What is location?

You are all electric?

On the Carrier quote cheaper option, you want the FV series var speed air handler.

What model air handlers were quoted for the Trane equipment. Do you really need the XLi condenser series with the proprietary top? Other than the top, the only thing you get is an extra 2 yr warranty on compressor. Weigh the price difference to the XR series, XR15 and XR17.

If your load cal was done correctly including design temps both in and out for cooling and heating, then a 2 ton condenser would be satisfactory.

Has any dealer suggested a return for the basement?

What size heat strip?

What Mdl thermostat?

Any filter boxes?

Post back.

IMO

What is your location and what are your average low temperatures in the winter? Do you have access to natural gas?

In most cases the heat pump is sized according to the cooling load. Assuming your calculation is correct then you first floor heat pump could be a 1.5 ton single stage unit. If you get a 2-stage heat pump then a 2 ton should be work well but the split in the low and high stages in 2 ton units is small. The upper floor should be good with a 2.5 ton single stage. It is debatable whether it is worth getting a 2-stage 3 ton unit. It could be if you have high humidity in the summer.

In the winter the heat pump can't put out enough heat when the temperature drops into the 20s. This is why auxiliary heating is added. For homes which are all electric, heat strips are added to make up for the extra heat requirements.

The Trane heat pumps have on demand defrost. This is a nice feature to have in cold climates. You need to get all model numbers and details for the Trane quotes. There are other posters who can advise you on specific Trane air handlers and heat pump models.

Thanks for the feedback.

Location: Kingsport, TN (Northeast Tennessee)
(Average low - 26F in January, Average High - 87F in July)
Yes, we are all electric. No other options.

I just received the equipment specs for the Trane quotes:

Trane XLi 15 Seer �"
2- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX5024B1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0A24H21SA/ Heater # BAYEVAC08BK1AA
3- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX5036B1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0C36H31SA/ Heater # BAYEVBC15BK1AA
Thermostat Model # TCONT802AS32DA
Total Cost: $12,320.00 - $400.00 (instant rebate) = $11,920.00.

Trane XLi 18 Seer �"
2- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX8024A1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0B30H21SA/ Heater # BAYEVAC08BK1AA
3- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX8036A1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0C36H31SA/ Heater # BAYEVBC15BK1AA
Thermostat Model # TCONT802AS32DA
Total Cost: $13,785.00 - $1,500.00 (instant rebate) = $12,285.00.

Trane XLi 20 Seer �"
2- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWZ0024A1000C/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0B30H21SA/ Heater # BAYEVAC08BK1AA
3- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWZ0036B1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0C36H31SA/ Heater # BAYEVBC15BK1AA
Thermostat Model # TCONT900AC43UA
Total Cost: $16,420.00 - $2,000.00 (instant rebate) = $14,420.00.

I also got a quote on the XR15 (2 ton, 2.5 ton units) for $9663 (no details about air handler or thermostat yet).

One contractor mentioned adding a return from the basement to the 1st floor unit (tight space), but he suggests increasing the size from 2 ton to a 3 ton for the 1st floor if this is done ($1200 adder for the tie-in and the larger unit). Should I request this? We are living with a 2 ton on the 1st floor now, and we heat the basement with portable heaters as needed. It is a theater room so it is not used everyday.

I am not super confident about the j calculation. I used my house plans for the room dimensions, estimated the window size, etc. I thought it would give me a reasonable estimate. A 2.5 ton worked fine. Maybe a single stage is the best option. I can stay with the current setup. (2 tons downstairs, 2.5 tons upstairs).

I will try to follow-up on the XR15 specs. This may be a good option. I was not sure how much difference there was in the XR series and the XL series.

Wrong thermostat quoted. You want Trane's 803 or identical HW Mdl #8321 usually less expensive.

I see no reason to go with a 3 ton upstairs particularly when I see your load calcs. Your calculation if correct clearly indicates a 2 ton size. Of course this needs a thorough review.

I would like to see air handler quoted for the XR15 condensers.

IMO

Thanks, Tigerdunes.

