You will be replacing the furnace as well with a York variable speed model, correct? If you don't, the heat pump will not get the 16 SEER/9 HSPF it was designed for and you won't get the efficiency rebates. Efficiency ratings don't apply to just the outdoor unit, they apply to the combination of the outdoor unit with furnace and coil. Any efficiency rating they claim the outdoor unit can get is just marketing mumbo-jumbo and has nothing to do with rebates or how efficient it will actually be in your home.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Mon, Nov 17, 14 at 22:45

Don't know what the rebate qualifications are but if you are going all electric HP system, I think you should get a price on the following Trane system. Excellent numbers. I would compare to the York system you are considering.

5270059 Active Systems TRANE XR13 WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWR3030C1 *AM7A0C36H31 1025 32200 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00 16500 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 662 Yes

IMO

The quote is for the heat-pump/coil only. The SEER/EER requirements for the rebate are 14.5/12, which is the case for the YZF03013 model along with some special coil.

I will get a quote for the Trane, thanks.

ohiluw, just wondering, what made you settle on the York? What did you like? I'm in the market for a new heat pump also.

Hi Dovetonsils,

York is the only company that offers 10 years warranty on labor (for an extra charge - about $350-400). The other companies don't do it, although you can buy the extra warranty from a 3rd party. Also, they offer lifetime warranty on their compressor, but only when paired with their furnace and air handler.

I am looking for a reliable unit that will last long enough to pay off for the big investment plus some gravy ... So for me durability is the main concern over perfromance. And of course - cost.

One thing that has to be mentioned is that the installation is more important than the brand/model of the HP. There is consensus that you are better off with "cheapo" HP with high-quality install versus superbe HP and bad install. The problem is that it's hard to know what the install will be like ...

No consensus with me. Absolutely disagree with that statement on cheapo HPs.

There are 3 parts to a successful new installation. Quality HVAC, good ductwork system, and the install itself. All equally important, the 2nd usually overlooked and disregarded.

And depending on location, I would not purchase new HP system that did not have EDD unless maybe it was rental property.

New Heat Pump System

Here is my general minimum spec sheet for new system.
both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

IMO

tigerdunes,

My electrical furnace is one year old, are you suggesting that I should spend $2-3k on a new furnce to match my HP?

Btw, Yorks do have on demand defrost.

For my location (in Eastern Canada), I don't really care about SEER/EER as we have short and not so hot summers. I need the 14.5/12 to get some reabtes from the government. I care more about the HSPF.

Btw, York Affinity is also listed as ENERGY STAR Most Efficient 2014 :

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=most_efficient.me_cac_ashp

... Not saying what's the best/worst, but if you are willing to spend $$$$$$ on a unit, then might as well go for a two-stage, or why not for a Zuba system ?

I am having a Tranne contractor over to get a quote for a Trane system. It really comes down to budget vs needs balance ...

It is true a bad installation will handicap the best heat pump. But a proper installation of a builder's grade heat pump still leaves you with a builder's grade heat pump.

Read the fine print on the York compressor lifetime warranty. I have no experience with York, but I am skeptical. It sounds to good to be true.

I absolutely think it's a mistake to have a non matching system. What brand and model number is your 1 yr old air handler. Is it a York?

And yes, I am aware that your York condenser has EDD feature.

It is unlikely you will meet any rebate qualification standard with an unrated non matching system.

IMO

None of the comments about builder grade heat pumps apply to the York Affinity, it is their top of the line system. Also, builders grade heat pumps will heat and cool just fine, and last a reasonable if properly installed and maintained. They will just be noisier, less efficient, and have less comfort features than high end systems. I disagree with tigerdunes and agree with you about install quality vs. HP quality. I would MUCH rather have a cheap HP and nice install than nice HP and botched install. Of course I would prefer a nice HP and nice install, and both the Affinity and LX meet the criteria for "nice HP".

Still, you are wasting your money on the Affinity if you don't upgrade to a variable speed blower. The considerably less expensive LX Series (YHJF) can also get 14.5 SEER/12 EER without a variable speed indoor. Has Copeland Scroll compressor like the Affinity, but not 2 stage.

