if you don't have toddlers or throw lots of tupperware parties then you can disregard the Miele/ Euro machines not drying.

THEY DRY DISHES and GLASSES JUST FINE !

What they often have trouble with is plastic items that have lips/ridges/channels that trap lot of water. The drying system has trouble dealing with this copious amnt. of water. Frankly, there are some plastic items that a conventional bake drying system with an exposed element will have problems with too. If you have these nothing is going to be "good enough " for you.

If you want a DW that will last 20years then a Miele or one of the two Bosch units made in Germany (the ones that cost $1500 + like a Miele) are your best bet.

They don't cost more simply because Mr. Bosch and Mr. Miele's yachts are larger than Mr. GE's or Maytag's.

Mr. Maytag's Yacht was at sea, huge storm came up and the Yacht got swallered up by a "Whirpool"!!!!

DWers that don't have heated dry require rinse aid to get dry immediately after the cycle. The Miele/Somat brand rinse aid works really well and leaves no chemical smell or taste and passes strictest German/European laws for safety.

However,platics and dishes with deep recesses may contain a droplet or two of moisture.

If you get the Miele Diamond it has an auto-open door feature that allows moisture to escape immediately at the end of the cycle allowing for drying that is just as effective as heat dry.

Regarding issues 1,3,4,and 5 I think Miele is clearly superior.

Regarding issue 6 the cavity in the KA is a bit wider and deeper but we are talking fractions of an inch.Yes, Miele middle rack is adjustable and can be removed. Miele third rack features depend on the model. Less expensive ones half can be removed,more expensive a third can be removed, a third is adustable and can be moved out of the way.

People have been moving away from KA on this board recently do to new vent design.I have not read all the post but you can google "kitchenaid vent gardenweb" and read all about it.

Probably not a concern, you may also want to google "Bosch dishwasher smell." I think it is a result of using too little water by people using the "half-load" and "eco" mode too aggresively.

Good luck!

The German made Bosch dishwashers have been discussed thoroughly here.

I think they fall into the almost as good as Miele but not quite.

The water softner for example.In the Bosch you are supposed to test your water and set the level of softning.

In the Bosch a sensor measures the hardness and manipulates throughout the cycle for optimal results. According to Miele at least a water hardness level of 0 is not superior for all segments of wash cycle.

With Miele you get Miele service with Miele' own employees,at least in most of the country.

And Miele makes more of their parts in-house resulting in higher quality parts.

Thanks for the excellent replies. FWIW, the model we are considering is the Miele Dimension Plus model.

To address your requirements 1 thru 6:
1. They all clean exceptionally well.
2. They all dry well. The KA uses an element. Bosch and Miele use condensation. Condensation is not as fast but almost as effective. Certainly better on your dishes.
3. Miele heats using a thermostat up to 170 degrees. Some Bosch's also. KA heats water 20 degrees more than the intake temp from your hot water heater (usually 120). No comparison here.
4. American made dishwashers last on average half as long as Miele. Bosch's made in Germany also last significantly longer than KA.
5. See 4 above
6. All have removable racks in most models.

"I think they fall into the almost as good as Miele but not quite. "

I think those 2 models ARE every bit as good as Miele. However, at the prices they charge for them it's not really worth the downside of dealing with BSH vs. Miele. Bosch is really a low middle of the road brand - if one wants a TOL model get it from someone who specializes in that.

dodge - LMAO !

I think those 2 models ARE every bit as good as Miele.

IMO,almost but not quite.

Built-in water softer is better and if you inspect them the quality of the parts is not quite as good as Miele.

The Miele Dimension Plus does not use condensation to dry dishes. It has a fan that comes on during the drying cycle and during the last part of the cycle, it will open the door about 4-5 inches while the fan continues to run. (there is a mechanism that pushes the door open) It's fast and very effective. Plastic and everything else gets very dry. This feature alone puts it above the other brands.

Bosch is a good 2nd choice, but IMO, it isn't as well built as the Miele.

The KA will have low end whirlpool parts inside. They break. Sadly the GE washers of 25 years ago are nothing but a memory now. The major big box brands are not going to last like they once did.

They all clean exceptionally well.

I think they all clean basic dishes moderately soiled well.

When it comes to baked on starches I think Miele does a better job.

Glass,crystal,and fine china I think Miele does a much better job.

Until this year Riedel always specified a seven step hand washing procedure. For the first time in Riedel's 250 year history they gave their seal of approval to an automatic dishwasher,Miele.

