What is location? Is summer humidity an issue?

Post back.

IMO

I live in Morganton, NC. Summer humidity is not really a problem. The original house is a 70 year old 2 story log cabin, 1400 sq ft. First heat pump will have 2 zones, one downstairs, one upstairs. The second heat pump is for a 1400 sq ft family room, master bedroom log cabin addition. Original part is reasonably insulated, all new double pane windows. Addition is well insulated. My propane bills routinely ran $500 to $600 a month so I heat with 2 fireplace wood stove inserts. Getting older and can't heat with wood forever. AC bills are reasonable.

I will assume you are sized correctly and your ductwork system has been inspected including adequate and correctly sized returns for each zone.

A mediocre/average system. I would get an upgrade price on the var speed air handler. See below AHRI matching number.

7017567 Active Systems CARRIER PERFORMANCE 15 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCC530A**30 FX4DN(B,F)031L 1000 28400 12.00 15.20 28200 8.50 17000 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 232 701

The Carrier system has time/temp defrost method which is a cheap feature and more expensive to operate.

I would suggest and consider a Trane XR13 that is a nicer system and has electronic demand defrost that eliminates unnecessary/reduces nuisance defrost calls. See below.

5270058 Active Systems TRANE XR13 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR3030C1 *AM7A0B30H21 965 31400 12.50 15.00 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 260 662 Yes

If sticking with Carrier, I would want HW Mdl 8321 thermostat. If you upgrade to the matching Carrier VS air handler, then the Carrier Edge Thermidistat.

IMO

As Tigerdunes says, the Carrier equipment is average quality, but decent. 5 tons of heat/cooling seems on the high side for 2800sq ft home. Heatpumps are usually sized for cooling capacity and any additional heating capacity is provided with backup heat. This is to provide adequate dehumidification. If you are sure that humidity is not an issue in Morganton then you can upsize the capacity for more efficient heating in the winter. If you decide to upgrade to a variable speed air handler, make sure you get a thermostat that can take advantage of all its features.

Thanks very much for your advice. I can usually dive into something and sort things out, but I have to admit I am over my head here. The more I read on heat pump ratings and reviews, or seem to learn from the folks that came out to look over my system, the more I realize I really don't know. Thats why I am happy that this forum is available. I'm going to spend about $15,000 and will probably have to live with the decisions I make for a long time.

I really don't have a clue about which brand heat pump/handler/thermostat is best for me. I suspect most of the recommendations I have received from my estimates thus far are what is best/most convenient/most profitable for them.

If I could be pointed in the right direction brand and model wise, I think I could take it from there with perhaps a little coaching. Of 5 estimates, NO one has done an actual J load calculation, and I have asked.

I was leaning Trane, but heard that they were recently purchased, aren't the company they once were, have had problems with their high pressure lines prematurely failing, etc. My propane furnace and AC have needed little maintenance and repairs over 22 years, I just can't afford to heat with it I think primarily to a undersized unit and terrible designed, installed leaky ductwork.

Would American Standard be a better choice?

Thanks in advance for any help. I figure you guys are motivated to help for reasons other than profit.

From my understanding, Trane and American Standard are sister companies and are both owned by the parent company, Ingersoll Rand. Both systems are produced in the same facility in Tyler Texas but have different distribution networks.

According to Consumer Reports either brand is the least repaired out of all brands of heat pumps with York being the most repaired.

Focus on the contractor, not the brand. With a few exceptions, the brands use the same components: Copeland scroll compressor, fan motors and other electrical parts from Mexico/China. All the manufacturers have issues from time to time, and they all get them resolved eventually. No matter which one you pick you could always get a bad install, or a unit with a manufacturing flaw. I would not weight Consumer Reports heavily in an HVAC purchasing decision.

BTW I am not knocking Trane or American Standard equipment at all with that statement, it's nice stuff. But go with a contractor because they are a good contractor, not because they're a Trane dealer. If you don't get good vibes from any of the Trane dealers in your area... don't buy a Trane!

I disagree with the above.

There is a lot of junk in the residential HVAC marketplace especially HPs. I am not saying that Carrier is junk. One of the better brands. My main problem with Carrier and their line of HPs is time/temp defrost which is a cheap feature and is seen even on their high end models.

Remember there are three parts for a successful new system.Good equipment and yes it does matter, a good ductwork system, and finally the install itself.

IMO

I agree with you about the superiority of demand defrost. But just out of curiosity, what brands do you consider junk and what about their construction or components do you think makes them inferior to other brands?

I am not going to make a list but you can start with the brands that these third party warranty companies offer to unsuspecting homeowners who have claims. They are cheap and there is a reason. I always recommend a cash settlement and let the homeowner make the decision. Most don't. Plus beware of non USA made residential HVAC...

If you are in the business, then you know the brands...

