Software
Houzz Logo Print
tommmy2007

Lets talk Ducts.

17 years ago

I doing pretty good on figuring out what type of replacement AC system I need. Now I need some advice on ducts. I do all of my own work. I find it quit hard to trust sales people . I getting old (57)and this is probable my last shot at getting it right.

Existing ducts look pretty good to me they are made foil faced glass isolation about to 1 inch thick . There two areas that have flex duct which are R8 both newly replaced each about 8 foot max. I don't know what the top of the line duct system is made of. I am in Austin Texas in a 1000 sq ft wood bungalow 80+ years old under solid tree cover with tin roof.

With the current AC return air is about a possibly 25 foot long 18 inch flex duct. I thinking of reposition the air handler unit closer to the return filter/vent ( in the living room ceiling ) . I was told I need a short run of that return duct to remove or isolate the noise of the air handler from entering the house Via the return vent.

The house is almost 1000sqf The attic had one layer of R 13. Years ago in the attic I installed some huge salvage antique 1/1 windows. They are the size of standard door I made the window screens open like screen doors and they were used as freight doors. They are my vents I remove the glass windows during the summer. All the window in the house are original and rebuilt to be 100% functional with standard window screens so this means they leak and transmits heat. I am not going to replace them with modern ones but I might put a layer of glass in the screens.

Here heat is our enemy. About 45 days ago I noticed my AC (seer 10. 2 ton perfect servicing and clean coils good airflow) locked on at noon and ran till 10 PM Due to our recent heat wave( up to 107 at times). I have declared Marshal law and installed 3500 sq foot of additional isolation. Which is doubling and tripling layers in the attic which is now =R47 and under the house 1K.sqf R 13 which is sealed into the floor joist with a sheets of R5 foam board which bring the floor to R18.

I am winning the battle slowly my last electric bill was $320 I expected it to be much worse. I know it was less due to the isolation work. Now I started on the walls which think its construction uses what I think is called double bubble wood siding on 2X4 walls. Replacement will be R5 foam board and R13. The walls are very slow going installing wise.

Comments (7)

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    tommy,
    you talk about a LOT of things!
    so your ducts are ductboard with 2 flex ducts?
    ductboard is rigid fiberglass insulation board with
    foil surface facing into the attic, flex is flexible
    duct with foil insulation jacket.
    1" ductboard is R-4.2 (just fyi)
    the first thing I would look at is how is this duct system
    sealed..duct tape..foil tape..mastic seal?
    duct tape fails..doesnt take long in extreme attic temps,
    foil tapes (unless mastic tapes) also fail quickly.
    tapes don't adhere to dirty or wet surfaces, although they may look to be intact when the system is running you will be able to feel air escaping from these areas. sealing with a paint on mastic or cleaning and drying surfaces and sealing with a mastic tape is the better, longer lasting option. you can buy mastics at hvac supply stores.
    areas of leakage on duct board would be areas where duct board sections connect, and each supply duct. flex would
    be where it attaches to ductboard plenum.
    these areas should be sealed with a paint on mastic sealant.

    the other area of duct leakage is the supply box. if you feel around the supply boxes in the attic, they should sit evenly without gaps on the attic floor. lots of times the side attached to the ceiling joist makes a snug fit, but the opposite side (not attached to anything) will raise up when supply grills are installed. I use Hardcast mastic
    tape to seal these areas from inside the house by
    removing supply grills.

    heat is an issue here also, today it is 92 degrees outside and RH is 87%. it isn't a bad thing that your unit runs alot when temps are so high. shortcycling, unit running 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off adds to cost of utilities, does not remove humidity and wears out equipment sooner.
    You may want to think about upgrading to a higher SEER
    heat pump, 10 SEER is not very efficient and is no longer
    mfg'd because of inefficiency and cost of operation.
    Federal tax credits can help to offset costs.

    in adding more insulation to the attic...did you use layers of unfaced insulation?? the paper backing (vapor barrier) causes condensation between vapor barriers..this can cause more harm than good.

    under the house the insulation should be in contact with the underside of the flooring, or condensation occurs between the gap between the underside of the floor and the insulation.

    I'm not sure what you mean by double bubble wood siding for your walls... foil bubble foil wraps are not good insulators, and in our hot humid climate vapor barrers are to the exterior of the walls. cold climates have vapor barriers to the interior, but here promotes mold growth.
    If you are insulating the exterior of your walls, a foam sheathing board with all seams taped is the best option.
    to upgrade the insulation from R-13 in the walls to R-15
    is a minimal cost and would be of benefit to you.
    if you are not working from the exterior to the interior
    ..well..enough for now..that can be discussed later.
    Like the attic ventilation...not enough info!

    for your windows in your home, adding a piece of glass to
    the screens really isn't your best improvement. check HD and Lowe's for Gila brand window tint. these will reduce
    heat gain, whereas two panes of glass that are not insulated glass units will trap heat between the panes of glass.