I will ask for the new thermostat. I have asked for the details on the XR15 quote. None of the contractors are interested in dropping the size down to 2 tons. My best option might be to just put back the current size of 2.5 tons. That makes my decision a little easier. This drops out all of the 2 stage units. It will be down to the XR15, XL15i, and the Carrier 25HBC5.

I will post the details on the XR15 when I get them.

Trane has the edge with electronic demand defrost especially for your location/climate.

EDD eliminates/reduces nuisance and unnecessary defrost calls which is hard on a HP and expensive. This is a problem with Carrier HPs that rely on old technology time and temp defrost method.

If dealers don't want to drop to a two ton system for the upstairs, then insist they support that reasoning with a load calc for upstairs. Then you can compare yours to theirs. That would be my strategy.

IMO

Wrong air handler with the XL20i system quoted. If you are interested at all in the XL20i, you want the TAM8 with the XL900 (or XL950) thermostat and 20i outdoor unit for the communicating system to operate properly as intended. Hopefully only an oversight... I do like the XL20i system. The dual compressors allow for excellent load matching when sized properly (remember that Manual J calculates the maximum heat load/loss at design conditions). This means longer, more efficient run cycles based upon indoor heat load in either stage (low stage compressor is half the nominal capacity of the unit). Longer cycles = better dehumidification, and more even temperatures throughout the home. This of course is all entirely dependent upon a proper installation, proper sizing, and a proper duct system attached to whichever equipment you select. You have several good equipment options to choose from.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 18:14

Ryan,
Thanks for the feedback. I checked out the TAM8 on the Trane site and it looks like it has communication ability, which is why you recommended it. The AHRI directory seems shows a lower HSPF for the units with the TAM8 vs. the TAM7. The SEER and EER are the same for the two air handlers, but the HSPF drops from 10 to 9.5 for the 2 ton and 3 ton units. Any idea why it drops? If I decide to splurge and actually go with the XL20i, one of the main drivers would be the higher HSPF factor. It is 9 for most of the other setups that I am looking at.

Good for you for checking the AHRI directory on these configurations to ensure proper matching. I am surprised there is a .5 HSPF discrepancy, and while I know other respected forum members may disagree with me, I am not concerned with it. With the major difference between the TAM7 and TAM8 being the communicating control board, I don't see how there can be that much of a difference. Perhaps the HSPF with the TAM7 was measured at a higher air volume that would be more efficient. Air volume on the TAM7/8 is adjustable by the installer. Factory setting on the TAM8 is a bit less than 400 cfm/ton (which is very common for colder/warmer output temps; i.e., better comfort). I have my 4 ton TAM8 configured for 400 cfm/ton, and it reduces to 320 cfm/ton when humidity is above set point in cooling mode. While SEER/EER/HSPF are important factors in considering systems and they are relevant, I tend to not obsess about them knowing that actual realized efficiency and capacity are so heavily dependent upon actual installation conditions. You will receive a great level of comfort and energy efficiency from a properly sized/installed XL20i system. Don't take the ratings too seriously, please. It's all a numbers game. I have seen cases where a manufacturer tweaks the factory spec subcooling value to achieve a lower head pressure and thereby higher SEER. Yet the system is undercharged and doesn't provide full/proper capacity. So the installer will add more refrigerant, and what are the actual RATINGS now? My point is that efficiency measured in a controlled testing environment is never the same as what the end user experiences. Yes, the AHRI ratings are the accepted guideline and standard. However I hate to see them turn someone away from a better system if their concern is actual operating efficiency.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Aug 13, 13 at 20:10

Thanks for the reply Ryan. Now I just need to decide which option is the best to go with.

I received the information on the XR15 quote:
2 Ton XR 15 - 4TWR5024 / GAM5A024
2.5 Ton XR 15 - 4TWR5030 / GAM5A030
Did not specity the Thermostat (probably the 802)
Cost =$9663

I asked for the XL15i to be changed to a 2 ton, 2.5 ton system, and this dropped the quote by $240, but there was a $40 adder for each 803 thermostat.