IMO

I agree with you about the non USA made stuff. I see Payne commonly used on home warranty, but that's just builder grade Carrier. The higher end Carriers are much nicer. Same with Goodman. Their lowest end models that most know them by are not such good quality, the higher end Amana branded stuff is quite nice. And same with Trane. The XB300 is absolute junk, as you move up the line the quality gets much better.

I'm talking about overall quality differences between the entire lines of major manufacturers, such as Carrier vs. Trane vs. Lennox vs. Rheem, etc. Not the cheapo builder brands and Chinese imports.

I agree about the XB300. Trane hurts themselves by offering such junk. They should drop it from their lineup.

The fact of the matter is that putting bells and whistles aside including efficiency, most brands' models were better made 10 yrs ago than what is available today. All brands have had to take shortcuts to better compete, some more than others.

TD

5270058 Active Systems TRANE XR13 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR3030C1 *AM7A0B30H21 965 31400 12.50 15.00 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 260 662 Yes
Special thanks to tigerdunes and hvtech42 for the Trane comments and recommendation cut and pasted from your earlier reply. I was a little puzzled by the model number XR13, thinking it might imply a 13 SEER basic grade model, but apparently it is better than that. Would you mind including a decent variable speed air handler and compatible thermostat? We are not hung up on complicated programmable features, however, I am beginning to understand that the thermostat does a lot of behind the scene things to make the unit run efficiently and increase comfort. Out of the 5 estimates, only 2 are now being considered. I want to ask the Carrier guy to requote based on your recommended Trane models. He said he could get any brand. I am also going to insist he do a J load calculation or start shopping again. this time, I am going to start calling and talking directly to the owner or the person who comes out to do the estimate and rule out the ones who do not do an authentic calculation. I have had anywhere from a 2, 2.5, 3 ton recommendation from estimates so far.
BTW, I am having all my leaky ductwork, chase returns and inside insulated ductwork removed and am starting over from scratch, so I will be posting a separate thread with ductwork questions. I know how crucial it is for good performance. I do appreciate all the input from replys. Thanks

This XR13 HP carries a lot of firepower especially for 2 1/2 ton systems. Good numbers across the board. I will assume you will be sized correctly.

I would assume a 7-10 KW heat strip. Electric service can handle this?

New lineset or reuse old and flush? Lineset must be sized correctly to mfg spec. A detail not to be ignored.

Any filter boxes?

What kind of pricing have you been quoted?

The var speed air handler was listed in the AHRI matching number that I provided. You want either the TAM7 30 or 36 model. The 36 has larger coil and slightly better performance/efficiency numbers. Price difference between these two models should be inconsequential. See below numbers with 36 air handler.

5271459 Active Systems AMERICAN STANDARD AMERICAN STANDARD 13 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H3030C1 *AM7A0C36H31 1025 32200 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 662 Yes

Basic programmable thermostat is HW Mdl #8321. If you want bells and whistles then HW Prestige 2.0 that has capability of dehumidify on demand and can control strip heat with outdoor sensor. WiFi I believe is available.

You can consider Trane XR15 but the performance/efficiency numbers are really not much better than the XR13. One of the rare nuances with size and configuration.

You should know same system is available through AmStandard, Trane 's sister company in their Heritage 13 and 15 models. Basically identical and usually less expensive.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 8:23

So, you're going to remove your propane furnace and replace it with electric backup? What are your prices for propane and electricity? You might want to think about duel fuel if the price warrants it.

Boy, I feel for the first time that I have a good handle on what equipment to avoid and to give serious consideration. This forum is great.
I recently upgraded my electrical service to 200 amp and the electric company was nice enough to run my line underground to the house.
Never thought about it, but I will be sure to get a new one. Dumb question, but is the lineset carry the freon between the hp and air handler?
Absolutely new filter boxes. Currently I have only one filter in the half basement on the propane furnace/air handler? Planning to have several upstairs for easy cleaning/replacement.
Quotes thus far have ranged from $10,000 Goodman to $20,000Carrier/Trane, and inbetween. But they were not the equipment/model tigerdunes recommended. They were like 16 or 17 SEER or something. I am feeling really comfortable with the XR13 or AStd equivalent. To be honest, my job is certainly not an easy one and a significant part of the cost I am sure is in removing the old ductwork and completely replacing the ductwork. 75% of the house has friendly crawlspace, the last quarter not so much.
My wife wants the propane out. There is such a bad feeling about the huge $600/month cost to use propane to heat with. The unit is 22 years old and I am told oversized for using as a hybrid for one of the systems only. I have heated my whole house with wood from one fireplace insert and use a second when it gets really cold, maybe 2 weeks total each winter. I plan on firing up the wodstove when the temp drops below 30 for very long cold snaps. Anybody see any problem with that and a heat pump operating together?
Many, many thanks for all the input.

"Never thought about it, but I will be sure to get a new one. Dumb question, but is the lineset carry the freon between the hp and air handler?"