I have not seen or have any experience with the German made Bosch units, but by gut would tell me to agree with deeageaux. I think the German made Bosch's would be 98% as good as Miele but not *AS* good. The wonderful thing with Miele is they are not a publicly traded company with shareholders to please. And do you think making the best machines please shareholders? Profit and share value please share holders. As mentioned Miele makes a lot of their parts in house, this certainly add's to the cost but also gives ultimate quality control. They have a very tight grip on the entire production chain right down to the end user.

I wouldn't give a KA dishwasher a second look for the reasons already mentioned. They are not in the same league at all.

"KA heats water 20 degrees more than the intake temp from your hot water heater (usually 120)."

This is incorrect. Any DW, including Miele and Bosch, regardless of initial temperature of incoming water, will immediately find that water temperature reduced dramatically by the mass of the cool dishes in the machine. If interior is SS, the drop will be greater still. All DW's have to heat that water back up to target temps....and all of them do that just fine.

Same thing happens to a lesser degree upon repeated fills after drains. The water between the machine and water heater sits in the pipes and cools down. Subsequent fills will begin at those lower temperatures. With the new machines using so little water for filling, usually these refills are at temperatures far below the water heater's setting. As initially, all machines will heat that water back up to nominal target settings.

I don't think what you said about water heating is correct. When I had a Kitchen Aid when heat was selected, it simply added 35 minutes to the wash cycle and turned on the heating element for this long. Thus, it could only heat the water based on incoming temps.

Contrast this to the Bosch and Miele that use a sensor to measure the water temp. They heat the water to the exact temp and hold it there.

That is a big difference in the design.

KA heats water 20 degrees more than the intake temp from your hot water heater (usually 120)."

This is incorrect. Any DW, including Miele and Bosch, regardless of initial temperature of incoming water, will immediately find that water temperature reduced dramatically by the mass of the cool dishes in the machine. If interior is SS, the drop will be greater still. All DW's have to heat that water back up to target temps....and all of them do that just fine.

Asolo, what is incorrect about the above statement.

I didn't state the whole technical process in regards to load properties and heat absorption, residual heat loss, timer specifications verse thermostats, water intake length, cycle selection, refill and drain, stainless verse plastic verse glass verse china verse metal and on and on and on. I only stated the ends to the means.

antss,
You said "If you want a DW that will last 20years then a Miele or one of the two Bosch units made in Germany (the ones that cost $1500 + like a Miele) are your best bet. "

Looking on the AJ Madison site, all of the 800 series Bosch dw's all under $1000. Are these the ones you are talking about?

Thanks.

kmg - no

"""Any DW, including Miele and Bosch, regardless of initial temperature of incoming water, will immediately find that water temperature reduced dramatically by the mass of the cool dishes in the machine. If interior is SS, the drop will be greater still."""

If this is true, what temperature does cold water drop too when the intake temp is less than 60 degrees (connected to cold in the NW) and the SS interior is at room temperature?

I will stand corrected when corrected correctly. As noted above, Miele does have a model that doesn't use condensation drying. Touche

"If this is true, what temperature does cold water drop too when the intake temp is less than 60 degrees (connected to cold in the NW) and the SS interior is at room temperature?"

Of course I was assuming -- but did not state -- that I was beginning from the your post about 120F incoming water, or at least water heated to some degree from hot-supply from a water heater. Could have said it better, I suppose, but I think you're being pedantic and I think you know it.

I am aware of none of the DW's mentioned that will not heat the water internally to nominal target temperatures controlled by internal thermostats if they are operating properly -- including the KA. If they didn't none of them would clean dishes worth a damn and they all do. Some Mieles are unique in that they allow or even recommend cold-water connections so I would assume they likely have more robust heating controls, but don't really know. All or most of the others have hot water connections and their manuals recommend running the tap until hot water comes out before starting the machines.

I learn new stuff all the time. Maybe this is one of those moments.

Basically aprince said KA heats incoming water to 20 degrees above incoming temperature. Basically says Miele has a thermostat and KA either doesn't or, if it does, has a 20-degree limitation.

Basically, bernise6 said her KA heats for 35 minutes and that's it.