Also despite York Affinity being nice there are other units that are just as nice. I would settle on contractor before settling on brand/model.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Nov 18, 14 at 13:35

tigerdunes,

My furnace is what came from the builder - crappy Broan B series 50kBTU furnace: http://www.broan.ca/products/product/1a6b3128-838a-4c33-956c-37b35a157021

But I really can't justify spending 2-3k on a new frunace ...

hvtech42,
Actually, that's what I am considering right now - YHJF + AH.

Do you know how much an AH costs? Btw, the YFZ model that I have been quoted is also single stage. I was told that the YZH, which is dual stage, is about $1800 more than the YZF. Not sure where the YHJF falls (I think it's about $1k less)

Also, the problem about settling on a contractor is that they all look the same - promises, promises, promises ...They all say they do the best installs, they've been in the business for the longest time, etc, etc ... Realy have no idea how to choose the contractor, what questions should be asked and what answers should get ???

hvtech42,

Got the quote for the variable speeb AH (MV series). It's about 3k, so it does not make sense at this point. If I go for the YZF + coil only, I'd get a rebate of $1500, thus bringing the cost before tax (15% sales tax) to $5000, which would be cheaper than the LX series.

I will see what the Trane guy will propose tomorrow, but if I go with York, it'd be the YZF+ coil

For hvtech

You and I will just have to disagree about "cheapo" HPs and a great install. Where I come from, cheap HVAC goes together with a cheap install. You get what you pay for.

And for the record, I have never said or suggested that York was builder grade HVAC. Yes, I do believe there is better.

And for the OP, I find it difficult to believe that you will qualify for a rebate with an unrated non matching HP system. Better check so you won't get a surprise.

IMO

tigerdunes,

Which system would you recommend in this price range?

As for the eco-rebate, I'd have them write this on the contract. They've assured me at least 10 times that the system would qualify.

For OP,

The Broan you refer to is not a furnace. It is an air handler with a 15 KW heat strip that yields around 50 KBTUs. I hope you have a cheap electric rate.

When you say "YZF + coil only", what do you mean by coil only. The existing Broan air handler has an evap coil that would be non matching with the York YZF York HP condenser.

Also what model/brand condenser are you replacing and why?

I just want to clarify your exact situation.

And how are you heating at the moment, straight heat strip heating?

Post back. Believe it or not, I am trying to help you.

TD

That Broan is indeed an electric furnace, not an air handler, so there is no coil built in.

A YHJF with the proper York coil is not a mismatch, even when attached to the Broan furnace. The furnace is only included in a matchup if it has an ECM/variable speed motor that is capable of boosting the SEER. Matchups that list an outdoor unit and coil with no furnace specified give you the efficiency when that outdoor unit is used with a generic PSC motor and therefore the brand/model of the furnace does not matter. The contractor is correct that it should get the rebate, though he should give you an AHRI number so you can look up the match yourself online and verify.

I agree it can be tough to pick a good contractor, but there are things you can look for. Ask friends/neighbors for recommendations. Check online. When they came to give you the quote, did they do a thorough job scoping out your house, take measurements, etc. or did they just run in and out? Did they seem technically proficient, or did they just send out a salesmen who focused mainly on promoting his brand and bashing others? Did they comment on your ductwork at all?

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Nov 18, 14 at 18:51

Thanks tigerdunes and hvtech42.

hvtech42 is right, Broan is indeed furnace only. I paid $3k to the builder in 2013, which I highly regret now, but back then I had no HVAC knowledge, and with a newborn, I did not have time to do research. They took advantage of my situation, but that's life ...

I am in Quebec, so the electricity is indeed cheap - 6 to 7 cents. It's cheaper to heat on electricity (which is govt owned) than the natural gas (in QC they scam a lot with their "delivery" and "destination" charges).

The house is semi-detached bungalow, 1050sq ft, but the basement has walk-out patio door and big windows facing south.

There two YORK reps who came to give me an estimate (there are only two installers in the area) were not too technical. However, the one who gave me the $6900 quote also tried to sell me media cleaner for $500 (and I know they go for about $100-$200), so at that point I was done with him. The other guy seemed decent to me, he is actually trying to "save" me money - he said that I don't need media cleaner since we don't smoke, don't have pets, etc, and that he would give me 1" electrostatic filter and prepare space for 4 or 5 inch media filter if I want to put one in the future. He said that he'd install MERV13 YORK media cleaner for $150 if I insisted. So this guy does not seem to be focused on selling extras I might not need.

