geez, if you want a builder box then buy a merit. If you want a better fireplace then buy the elite series. It doesnt matter what wall there located on, as far as installation there all the same. Lennox in the hearth industry are not as good as some other brands, your other thread had tons of different brands to look at. Lennox is in the bottem of the barrell as far as im concerned, but they do make SOME nice fireplaces. once again, every manufacture makes every thing from a buider box to a high end, high heat, great looking unit. You choose. You get what you pay for.

AHHH - a new term - builder box. Can I assume a builder box is the standard term for a fireplace that is on the cheaper side and not known as a "show piece"??

Sort of like when they wanted to put in a Goodman furnace? Goodmans are "builder furnaces"?

NOW - I'm getting somewhere!

You see I'm struggling with this whole building thing and trying to separate "building" things and REAL things!

On a side note it FEELS like we're not paying ANYTHING since it is included in the final price for the house. So a few hundred dollar upgrade is painless . . . . sort of.

Thanks and I did not mean to have that sound condescending. You made things much more clear!

You should post your question on Hearth.com.

do you want heat? Good looking logs? if the answer is yes, dont buy the builder box. Builder box is the term for cheap fireplace, most folks who use there fireplace end up wanting to change them. Its common for people to come in and ask me if they can upgrade there logs... they ask me how to get more heat.. they ask me if they can increase the flame hight.. the answer is always no, its a complete gut job including a pipe switchout. SO go to a dealer, look at it burn, feel the heat. If you like what you see, buy it. DO NOT buy a fireplace site unseen, expecially a builder box.

grinder--I'm not a fireplace expert, but I've lived with a new builder-grade Merit in my new (production) home for a single heating season. In hindsight, I would have deleted that option from the spec sheet and used the wall space for something useful like another sofa or projection HDTV. I don't know whether the install was flawed or the Merit is bad design (doubt that), but I've had to use magnetic sheets on the lower louvers to stop the air infiltration. I've also added chain operators to open the trap doors at the top of the unit to make it more of a vent-free unit with great heat output. My advice to you is if you really want the direct vent Merit, insist that it be installed properly (I know that sounds ridiculous, but you have to mention it). The better alternative if possible is to have a traditional masonry fireplace built, but that is costly. That way you could choose to burn wood (not recommended) or convert to ventless gas log set (like I did in previous home). Good luck.

mtnstoveguy--Do you sell/service fireplaces? Sounds like it since your recommendation is to rip everything out and buy again (which helps your bottom line greatly).

I know the installer has been installing fireplaces for 25 years so he might have a clue. I'm thinking your problem was an installation problem.

You comment "insist that it be installed properly" is actually not odd at all. somethings you need to tell the builder to GET IT RIGHT as it is a known problem area. Other things like the furnance you figure they will get it right in the first place

speedmaster, your a hack. Dont start with me. You think i have a chance to sell anyone here anything?? LMAO. Im here to protect people from the type of advice you give.
You proped open the expansion vents on your fireplace to make it vent free.. yea people shoud take advice from you. Dont get offended when you offer advice on something that you no nothing about. MY credintals are 10 years in the insdusty, whats yours? You think because your a fireplace owner you can come on a fireplace site and offer advice that is not within your scope to advise on? These things burn peoples houses down.
My recomendation is to rip something cheap out if you want something better. Dont give advice if you dont know what your talking about. You can kill people that way. I hope to god people dont start opening up the expansion doors to "get more heat"
by the way, your messing with the combustion air ratio and making the clearances different behind the box, you have voided your listing for your fireplace by modifying it, and if you burn it down you insurance company is going to give you the finger.

This is one of the reasons I like WOOD. You get real heat.

When I built in PA we had 2 Heatolator fireplaces installed by the builder. After a few years we installed an Avalon woodstove in the one in the living room. It heated the whole house. We used the fireplace in the dining room for holidays and when we had friends over for dinner. It was a great touch for dinner. But the units were "builder boxes" and we knew they wouldn't last forever. We installed the stove in 1990 and it's still in use today with the people that bought the house. And the fireplace in the dining room still gets only occasional use. So it'll last for a long, long time.

But if I were to build again and have any kind of fireplace installed today I would go to a STOVE SHOP and talk to a DEALER, not the builder. Builders want to save time AND make as much profit as possible. So they will always try to talk you into a cheaper unit for the maximum price.

Well, gotta go, it's 13 below outside and I should put another log in the stove. Because it's getting to be about 70 in the house and I'm not gonna fire up the furnace.

"Builders want to save time AND make as much profit as possible"

SOME builders - others just love building. They want to give you a fireplace but know MOST people building a house are outside of their budget so they need to give you a default fireplace.

They know if you REALLY are interested in a fireplace you will do the research and come back to them.

What I have found out is that Lennox fire box's are like Bose sound systems. Cheaply made but they make people that don't know any better like them.

90% of the time the user is happy . . until he finds out there are much better products on the market.

