There's really not a big market for used HVAC systems, but you could probably get something for your XL14i (though I high doubt $1.5k) The heat pump sounds like the best route to go as far as price and ROI goes. What size system are you looking at? Not all XL16i matchups are good for heating (low on BTU's). Also, I'm a bit disappointed at the fact that the XL16i can't easily make use of the VisionPRO IAQ thermostat's abilities to slow the blower down to dehumidify on demand. It's dehumidification in first stage isn't impressive, either, and from what I've heard, the XL15i is better at dehumidifying (though I'd have to check the specs to know for certain). Nevertheless, the XL16i is a fine unit for most situations. The XL15i is a better unit all around in my opinion, despite it's lack of two-stage cooling and heating. Really need to know the model numbers of both units, which can be found on the units. They tell refrigerant type as well as sizing information. Also, how many BTU's do you currently have for heating? Heat pumps are sized for cooling load, not heating load. I like the dual fuel setup (oil backup) idea the best. I recommend using the VisionPRO IAQ thermostat to control it all if you can. And I think I'd go with the XL15i unit outside. Sorry for throwing a ton of info at you!

I can answer some of your questions. My boiler is rated at 207,000 BTU's. This was sized for future use of heating my basement and loft area. I have a 1.25 gallon nozzle and it has a max size of 1.7. I have a Vision Pro 8000 but you are right the IAQ is worth the upgrade as well. Since the first priority of the heat pump for me is heating I want to make sure it will reduce my oil bill significantly otherwise it's not worth it. I will need to contact my HVAC guy to get a model number and size. I found a website here that calculates the cost per BTU by fuel but is there anything that can take my current oil usage vs. heat pump and give me an idea of cost? I need to learn more about these units.

Thanks

Ryan is correct. The 16i can be weak on heating btu's. For a heat pump, you want as many heating btu's per the nominal rating. A 5-ton system should deliver 60,000 btu's and not 55,000 for example. Not sure why you need a dual stage compressor in the mountains.

I think that your electricity is cheap in the PA mountains. How much is your electricity delivered?

Good luck.

If you are in the area, there is a great New Jersey air conditioning repair company that would give you a free consultation and help you upgrade the most practical and economically savvy way.

They do both heating and cooling repairs and installations, and are very well educated on what works best for customers, depending on what they need.

Here is a link that might be useful: Browns Heating & Cooling

mikec

several questions.

what size is your XL14i?
R-410a refrigerant?
what is mdl number of your Trane air handler?
what is est cost of oil next heating season?
what is your electric rate and does your electric utility offer any rate incentive for HP heating?

how long do you expect to be in this home?

post back.

TD

If that 18k includes the loops, the Geo option sounds good. PA has a nice Energy Loan program that allows you to finance certain home improvements at a decent fixed rate over 3,5 or 10 years.

Although electric is relatively cheap now, I'm hearing some PA electric companies will be raising their rates as much as 30-40% in 2010 when the current tariff ends. If you go to an air-source heat pump, try to make sure you get maximum Btus (as others have mentioned) and the highest HSPF you can. Since you have the variable speed air handler, you should be able to search for the best matches on the ARI website.

TD

what size is your XL14i?
4 Ton
R-410a refrigerant?
Yes
what is mdl number of your Trane air handler?
4TEE3F65A 1000AB
what is est cost of oil next heating season?
At current price $6,400
what is your electric rate and does your electric utility
offer any rate incentive for HP heating?
It's a 2 tier rate but if I take my bill and divide it's $.10. The rate goes up in 2010 by 30% +. No they do not offer incentives.
how long do you expect to be in this home?
At least 10 more years

The largest Trane unit is 5 Ton at 65K BTU's. While the 5K price for the heat pump is attractive I think with the number of days we have below 30 degrees might be a trade off with the oil as a backup. The more I look into the Geo the better it looks. Does 18K for a closed loop system sound like a reasonable price tag? I don't think I can up with that much cash this year.

This is a really tough decision. Whoever thought oil would jump so far so fast.

Thanks

Mike

Can't go with the 4-ton XL16i with that big air handler, so you'd have to go with the 5-ton XL16i if you did want to go with the XL16i. The 4-ton XL15i will work fine with that air handler with 9.00 HSPF. I personally think the XL15i is a better unit. As I said, the 4-ton XL16i's heating performance (BTU's) is poor.

I'm confused by what you mean here: "The largest Trane unit is 5 Ton at 65K BTU's." Trane's 5-ton heat pumps put out less than 60,000 BTU's in many cases (5 tons = 60,000 BTU's). $18k sounds about in the ballpark for geo. It's expensive up front.

If I understand your position right, you are thinking that a heat pump with oil backup is a good way to go, correct? by "number of days we have below 30 degrees," do you mean a lot or few? A heat pump, properly sized and designed, with fossil fuel backup heat is a good setup to have in my opinion.

I'm trying to get the most bang for the buck and don't want to put in a third heating system (the one I choose 4 years ago is excellent, just not at $4.50 a gallon for oil). From what I've read on this site I need to look at what is most important. In my case heating. Between December and March we have many days below 30 degrees. Each winter does stand on it's own but I've lived here in Northeast PA for 20 years so the majority of them are cold. Like many people here I need to find a cheaper way of heating a 3000 sq ft home reasonably. If I go with a heat pump and for those months IÂm using mostly oil heat as a backup I may not see the savings I want. The 5K is in my budget so in two or three years I donÂt want to replace it again for a Geo. ItÂs a conundrum for me right now. I want to make the best inform decision. The help from this site is great.