I'm saying every DW I'm aware of uses a thermostat to raise the temperature of the water within it to a minimum cleaning temperature. That temperature during washing is typically 120F minimum. Mid-range machines and up that have "heat boost" and/or "sanitary" cycles can raise to 140 and 160F range. I'm also saying incoming water temperature, even if at 120F or above, is inconsequential because of the heat loss effected immediately upon the cycles beginning. The machine itself is capable of raising the temperatures into effective temperature ranges on it's own -- which it does via thermostatic controls. I'm saying this is not unique to Miele. And I'm saying if the machine isn't doing this, it is not operating as it should.

If I'm wrong about this and the KA doesn't do this like every other machine, I'm prepared to accept correction.

I checked the Whirlpool diagnostics manual that I had left over from my old Kitchenaid. This document covers both the plastic tub and stainless steel models. The same wiring, CPU, sensors, pump, electromechanics, etc are used in all models of Whirlpool, KA, and Kenmore. The only difference between these machines are some options, racks, sprayers, and of course finish and logo.

There is a sensor that measures water temperature. It does two things. It checks for overheating, and it trips the water heating cycle if the set point temp is met. For most washing it's set to trip between 135-140 degrees. For sanitize its 160. Plastic tub models are limited to 140. However, it will only attempt to reach this temperature for set number of minutes. If this isn't reached during that time, a timer goes off and it moves on to the next cycle regardless of the temperature.

Thus, if the washer is plumbed to the hot water line I don't see where it would fail to reach the listed temp unless there is a long pipe run to the hot water heater. In that case the dishwasher might fill up with cold water before the hot water reached it. This could be mitigated by running the faucet first.

The newer Whirlpool base design, in use since the early 2000s, may work differently than this.

Thanks for response. I was aware of -- but didn't mention -- the time-out limitation. I have a couple of Whirlpools at different locations connected to hot water supply. I am aware of the commonality of components with KA. In almost 20 years of regular use with older and newer machines I've never had them fail to reach target temps. That is why I took issue with aprince statement.

I am in the same situation. One thing I am considering (living in SoCal) as part of my dishwasher purchase is the hard water factor. I understand that the KUDE series of Kitchen Aids have a built-in softener, which is really important since our hard water is at 16 which is really hard! Anyone have any thoughts as it relates to this issue?

The thing about the Mieles that connect to the cold water line is that in a lot of European apartments, the hot water heater is in line on the pipes and only feeds a single tap, on demand. Dishwashers and washing machines are made to heat their own water because there's no hot water tank to draw on.

I don't know of any dishwasher that can entirely dry the water in the curled up rim of a container or the ridge on the upturned bottom of a bowl, mug or glass. Sometimes they angle the racks hoping that will make the ridges drain. That partly works, but then you have difficult, highly angled racks that limit what things fit nicely, and it doesn't completely solve the problem.

OTOH, condensation/convection drying dishwashers rely on the mass of the crockery and metals to retain heat from the water. If you have a lot of plastic and glass, small plates, light weight or wood or plastic handled flatware, no pots, etc., they don't dry as well. The rinse aid helps a lot. It's a surfactant that breaks the surface tension of the water and causes it to fall off, rather than glomming onto the dishes and glasses in big blobs. When a lot of people say that these dry just fine, on close questioning they admit that the dishes aren't entirely dry, but they're dry enough. That's not every model or household, just a general impression of everything that's come my way over the last four years. The more heavy things you put it, the better they'll dry.

Dimitrig, if your cast iron (I assume enamelled?) goes in the DW, I don't think you'll need to worry much about your glass getting dry. Miele and KA (Whirlpool and Jenn-Air are the same) are generally the most liked DWs, followed at some distance by Bosch and Asko. European dishwashers tend to be a little smaller than American ones. It's best to take your dinner plates and other large items to the store to try them out. That's advice I got here. :) Also, because of the additional insulation and all, the American dishwashers now seem to hold less than the older models. They don't have a large a space for the works however, so have more height in the tub.

sjp3ip:
I think you have it backwards. The only washers that I am aware of that have the water softener built in are the Miele and the 800 plus Bosch. KA's don't.

I forgot to mention above that American DW's with heating coils usually have an option to do condensation drying (though they're not completely optimized for it), and don't do as good a job of drying as the older models.

There has also been a big change in dishwasher detergents, mandated by law and conscience, so that they're all made now with enzymes and no phosphates. You have to feed the enzymes (put in dishes with crud on them for the enzymes to attack). Report is, if you don't do that the enzymes can try to eat your dishes themselves. The best rated (here) new detergent is Finish Quantum with Powerball. People also like Method, as well as Miele's own and Somat (which is European and not widely available). Cascade is iffy. Some love it, some hate it. The packets or tablets seem to work better than the powders or gels, though some people cut them in half and still have good results.