XL15i option - 11,760 (w/803 thermostats and 2, 2.5 ton)

What do you experts think:

XR15 system - $9743 (w/803 thermostats) (2 ton, 2.5 ton) - single stage
SEER = 15, EER = 12.5, HSPF = 9

XL15i system - $11,760 (w/803 thermostats) (2 ton, 2.5 ton) - single stage
SEER = 15.5, EER = 13, HSPF = 9

XL18i system - $12,365 (w/803 thermostats) (2 ton, 3 ton) - 2 stage
SEER = 17, EER=13, HSPF=8.5

XL20i system - $14,972 (w/900 thermostat) (2 ton, 3 ton) - 2 stage
SEER=19, EER = 14, HSPF = 10

Carrier 25HNB6 - $12,851 (2 ton, 3 ton) - 2 stage
(w/wi-fi thermostat - can save $200 with non-wifi version)
SEER = 17, EER = 13.2, HSPF= 9

While I like Trane, the pricing in the XL20i is absurd whether one has deep pockets or not. They are not even competitive to the high end Carrier Infinity.

Now to the XR15 quotes. Dealer has quoted GAM5 high eff air handler but not var speed. I would want the var speed model, TAM7. This will give you best dehumidification. Should not be more than several hundred dollars/system upgrade price from the GAM5 and worth it.

Ask dealer to give you the HW MDL 8321 stat,identical to the 803 and will be less expensive. This will save you a few bucks. Just so you know, the Trane 803 is basically a rebadged HW 8321. HW makes Trane stats.

Then compare the prices between the XR15 and XL15i systems.

BTW, what size heat strip did Trane dealer quote? I would think a 7.5 KW for 2 ton, maybe a 10 KW for 2 1/2 ton system.

Nothing about a filter cabinet for each system? Should have one for indoor air quality and protection of blower motor and evap coil. A cheap HW cabinet would be fine.

I think the biggest question you must answer is cost and single stg versus two stage systems.

Nothing wrong with the XR15 and XL15i systems if sized correctly. Remember all you get with the XL15i is the proprietary top and the extra two yr warranty on the compressor. You could pocket the savings and apply to the ext warranty. Just a thought.

IMO

Thanks for the reply.

I will see how much the change to the TAM7 air handler adds to the XR15 quote, and then ask for the HW8321.

Not sure it matters, but the XL20i system was $14,470 instead of $14,972 that I entered previously.

Thanks for the help.

Still ridiculous...$1600 more than the Infinity...

Good equipment yes, but worth it?...humm...

IMO

Good points have been made. I personally am not shocked at all that the XL20i systems cost more than the Carrier Infinity systems... As I said previously, you are considering good equipment options, and TD has made some great recommendations to improve them altogether. If you do decide to install 2-stage systems, I still recommend the XL20i as it has the largest difference between both stages. The single 2-stage scroll compressor found in the XL18i and Carrier Infinity has a low stage capacity of between 70-80% depending on matchup. In this case I tend to agree that there may not be enough of a noticeable comfort advantage to suggest them over single stage models, depending on cost. There is certainly a jump in price when 2-stage systems are considered -- in some cases it's reasonable with rebates/incentives, and other times it isn't. A good portion of the difference between the XL18i and XL20i quotes seems to be actual equipment cost -- I do not feel the dealer is making big bucks on the upgrade (18 -> 20) at the purchaser's cost. Speculation from here however, not knowing local TN costs. TD is right that the XR15 and XL15i systems are very similar from a mechanical aspect. The price point on the two XR15 systems is very appealing. I'm more surprised at the jump in cost to go to the XL15i. I too would ask for the TAM7's and 803 (8321) thermostat instead. Honeywell box filter and properly sized heater packaged, all as mentioned above.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 15:52

Hey Ryan

I agree what you said about the XL20i. I like them too especially for areas with high humidity, coastal locations in Florida. I think this is more Trane than the dealer. I suppose the twin compressors are part of the reason for the high cost. But also because of Trane marketing which in many cases stinks especially from upgrading to a higher end model. Trane makes it mighty difficult to justify. And I hate this name change on condenser models. Where I come from we call that smoke and mirrors or shuck and jive. The fact is on performance/efficiency numbers Trane is behind the curve. Still great equipment.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Aug 14, 13 at 15:58

Ok guys,
I got the XR15 quoted with the 803 thermostat and the TAM7 air handlers.