Yeah, my builder put in a nice looking majestic fp. Later I found out it is only rated at 57% eff. I would never have bought it had I know better.

mountainstoveguy--You never answered my question: do you make money selling/servicing/ripping-out gas fireplaces? You should calm down . . . I'm not an idiot. If I want to improve the heating efficiency, I don't have to be a stove "expert" to do it. I have NOT told anyone to open the trap doors in their FPs. I have the CO monitors, but I don't have a gas cooktop or oven. I don't have moisture condensing on my 9-foot tall walls and windows. I don't have mold creeping about as some naysayers would scare you with. What I would like to see happen is the manufacturer's be required to cease and desist selling these highly inefficient (yet quite profitable) gas fireplace money pits. Like jasper mentions, the efficiencies on these units are abysmal and I believe they should have very limited applications.

First, stop implying that i spend my time here to make a buck. Thats rediculious and insulting.

Yes, im am in the industry, i manage a hearth shop.

Fireplace efficiencies can be low. ON PURPOSE. Builders are not inclined to buy heat efficient units because the btu factor for the home has been met by the furnace. Second, they go in bedrooms where efficieny is not wanted, just atmosphere, third, there is a whole mess of homes in the south that dont need heat at all, they want something to flip on during christmas time. There is a HUGE market for inefficient fireplaces.
What you need to know is that when you disturb air flow in a direct vent appliance by leaving the door open, or opening the expansion doors, you create hot spots in the unit. These hot spots can catch framing on fire. You also are running the unit out side of its listing, and like i said if there was a incident then your insurance company is NOT going to pay. Im not worried about moisture, im not worried about CO, ( i would be if i were you) If you want something better, then buy it. When you run a vented fireplace like a vent free, you risk alot. vent free fireplaces dont have flame impingment like vented fireplaces do. When you turn a vented fireplace into a unvented one you are not getting complete combustion like you are on a vent free and a cook top. Its your house, and you obviuosly dont need a nanny telling you what to do. I do think its irresponsibe to put yourself and your family at risk.

Fireplaces have less then a 30% margin, some have in the low 20's. Where we make money is venting.
You should have dont the proper research on your fireplace before you had the builder put it in.

Rule #1 - this is my thread and only I can be condescending - not that anybody has been.

If somebody does something that hurts himself because of something he read on a forum - I will not shed a tear - that's just dumb and I know a movie he could get into.

I have more of a problem with people giving strait up bad advice, and then accuse the whistle blower of having a alterior motive. There is plenty of things wrong with modifying a engineered appliance, which i have already touched on.
I dont have time to sugar coat my answers on here, as you know i participate in other hearth forums, and work.
I think your thread has been answered. I dont know where other experts are on this. SeattlePioneer, garyl or the like. There are experts here, just not as many as on other forums.
I think i will end this with a big :)

Mountainstove guys comments on fireplace efficiencies are right on.

The downside of high efficiency fireplaces is just as he says ----often you can't leave them on long before they will start overheating a room.

My favorite example of that is when I was doing repairs on the direct vent, high efficiency fireplace on the 12th floor suite of a large downtown hotel. The hotel manager came in to plead with me to turn the heat down on the fireplace, "Our guests come in for a romantic weekend, and 15 minutes later they have to turn on the AIR CONDITIONING!"

Heh, heh! The fire department required them to have a sealed combustion fireplace, so they had no choice but to install a high efficiency fireplace. But it wasn't really appropriate for the purpose they wanted it for.

And user inspired modifications to a gas fireplace are a no no. I have seen many, and none were well advised. Several compromised the fireplace so badly that my recommendation was to tear it out and start over or to turn it into a fish tank.

Seattle Pioneer

I'm no fireplace expert, but there is some well-meaning misinformation here.

On several other forums people have said that if you do not follow manufacturer's recommendations, your insurance will decline coverage.

My brother, as general counsel for an environmental engineering firm, handles all their insurance and legal issues. He has co-authored a book on legal questions for design professionals. He says that insurance companies have to pay off even if you do not follow code or manufacturer's specs.

His exact words were: "Insurance companies insure you from your own mistakes. Otherwise no one would buy insurance."

So the "If you do something wrong insurance won't cover you" statement is wrong.

Having said that, it is foolish to modify any combustion equipment. You're dealing with heat and CO, which can cause loss of life and home in addition to improper operation.

The statement that anyone can install a furnace is unfortuate. Most HVAC equipment is improperly sized and much of it is poorly installed, and it does make a difference. This stuff, done right, is very tricky. Spend a few minutes on heatinghelp.com to see what I mean.

>>

Oh, I don't know. I imagine there are limits beyond which insurance companies will willingly pay off in the face of the willfull foolishness of their insureds.

However, the liability of the manufacturer of the fireplace only extends as far as a properly installed and maintained fireplace. Gas fireplaces have to meet pretty rigorous standards to be certified, and manufacturer are generally liable for damages if their equipment causes harm IF it has been properly installed and maintained.

And if it has been properly installed and maintained it generally will work properly (not always) and be safe (almost always). Modifications to fireplaces will, in my experience, often cause possible hazards to occupants and fairly often cause the equipment to work poorly.

If you accept my experience with gas fireplaces as having a degree of validity, the prudent consumer will make a point of having their equipment properly installed and maintained, and avoid modifications to it in most cases.

Seattle Pioneer