Current dishwashers are very different than the older ones. I liked the performance of my ugly old DW. Make sure your wife understands that by changing she'll be getting a very different thing altogether and will have to learn a new way of doing dishes.

I don't think there's anything new about using a Euro DW vs my 25 y.o. GE that we replaced with the Optima apart from the racking. Don't understand what plllog means by "learn a new way of doing dishes."

Miele does not offer a consumer dishwasher that is NSF rated if that matters. Bosch offers it on all of their upper end models. NSF rating means the dishwasher has a final rinse temp that exceeds 170F to ensure killing 99.9% of any remaining pathogens.

We are a household of 8, soon to be 9. We have had a Bosch 800 series for three years now. We do AT LEAST three loads of dishes a day. So we have around 2500-3000 loads on the dishwasher. We use the sanitize option on EVERY cycle.

We also looked at Miele. The warranty on the Bosch was longer. The place we purchsed from was also the repair site so there were no issues there. In three years we have had ONE service call and that was for the backlight on the front mounted display. One call and two days later and it was repaired.

Keep in mind that NONE of the Euro models have a food grinder so you can not put pieces of veggies in them. The veggies will most likey wind up sitting in the filter cup in the bottom of the dishwasher.

I would NEVER buy a US branded dishwasher. They are all crap. Every single one of them. Even some of the lower end Bosch you need to stay away from. The 800 and 800 plus series are the well made Bosch units.

I think all of the Miele units are top tier as well. We as a family could not cost justify the Miele. Warranty was the same. The Bosch also had the sanitary function which was VERY important to us.

The only Miele that has an NSF rating is their commercial unit which starts around $5K.

""KA heats water 20 degrees more than the intake temp from your hot water heater (usually 120)""

Asolo said, "Could have said it better, I suppose, but I think you're being pedantic and I think you know it."

and..."""I am aware of none of the DW's mentioned that will not heat the water internally to nominal target temperatures controlled by internal thermostats if they are operating properly -- including the KA."""

KA, Whirlpool, Jenn Air, Amana, GE, and Frigidaire DO NOT use a thermostat to determine cycle temps, however, they may use them as safety shut offs if temp. somehow exceeds operational controls. Pedantic enough for you? I will be more pedantic.

In fact, they are designed, utilizing a timer mechanism to heat temp from 120 to 140 in most cycles but may in fact heat higher depending on the cycle chosen. THEREFORE; if your water heater is set below 120 (very common in my neck of the woods, i.e., extreme green), the target temp for the cycle selected will not be met. Plumbing dramatically affects this also. "Run your faucet for a moment" is the common statement I hear addressing this in the owners manual. What is the point of the delay wash then? Who's getting up in the middle of the night to run the faucet? Not me. Is that pedantic?

Therefore, Asolo, If YOUR water heater is at 120, you have nothing to worry about because as you said "In almost 20 years of regular use with older and newer machines I've never had them fail to reach target temps.That is why I took issue with aprince statement."""

You didn't take issue with my statement...,I generally scoff or disregard that, you said it was incorrect.

@ aprince....

Well, I dunno, then. All I can say is that over the last two decades (and more) I've owned or worked with KA's, Whirlpools, GE's, and Kenmores and every one delivered actual temps of 120 ("normal"), 140 ("heat boost"), and 155-160 ("Sanitary") depending on the cycles selected and apparently regardless of the incoming water temps. Those incoming temps have ranged from northern-tier cold of maybe 50-60F through water heater settings of 130-140F run hot at the tap. If there's only a timer and no thermostatic control device in there somewhere governing those selected temperatures within +/- a couple of degrees I guess I don't get it.

The otherwise estimable plllog perpetuated a myth by saying: "You have to feed the enzymes (put in dishes with crud on them for the enzymes to attack). Report is, if you don't do that the enzymes can try to eat your dishes themselves."

Firstly, enzymes are not living organisms; you can't "feed" them. Secondly, enzymes are not used up by dirt; they act as catalysts (just like the catalyst in your car exhaust is not used up). Thirdly, enzymes cannot and do not attack dishes of any kind.

