Reminds me of the government's plan (if that's not too strong a word) to ban incandescent light bulbs. I'll probably hoard some if that happens. There are some places I don't want to use compact fluorescents, at least not the ones presently available. Hopefully LED technology will mature soon and become a fully viable option.

I think we will see all kinds of things similar with the new administration coming in as well.

Yeah, this thread could easily drift off into a belly-aching session about guvmint regulations...but I hope it won't. My point is that the market is still free to produce washers whose consumption is determined almost entirely by performance requirements. There is still the Federal Standard requirement of 1.26 Modified Energy Factor, but that's too lax to have any real effect, especially for HE machines.

Feel free to hope. What's to stop the government from doing to appliances what it did to toilets and shower heads? Fortunately there will be one national standard, unlike the multitude automobile manufacturers may have to face. Oh, and nevermind that people have been falling ill from contaminated peanut products.

One thing that I noticed is that these tax credits only apply to appliances manufactured in the United States, so that leaves LG, and Samsung out. Whirlpool manufactures top loaders here in the States, but they make their front loaders in Germany and Mexico. I wonder if they'll consider bringing front loader production back to the USA.

Ahhh...so it's greed (I mean "incentive")driving manufactures to exceed Energy Star standards so they get a bigger kick back from the government.
That makes all the sense now as to why new HE washers use so incredibly small amounts of water.
As suburbanmd states, I think we should have the option to either purchase machines that use more water per cycle overall or at least give us a button to use more water per cycle and charge a little more for the option to compensate for the tax loss a manufacture would lose.

There are *many* choices for traditional full-fill agitator toploaders still on the market.

Well, I don't really understand why people have so may problems with rinsing and cleaning performance of HE washers.
I am using very small amounts of detergent and my washer cleans and rinses very well. There is always the option to add the extra rinse, but I hardly ever use it. It's just not necessary. I use the Sears powder and it doesn't leave residues in the washer or the clothes.
BTW, I have the Bosch Nexxt 500 plus.

We also have no problems with our Miele W4840, especially once the rinse setting was changed in firmware. It was OK as delievered, but does outstanding rinses with the change. It seems that getting the right detergent in the right quantity is a key factor to success and that may be different depending on your needs, the machine your using and your water chemistry.

Question regarding the bill mentioned in the lead-off post... When you follow the links from that page you see it was passed by the House, but there isn't any info about further action. Did some aspect of this even become law or is this a reflection of a desire by the House which went nowhere?

Sometimes it takes one party to lead (or provide incentives) before improvements in energy/resource efficiency can take place. You can't just turn on the research and development spigot when gas goes over $4/gallon and the market finally "demands" new solutions. By then it's too late. At the same time it doesn't make sense to create regs that are too limiting. Maybe the Energy Star washer requirements have gone too far. Then again with a little time manufacturers can do amazing things. Someone mentioned toilets, and that is a great example. Our first 1.6g toilet which was produced right after the new reg went into effect was horrible beyond belief. A dozen years latter our new Toto dual flush works better than my parents 3.5g and 5.0g toilets from ages ago.

I think perhaps a more likely reason there's no demand for non-energy efficient machines is not because consumers are unaware of the tax credits available to manufacturers, but because most owners of the newer, more efficient machines are perfectly happy with the wash and rinse results they're getting. They're also quite content to enjoy the lower operating costs.

The only people who seem to be unhappy with the penny-pinching front loaders are the luddite-mentality types who can't stand that they're unable to see their laundry sloshing around in gallons and gallons of water.

Front loader machines have been the norm in Europe for decades. The technology is proven and has been delivering clean laundry using less water and energy for millions of Europeans for just as long. When I returned to the U.S. after living in Europe for a couple decades, I sought out a source for a European front-loader because my experience was that they cleaned and rinsed better than any American washer I'd ever used. I had no desire to revert to the water-guzzling, poorer-performing machines that I remembered from my pre-Europe days.