Yes must be sized correctly to mfg spec for condenser model/size you install. Same true if you flush old lineset and reuse.

No problem using wood stove insert. I would think though if you intend to use both wood stove and heat pump, you might consider locking out heat strip or cutting it off at the breaker. I like for heat strip to be placed on separate circuit. Just my idea. You may find that another arrangement works best for you, your comfort, your home.

IMO

5271459 Active Systems AMERICAN STANDARD AMERICAN STANDARD 13 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H3030C1 *AM7A0C36H31 1025 32200 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 662 Yes

Thanks tigerdunes and hvtech42 for your expertise and help. I have decided to get the unit recommended above with HW8321 thermostats. My quote was $15050 for removing and replacing all my old ductwork, installing two 2.5 ton units as above, one which is zoned for downstairs and upstairs in the old part of the house. The electrical is $850 more. The only thing I am not sure of is the filtered air return in the new part of the house. Any recommendations? I will definitely post in a few months after the install and let you know how it is performing. Did a little research on the timed vs on demand defrost cycle and appreciate steering me that way. Also the variable speed air handler. Thanks again.

cvthree

This AmStd system carries a lot of firepower. The numbers across the board are great. Pricing is reasonable, certainly not a steal but fair.

On ductwork, you want min R8 insulation, flex duct OK for runs, galv though for both supply and truck lines.

By ditching propane, you should be able to see a measurable payback, particularly on heating. Of course correct sizing and a good install is absolutely necessary.

BTW, what is your electric rate? I would inquire with your utility if they offer any special rate for heat pump (all electric) heating.

What size is your home and size of each zone?

What size heat strip was quoted? I assume dealer has checked your electric panel service for capacity. I prefer that condenser, air handler, and heat strip be placed on separate circuits.

As to air filtration, I prefer AmStd Perfect Fit media cabinet because its heavy duty and made to fit return end of the air handler. There are cheaper brands but I would stay with AS or Trane. That's what I have on my home's system.

Any questions, let me know.

IMO

tigerdunes,

Not sure of my electric rates, but will definitely check on special rate for all electric. I am ditching my 75 gallon propane water heater for an electric one too, so maybe I will get lucky.

Old part home is about 1400 ft2, about 900 downstairs and the balance upstairs. That is where the 2.5 ton Heritage 13 will go with two zones. The new part of the house is 1400 ft2 all on one floor and will also get a 2.5 ton Heritage 13.

I specified the Tam 36 air handler as per your suggestion and the dealer said he would get exactly the specs I cut and pasted from you.

I recently upgraded to a 200 amp service to my home so hope that is enough for the 10KW heat strips. I am not sure if I need stages and if so if the HW8321 will control staged heat strips. I will ask the electrician to place them on separate circuits.

Thanks for the media cabinet recommendation.

Regards,

Chuck

tigerdunes,

Not sure of my electric rates, but will definitely check on special rate for all electric. I am ditching my 75 gallon propane water heater for an electric one too, so maybe I will get lucky.

Old part home is about 1400 ft2, about 900 downstairs and the balance upstairs. That is where the 2.5 ton Heritage 13 will go with two zones. The new part of the house is 1400 ft2 all on one floor and will also get a 2.5 ton Heritage 13.

I specified the Tam 36 air handler as per your suggestion and the dealer said he would get exactly the specs I cut and pasted from you.

I recently upgraded to a 200 amp service to my home so hope that is enough for the 10KW heat strips. I am not sure if I need stages and if so if the HW8321 will control staged heat strips. I will ask the electrician to place them on separate circuits.

Thanks for the media cabinet recommendation.

Regards,

Chuck

On a 10 KW heat strip, I see no reason to stage.

IMO

^Agreed. Staging is usually only done when you have more than 10kW. The way the 8321 handles heat strip staging is you designate one stage as "aux" and the other as "emergency". Normally, the heat pump will be the first stage, and aux the second. When you activate emergency heat (say, heat pump is broken) the emergency strips will be first stage, aux heat strips the second. In your case, they will probably wire it so all 10kW comes on for either aux or emergency heat.

Keep it simple. The above is the way HP should operate with heat strip. Maybe 10 KW is a bit oversized but 7.5 KW probably would not temper the air satisfactorily on a defrost call.

IMO

OK, I will stick with the 10 kw strips. You guys really know your stuff and do this forum a great service.

Thanks.

OK, I will stick with the 10 kw strips. You guys really know your stuff and do this forum a great service.

Thanks.

Just for info, a 7.5 KW heat strip yields around 25.5 KBTUs and a 10 KW heat strip about 34 KBTU. So if both systems were using emergency heat which seems highly unlikely, you would have 51 KBTUs on the 7.5 and 68 KBTUs on the 10 KW. Worth a serious conversation with your AmStd dealer. May be an electric service capacity consideration as well.

IMO