What etches glass in a DW is the strong alkaline salts (like oven cleaner) in the dishwasher powder/tablet. If there is not enough dirt on the dishes to react with, the alkalinity can stay at a level that is sufficient to damage glass. If you insist on rinsing all the dirt off dishes before they go into the DW, you can mitigate this effect by using less powder (or splitting a tablet) or by adding a small quantity of white vinegar or proprietary equivalent such as "Lemishine" to neutralize part of the alkaline salts.

"Miele does not offer a consumer dishwasher that is NSF rated if that matters. "

I'm not sure why it would. If you're REQUIRED to have that rating you need a commercial DW anyway.

FWIW , Miele's 8xx generation of DW's do have a 170 deg. water temp on the pots & pans and intensive settings. I'm not positive about the 2xxx and 5xxx generations off hand, but I'd be very surprised if they don't have a setting that goes that high too.

Thanks for your opinions all.

I opted to go with the Miele Dimension Plus model. I had it installed last week. Dishes get very dry, although I am still learning how to best load it.

I opted for the 5 year service agreement from Miele for peace of mind. It is very quiet for those who care. It's also rather stylish. My dad, who usually doesn't notice these things, commented on it. He said "That's a nice dishwasher." I told him: "Well, we'll see how well it performs" and he said "Who cares how well it performs? It looks great!"

However, I was not all that happy with the installation process. First Miele said they would be out on Saturday. They then changed it to Wednesday saying that the first date was just an estimated date. The installer showed up by himself. He said that usually it is a two man crew, but his partner was on vacation.

He pulled out my old dishwasher and we discovered (not surprisingly) that it was hardwired. This is supposed to be okay. However, there was no ground wire. He called his supervisor and they said they could not perform the install that way. He said he'd have to come back (in about 6 days!). I told him I could not go without a dishwasher for 6 days, so he installed the dishwasher and we connected it with an extension cord to a nearby outlet so that at least he could test that it was working correctly. He said that Miele will not do any carpentry, electrical work, or anything else, really. What they mostly do is level it. This was a surprise for the price. Meanwhile, I called an electrician. Luckily, the electrician was able to come out in less than 2 hours, but the Miele tech said he had to leave before then. He said he would sign off on the install and write "Customer responsible for providing grounded outlet." He also could not get the toekick in because of my cabinetry. He tested the dishwasher (worked fine) and left.

While waiting for the electrician, I uninstalled the dishwasher myself given what I had watched him do. The electrician found that the outlet was indeed grounded, but that there just wasn't a ground wire run in the Romex. He said it would have been trivial to install a new grounded wire. I asked him to switch to a receptacle, which he did in about 15 minutes. I then reinstalled the dishwasher myself.

However, prior to reinstalling I read the manual VERY CAREFULLY and the dishwasher was not really installed in the BEST way. I won't go into details, but the way it was installed was considered "acceptable" by Miele, but not "preferred." I have no idea why it wasn't installed in the preferred manner, but I just reinstalled it the way my tech did except that I was able to fit it into the cabinets much more evenly and (IMO) better-looking. (The tech said "I tried, but there's only so much I can do with your cabinets as they are.") I also noticed I am missing some small parts that should have been included (screw covers/plugs and some other misc. small parts I can't recall right now) and I will call Miele and ask for those. I still am left with installing the toekick (I have a custom one) myself. The tech told me how he'd do it and I will follow his advice, but he said he's not allowed to do it.

Now the fun part: I ran the dishwasher and the whole underside of my sink flooded! I had not flooded when he had run it. I had no idea where the leak was and I was filled with dread. Every time I ran the dishwasher (as a test) it would leak a few tablespoons of water under the sink where the drain attaches to the disposal.

Long story short, I disconnected everything and found little styrofoam balls in the disposal. Also, when I ran the disposal I heard a crunch. Fishing around, I pulled out a plastic circle about 1/2 inch in diameter. I removed that and now the dishwasher drains fine. I think this was something he was supposed to remove.

Later on, I called the installer the appliance store uses and they said that they used to be certified Miele, but that Miele took all the work in-house. They said that if they had done the install then they would have been able to do whatever cabinetry and electrical (and gas for appliances that need it) was required, but that I would not be able to get the extra warranty from Miele. Be aware of this! Overall, I liked my technician (seemed friendly, honest, and very hard-working), but I do not feel I got the level of service I was expecting.

As far as the actual machine, it is great so far and I feel I made a good choice.