As for the tax credit...How does taking advantage of an incentive provided by the government in the form of a credit, equate to greed? When you file your income taxes, do you skip any credits to which you're entitled? I'm going to guess, no. To my way of thinking, an incentive to manufacturers is far preferable to a mandate or regulation.

Meeting Energy Star requirements also is a relatively cheap form of "greenwashing". Companies producing such washers can advertise that they meet Energy Star and can pat themselves on the back for being such good citizens of Planet Earth. That they do it by skimping on water or heat is a whole 'nother matter.

To my untrained eye, my link looks like a law that got passed. Do a Google search like

"modified energy factor" site:thomas.gov

and you'll find mere bills that are similar. I was looking for a law covering machines made outside the USA. Didn't find one. But I figure there's got to be a reason why Samsung, LG, et al are making washers that greatly exceed Energy Star requirements.

I'm perfectly happy washing in factory-set water levels, in my Miele W4840 with its effective internal heater. My beef is with the prevalence of crippled internal heaters, which are incentivized by the tax credits. Are tax credits the reason why Miele and Bosch were my only choices for a washer that is upfront about its temperature settings, and uses its internal heater to achieve them? It would be nice if we consumers knew how the market works, without having to be an expert in "gov docs".

P.S. Look at the endorsements in this thread: Two Miele, one Bosch, and one unspecified "European front-loader". Maybe it does pay to be a "Euro-snob" when it comes to laundry.

Wa8b is correct. Americans are brainwashed into thinking copious amounts of water are the only way to clean. Obviously they have never taken their clothes to a dry cleaner. It's not the "water" that cleans, it's the process.
What worries me is that people don't realize how precious water is going to become. In the near future "water" will be the new "oil". I live in a drought area and I know in the near future we will probably be rationed. Any thing I can do to cut down on water consumption is a good thing.
My utility companies track my consumption. Since switching to a FL my energy consumption has dropped, even though 3 of my kids and a friend of my daughter's have moved back home. And my clothes are clean, the washer is much quieter and gentler on the clothes.

Prior to the W4840 we had an Asko 1.7 kg FLer for about 13 years and a Danby for a couple. The Asko was truly of European heritage - the temps were settable in 10 degree C increments. It didn't use a lot of water, but still gave you the option to add more if you really wanted it, and you decided when to stop adding water. The default water level was perfect 98% of the time. With current day FLers people would kill to get that "default" water level. By current standards it would feel like an abundant amount of water few would complain about. This was a comforting Euro-washer experience. Maybe things have just advanced beyond that point, but today you sometimes wonder if the entire load has even gotten soaked with water. Sometimes it takes 6 minutes before that really happens. Things seem to get clean, so maybe this is just a perception problem.

suburbanmd,

Bosch and Miele are kinda upfront about the temps they use for the washes. In the case of Miele they weren't very upfront initially about the whole "normal" not using heater issue. My testing has also shown the firmware to be pretty primitive regarding a guaranteeing the temps. With only minor changes our machine plows through the cycle and doesn't modify time much to account for incoming water temps. Their ATC is VERY good so with a reasonable setup most people won't have issues as the initial fill can be pretty warm. My testing showed you really needed to manually choose the extended option with the 60C/140F "Hot" temp. For the "Very Warm" 50C/122F without the extended option the machine reaches that temp before the wash cycle finishes by a couple of minutes. If you've had different experiences I'd like to hear as it might indicate our machine needs a firmware upgrade.

Can't speak from personal experience about the Bosch, but unlike Miele they have joined the ranks of manufacturers who have down graded the temps associated with the words hot-warm-cold. They define xxsanitary as 170, kidscare as 150F, hot as 120F, warm as 90F and cold as 60F. They offer some high temps, but the most heavily used cycle temps are coolish by traditional standards.