The new price is $10,397 vs. $11,760 for the XL15i

I am not sure the XL20i price is too far out of line. I think it compares closer to the 25HNB9 series and the quote on it was $14,972 after rebate. The best Carrier option - 25VNAO was $17,110 after rebate.

I think the current Carrier quote for the 25HNB6 ($12,851) compares closer to the XL18i ($12,285).

I need to check on the Honeywell box filter and the staged heating elements. My current system is setup for downflow with no connecting ductwork. They are placed in the room with a vent on the door. Would the filter box work out for this setup? For my current Rheem systems, I use the 1" polyester filters.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I think it is down to the XR15, the XL20i, or possibly the 25HNB6. I need to decide soon. The wife and the 2 contractors are getting impatient.

Well, I've given you my thoughts.

Carrier does not have electronic demand defrost. It s a great feature which I think would serve you well for your location/climate.

I think the pricing on the XL20i is absurd pls I believe it to be overkill for your location. A three ton system is ridiculous for upstairs.

The price difference on the XL15i and XR15 is too great. Something amiss here. If you are interested In the XL15i systems, then tell dealer he is too high. He is. I have told you several times the difference between the two HP condenser models. You don't need staged heat strips, a 7.5 and a 10 KW would be fine for a 2 ton and 2 1/2 ton system.

You need to follow up on the filter cabinet. Any good system would require one.

I would like to know the actual TAM7 model sizes quoted to make certain they are correct.

That's all. It's up to you now.

IMO

Here you go:

Trane XLi 15 Seer �"
2- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX5024B1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0A24H21SA/ Heater # BAYEVAC08LG1AA
2 ý- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWX5030A1000A/ Indoor Model # TAM7A0B30H21SA/ Heater # BAYEVAC10LG1AA
Thermostat Model # TCONT803
Total Cost: $12,080.00 - $400.00 (instant rebate) = $11,720.00.

Trane XR 15 Seer �"
2- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWR5024/ Indoor model # TAM7A0A24H21SA
2 ý- Ton Outdoor Model # 4TWR5030/ Indoor model # TAM7A0B30H21SA
Thermostat Model # TCONT803
Total Cost: $10,397.00.

(did not specify the heater for the XR15, but I assume it would be the same as the xl15i shown above.)

$1323 difference between the 2 units. Sounds like the XR15 is the way to go.

Sounds like you're on the right track. I like that the 2 and 2.5 ton XR15 and XL15i models still use the Trane Climatuff recip. compressor. Installed properly this is a great system.

lcw

I may be quibbling a little bit but you must understand I always check the models and make certain they are matched and which configuration offers the best performance/matching numbers.

You may want the 036 TAM7 air handler with the 2 1/2 ton XR15. An extra point in SEER. Price difference should be negligible if anything.

5198250 Active Systems XR15 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR5030G1 *AM7A0C36H31 1050 32200 13.00 16.00 30000 9.00 18700 1 HRCU-A-CB 244 646 Yes

How do you filter your return air now? How many returns on each floor?

IMO

Just to note, that's $4K difference between the XR15 and XL20i systems. Not exactly pocket change is it?

IMO

Thanks for the help. The air handlers are installed inside closets. Second floor has 2x8 folding closet door for it's return air. First floor has a vent that is approx. 24x24 vent installed in the wall (drywall). There is no duct work to the air handler. Both are set in the center of each level of the house. Waiting on feedback from filter media cabinet. What would be a good price? Thanks again.

To be clear, you are saying neither floor return is connected to ductwork system? Humm...you currently are not filtering any return air?

That bears some thought. What has dealer's comments been about this? If there is a filter rack, then just use that. Still you need some form of protection for the blower motor and evap coil.

Ductwork is in crawl space and attic for each system? It is insulated?

Post back.

No ductwork. Both air handlers are setup for downflow so I use a 1" fiberglass filter in the top of each unit (above the coils). They are replaced every month or so.