    I understand perfectly about being 57 and this being the last big undertaking..I'm 48 and just getting too stiff for some of this stuff!

    That you are happy with a $300 plus utility cost just blows me away! My last utility bill was $70.00
    my little house is about 950 sq ft full sun, just
    plantings in the yard to block west sun from the windows.
    when I first bought this house my utility bill
    was $275 - $300 a month. Knowing where and how
    to correctly address specific issues in the house
    makes a lot of difference!
    You can get help specific to your home that will
    make all this time, effort and money spent worthwhile.
    visit
    http://www.natresnet.org/directory/raters.aspx
    to locate an energy rater in your state.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I was just asking about ducts. Everything I have is coming out for a new system. The ducts I have now what I trying to figure out or the question. I just rambled on about my repairs. No I am not happy about a 300$ electric bill.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Back to the ducts distribution system. From your post I learned they are ductboard . The seal used is the mastic. Ductboard runs to all vent openings in a U shaped distribution manifold larges size duct bottom of the U. AC system input center of the bottom of that U . The entire U stands on about 1 foot legs (vertical duct) of ductboard The AC split system was first installed in this house over 25 years ago. The compressor/condenser was changed 10 years ago with a seer10 ($1400.00 total installed in 1999)its condenser fan failed and was replaced 2 years ago (both units Rheem). Air handling fan was changed one time in that period and the same natural gas furnace is still up there. Its working pretty well for such an old AC system. So the duct system came with the original AC. This system will be replaced with SEER 16.

    .. Each 1 foot duct is a mastic seal on the attic side of the pine shiplap ceiling board . This manifold mainly hangs from the rafters for support . Each 1 foot run supplies 1 air register. (This house has ship-lap interior pine siding in each room when built it had gauze and wallpaper for interior walls 1937 construction. All interior walls are now drywall nailed on the original interior shiplap.) 2 exceptions are the 8 foot flex run which use the metal supply boxes. These locations are where the roof meets the side wall. My guess is they cut a hole from inside the house slid a flex duct with the air box attached through the hole and attached to the distribution duct.
    Early summer I started some attic work and started inspecting the duct system. I inspected ever foot I know it sounds sick but I hand washed the duct looking for leaks. It looks pretty much perfect. I replaced each of flex duct runs due to the outside jacket was deteriorating. As I paint the rooms I remove the register and reseal the air vent area from inside the house.

    I installed the faced insulation attic and under the house and in the walls. I am removing enough wooden siding (which are 6 inch pine siding each board has 2 humps or bubbles run horizontally the original 1937 this is where I use the term double bubble siding which is probably some local slang term). In the walls from outside the house I am installing the R5 next to the interior wall then a layer of backed R13 of a combine total of R18 then the siding goes up. Got a case of calk foam and such to sealing the walls.

    Thanks for you answer the great amount of time in answering .

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Sorry to hijack the thread, but which Hardcast product is recommended for sealing supply boxes, as mentioned by energy rater la? The website has a lot of products shown. Thanks.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    To save typing, I used this for another 2-ton system on this forum.
    ---------
    Normally, we would use 6 or 7" branch ducts for a 2-ton system, depending on the number of branch runs, to keep velocities low enough.

    However, he had 8-runs; Eight (8) supply branch runs which means: 24000 / 8-runs= 3000-BTUH per duct.

    FIGURING ROOM CFM - DUCT SIZES

    Quick method: The heat gain and Btu/hr of cooling is done for each room.

    At 400-CFM per/ton of cooling, 12,000-BTUH / 400-cfm = 30-BTUH for each (CFM) Cubic Foot per Minute of Airflow.

    Then Select Supply duct size by CFM, velocity, & optimal Supply Air *(FR) Friction Rate.

    A Room requires 3000-Btu/hr divided / by 30 equals 100-CFM, or around a 6" dia. RD metal duct.

    He had Eight runs; 8 X's 3000-BTUH each run= 24000-BTUH.

    Maybe a 4" to a small bathroom, etc.

    You have to balance out the duct system to meet the BTUH heat-gain in each room.

    Do not make your decisions solely on my information, work with your locals! - udarrell

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Here in Austin my last electric bill was $99 for July.
    Slightly more sq ft than the OP but my windows
    were replaced along with all the other upgrades
    he already mentioned. Windows are the key I believe.

  • 17 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    udarrell_2007

    Overview of Duct Sizing

    Thank you so much For your example and link. I been reading and studying on your site for hours now.
    I am seeing a lot of areas for improvement for my home . From reading there I really understand now why my suspicions about AC companies and such were well warranted . I actually saw a example Last month. I watched a company install a unit for second floor addition to the house directly across the street ( brought a 1ksf home to approx 1800k over 7 month project) I watched this highly trained technician vent a cloud of R-22 / lubricant the size of the house. At first I thought it was a fire. I watched as he did it the second times so wasn't a mistake someone must have overcharged it.
    I am reading every page and all the links just getting started but sill not seeing what high end R value is for a duct material