The only reason I questioned if the bill originally mentioned was a law was because if you follow the link for "Bill Summary and Status" you only see that it was passed by the house. Might just be a limitation of that gov't website being limited to house actions without showing how things may have (or not) moved forward through the whole process. Still not clear to me if it's law or not.

They offer some high temps, but the most heavily used cycle temps are coolish by traditional standards.Gordon,

You bring out another point I need to mention. There is a "Hygiene" option in the latest firmware version of the W48XX Miele washers that the techs are now turning on as this monitors the amount of cold washes done and then notifies you to run a "Sanitize" cycle to help prevent anything undesirable from growing in the tub.

Very interesting point, about how long it takes to completely wet a load of clothes in today's FLs. Now, combine that with the very short wash cycles in some US-market machines. For example, the manual for the new Electrolux says "the heavy duty cycle provides 9-21 minutes of reversing tumble wash action for heavily soiled sturdy items such as jeans." How do you think that's going to work out? In contrast, the Miele W4840 manual says it "calculates the water absorbency of the laundry in the first 8 minutes."

Re Miele W4840 guaranteeing temperature: I've definitely seen a non-extended cycle pause at 0:50 to let the water heat. It might be a difference in the firmware. Or maybe it's just that the Miele uses "fuzzy logic" and acts differently in my plumbing setup, which is not reasonable and usually delivers tepid water to the machine.

fahrenheit_451, can you give us more info on firmware updates: What's the date and revision number of the latest update? What does it change? What was changed in earlier updates, and how do we determine the revision we're currently running? I'd like to think some annoyances might be fixed. e.g. the Pause function flakiness. And why does the Comforters cycle spin between Venting and Main Wash, but not between Main Wash and the first Rinse?

What's the date and revision number of the latest update? What does it change?I do not have the date, or the number (I wrote it down somewhere); this update came out at the beginning of 2008 and remains unchanged today.
What was changed in earlier updates, and how do we determine the revision we're currently running?This can only be accomplished through a factory Miele service tech with proprietary Miele software via a connection of the laptop to your machineÃthere is no other way of updating/uploading firmware version. There were a couple of features added, one being the Hygiene feature; revisions to the actual cycles themselves might have also been done, but only Miele knows the details.
I'd like to think some annoyances might be fixed. e.g. the Pause function flakiness.Please read my post here; Miele W4800 light and start switch problems?
And why does the Comforters cycle spin between Venting and Main Wash, but not between Main Wash and the first Rinse?I have used the Comforter cycle on our W4840 and it works well, but I have not followed what is happening during the cycle; Miele might have revised this cycle in the firmware, but again only Miele knows the specifics and you would have to tryout the new firmware to determine if is different from what you currently have, sorry.

Speaking of energy. Do the "sanitary" cycles on HE washers use lots of energy or no?

Sanitary cycle obviously uses more energy than a hot or warm wash in an HE machine. But perhaps less than a hot wash in a agitator TL, where the tub is filled to the top with hot water from the tap (which did take energy to heat, but it happened in the domestic water heater, not in the washer). And that's without considering the fact that the clothes washed in the agitator TL will come out wetter, and make the dryer consume more energy.

Speaking in approximate numbers...

A sanitary wash adds about 1 hour to a normal wash cycle. Much of that time is bringing the wash temp up to sanitary temps. The internal heater uses about 1000 watts of power, so the sanitary cycle adds about 1 KWH of power used. For us that is about 17 cents worth of electricity. Your not going to break the bank doing a sanitary cycle once in a while.

Haven't done a comforter cycle in a while, but isn't the spin between venting and wash there to help wet the comforter completely? I would guess the lack of spin before first rinse is by design. Probably has something to do with fabric care and not over stressing the comforter.

suburbanmd,

Glad to hear you see a pause at 50 minutes. Even though we have the machine in a 2nd floor laundry room, hot water from the tap reaches the machine very quickly. The hose fitting start to feel hot after about 5-10 seconds of fill. Maybe that is why we don't see the pause.