Duct work is below the 2nd floor for the 2nd floor unit, and it runs through the basement on the 1st floor unit. The ductwork is insulated.

Forget the filter box then...continue using 1" filters...

Any comment on this setup from the Trane dealer?

IMO

No one was happy with the current setup, but there are not too many options with the limited space. I just spoke with the contractor. I plan to install the XR15 units on August 27.

It sounds like the AM7A0C36H31 may be too large for my closet on the 2nd floor. The entrance only has 23.5" clearance, and the unit is 23.8" or so.

It sounds like the media cabinet would not be needed since I would not have a prefilter. He mentioned that it would be a $200 adder for each unit.

THanks for all of the help. I will try to post back after I get them installed to let you know how they perform.

Here are the dimensions of the two air handler models.

H x W x D

TAM7A0B30 30000 56 21 22
TAM7A0C36 36000 57 23.5 22

I would verify the width of the entrance yourself, not relying on dealer.

Yes, I push the envelope wherever I can.

IMO

Any advantage to moving to the TAM8 air handler for the XR15. It looks like the HSPF and SEER are slightly higher for the units.

XR15 (2 ton)
TAM8A030 - SEER 15, EER 13, HSPF 9.5

XR15 (2.5 ton)
TAM8A030 - SEER 16, EER 13, HSPF 9.4

Both include BAYCC24V. I am not sure what that is. Anyone know? I that a different type of thermostat?

The TAM8 is a certainly a nice upgrade. With that I assume (and you'd want to verify) that they're using the XL900 or XL950 thermostat. These thermostats give you enhanced humidity control among other nice benefits.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 17:59

With all premium brands and especially Trane, one has to weigh the cost upgrade to the benefit. I personally don't think it is worth it and would be surprised if you think so. No doubt though the systems quoted with the XR15 and TAM7 air handlers will be a big improvement to you and your family both in comfort and operating cost over existing systems.

I still think you should insist on load calc for upstairs system to compare to your numbers.

IMO

The OP didn't mention anything about cost in their inquiry but rather seemed interested in the advantages of this setup. So, the 803 or 8321 and TAM7 is a good combination and a nice balance of comfort/economy. This setup will overcool to dehumidify to an extent. With Comfort-R enabled this works well in controlling indoor humidity WHEN the systems are not oversized. Since they aren't buying a "top of the line" system, the TAM8 and ComfortLink II thermostat may not be worth it to them. To get much of the full benefits of these thermostats, the full communicating system (20i and TAM8) is required. They will however obtain the dehumidify on demand function with the XL900 thermostat. I was not expecting this to be an unreasonable upgrade charge -- perhaps it is, but the OP did not mention it (of course perception of cost/benefit is subjective). It's up for them to decide now. Tiger as always I do respect your opinion and don't necessarily disagree with you on the (sometimes) unreasonable upgrade charges and whatnot. There are good, competent, and honest dealers out there that don't charge an arm and a leg for nicer systems that benefit the HO. I think the OP is working with one of them compared to what you see elsewhere. There is a jump in cost for two stage systems across all brands. We are talking two complete change-outs here (albeit based on the descriptions they don't sound "overly" difficult -- absolutely no way to know for sure from here, though). I know you disagree, but it's all good with me and I hope it is with you. Differing opinions are good sometimes, right? It is ultimately the OP's call. My own personal experience with communcating 2-stage systems (not just Trane) is that they do provide comfort and control advantages that justify the upgrade cost in many cases.

Look forward to seeing how this progresses. Ditto on the load calc!

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 16, 13 at 18:59

I agree with Ryan and especially the point he makes about the upgrade.

It seems to me that if you go to a full communicating system with the TAM8 air handler, then you would want the XL20i with appropriate XL900 series
Thermostat.

This is an absolute waste of money with the XR15, TAM8, XL900 series stat. You cheat yourself and the system with this configuration shortcut. I simply don't like it.

At the end of the day, you must make the spending decision.

And I would not go 2 1/2 ton for upstairs system without a load calc in hand from your dealer to compare to your numbers. Only makes sense.

IMO