I would really think long and hard about Geo. I think as rates go up even with electricity that Geo would be the best option for your situation long term. You would also get the majority of your hot water in the deal also. If you did choose to do the heat pump and have hot summers I would check into a waste heat recovery unit to put about 3-7 gallon per hour per ton in your water heater over the summer. Trevor Martin and a few others make waste heat recovery units. But then again these units work best on lower efficiency units. But also add 1-2 SEER points. I am trying to save for geothermal here in Missouri.

countryboymo....I've found that here in FL, the most bang for the buck is a heat pump with a 13 SEER a/c rating coupled with a HRU. As you point out, the HRU will bring the A/C efficienct to about the 15-16 SEER range (which would cost A LOT MORE to buy the 16 SEER system. And here in FL, provide almost all your hot water since the A/C runs most of the year (also works during heating season).

mikec

I am attaching a fuel comparison calculator which can be used as fairly close guide for potential fuel savings of HPs vs oil. Plug in the numbers. You will note that even straight electric baseboard heat is significantly lower than oil but HPs really offer significant savings. Assuming you are sized correctly, I would estimate conservatively savings of at least 50% over oil.That would be a very quick payback.

If you are only planning to be in home for up to 10 yrs and would not do geothermal until the following heating season, then I think your choice is fairly easy. Go with a properly sized XL15i HP. Really you can not afford to pass up the potential savings of a conventional air-to-air HP or GEO by postponing your decision. Why? Money down the drain. And one final thought. You could also pair Am Std Heritage 15(same as XL15i HP) with the air handler you have which gives you a little more flexibility and possibly a better price. Even with a small backup heat strip with a HP to extend heating range would still offer good savings.

Ductwork will need to be looked at if you go up from four ton to five ton.

If GEO, you better act quickly. You have some good choices with good savings potential.

IMO
Good LucK!

Here is a link that might be useful: Fuel Comparison Calculator

TD,

What you say makes sense. I found that calculator reading other posts. That's what got me thinking HP and GEO. I need to talk to my HVAC guy that did my current system. He did a first rate job. All of my ductwork is metal (my specs) and wrapped. Everyone who sees my home comments on the job. So if I understand you in your option you would spend the 5K now for the HP (save over the oil)and in two years upgrade again to a GEO if I can?

Thanks

Mike

mike,

my first choice would be geo, second would be the conventional HP matched to your existing air handler. With the HP you should easily save $3K over oil heat. With the geo, you will obviously have new equipment and your AC/air handler will be removed. With the conventional HP, you can utilize existing airhandler and the new HP condenser should be paid for in two years. That's pretty dad gum good. This would also give you an idea about HP heating and then you could decide later about GEO. But you definitely should do one or the other before the next heating season.

And I agree with Ryan-forget the XL16i for the XL15i and include the HW VisionPro IAQ stat.

IMO

Hi Mike,
We are a HVAC wholesaler which is located in CA, and we are carrying all the Trane models and series, and here is some information for you:

Trane XL15i 5 ton 2TWX5048A1000A R-22 16.50 seer 48,000BTU plus 10 year limited warranty on compresor, coil, and internal functiona parts (Residental Use)
Your cost is $3420.00

or,

Trane XL14i 5 ton 2TWX4060B1000A R-22 15.00 seer 60,000BTU plus 10 year limited warranty on compresor, coil, and internal functiona parts (Residental Use)
Your cost is $3410.00

Please feel free to contact us at admin@gsistore.com

Hope we are able to help you this.

Regards

In your area, your cold winter and snowfall will limit the overall savings potential of the air-source heat pump. The geo unit is out of the elements so it can produce more heat all winter long.

You have to check out the Energy Loan. They've developed a new category with lower rates for these higher cost improvements. You can spread out the cost over 10 years, so your monthly payments are covered by your yearly energy savings.

Here is a link that might be useful: Keystone Loan program

Maybe i should start selling a/c's to people who are looking for help on this forum...like gsistore's doing.

LMAO

Thanks for the information on the Keystone Loan Program. I want to get some more quotes from contractors on Geo. The contractor that I'm dealing with uses a company call ECONAR. Can you guys provide me with other companies that do Geo. Also how do I find a contractor. While I do have the guy I'm speaking to I would like to get more than one option and quote. A look through the yellow pages yielded nothing.

Thank again. And I do plan on doing one or the other before this years heating season.

I'm in pretty much the same boat and after looking at all options I think I'll go with a HP with electric strip heat and leave my oil boiler off until (wishful thinking) oil settles back down to be less than electric.

I'm looking at a SSZ160601A GOODMAN HP with matching Air Handler. From the http://www.ceedirectory.org list (ARI certification) I found that its specs are excellent with 16 SEER, HSPF of 9.75 and Capacity of 36,000 BTUh at 17 F. Best of all the price for both units together is about $3000 total!

GOODMAN is the 2nd largest manufacturer of HPs and is sold rebranded by a lot of companies. It offers a 10yr warranty and Lifetime on compressor... I just cannot see anything wrong with it...

comments (supporting or dissenting) are appreciated...

HTH

When looking at payback period for geo I also considered the difference between what I'd be paying to heat with a HP against the potential savings with geo. This lengthened the geo payback. I didn't simply use what I'm currently paying as the benchmark.

The (calculated) 2 yr payback on the HP really appeals to me. Who knows what other technology will be around in 2yrs, especially as energy rates surge... why lock into current technology? And if energy recoils, then all is still good if you kept your oil system.

HTH, YMMV