None of them did blower test, etc, and did not spend much time examining the ductwork, but my house is simple and new, so I wouldn't blame them. Also, in order to get the eco-rebate, I need to bring a guy to do an evaluation (and to confirm that I don't have heat pump already installed). He will do blower tests, etc ...

My concern with this model is that is a bit oversized for my house (2.5 ton), but it's only one that is not from the YZH series and that would qualify for the eco-rebate. Both York reps said that I should be fine, but I still have my doubts about being oversized.

I will see how the Trane guy will do tomorrow. Over the phone, he stated that York is a good brand, but Trane is the best. I will see when he comes in what he has to say, as I have some technical question prepared for him (such as triple evac, superheat/subcool :D)

2.5 tons would be oversized in a cooling climate, but in this case I'm not convinced it's such a bad thing. The usual rule of thumb is to size to cooling for maximum comfort in the summer and let the aux heat pick up the slack in the winter. In your climate though, that extra heat pump capacity and reduced aux heat dependence in the winter would probably be appreciated more than a ton smaller unit in the summer.

thanks

I got the AHRI number - 6485202

the coil is some custom made ADVANCED DISTRIBUTOR PRODUCTS -I think it's parto of the HE series: H,YE48936+TD

Duplicate

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Nov 19, 14 at 13:12

6485202 Active Coil (Mix-Match) ADP YORK BY JOHNSON CONTROLS YZF03013C ADVANCED DISTRIBUTOR PRODUCTS H,YE48936+TD 1000 28400 12.00 14.50 28000 8.20 18100 1 HRCU-A-C 243 727

Very mediocre HSPF efficiency on third party ADP coil. I would want to know the numbers with a matching York coil. Might be worse.

TD

tigerdunes

This is the York performance sheet:

http://upgnet.com/Site/Catalog/PDFFile.asp?f=632151-YTG-G-0714.PDF

Same HSPF with their coils FC/MC/PC37 or FC/MC/PC43.

I just checked the AHRI directory, the only matches with either the YZF or YHJF and York coils that get 14.5 SEER are with high efficiency indoor blowers. So you are going to have to deal with the decreased HSPF on the 3rd party coil if you are keeping that furnace. If you want 9+ HSPF you need a matching York coil and high efficiency blower.

If you are really keeping the furnace, you might want to shop around and look at other HVAC brands that might be able to get higher performance/efficiency ratings with a non high efficiency blower.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Nov 19, 14 at 13:41

hvtech42,

any ideas of such HPs? I've only seen higher HSPFs on two-stage HPs, but they are considerably more expensive ...

The air handler or electric furnace if you will is the problem with the PSC blower motor.

I would just ask the York dealer if there are any other system configurations that he could offer that meet the rebate qualifying standard plus have a higher HSPF efficiency. It's sad to be tying an important and expensive decision to a less than ideal situation.

Did Trane dealer offer any help?

TD

Ok,

I got a quote from the Trane guy. 2 ton XL15i + H,TG81936 coil to meet 14.5 SEER - see AHRI 6501508. With 10 year labor warranty (from a 3rd party company Cornerstone), the total was $4950, which is significantly lower ($1250) than the YORK.

How does the XL15i compare to the YORK YFZ?

Btw, The AHRI says "H,TG81936+TD", not sure what TD means? Time delay?

"Btw, The AHRI says "H,TG81936+TD", not sure what TD means? Time delay?"

It might mean check with TigerDunes before you buy it ;-)

This post was edited by Dovetonsils on Wed, Nov 19, 14 at 20:22

Both the XL15i and YZF are nice, very comparable units. Similar efficiency, both have single speed scroll compressors and demand defrost. Some people like one or the other more (I suspect tigerdunes will prefer the Trane) but personally I am indifferent.

The York a 2 1/2 ton, the Trane a 2 ton.

6501508 Active Coil (Mix-Match) ADP TRANE 4TWX5024B1 ADVANCED DISTRIBUTOR PRODUCTS H,TG81936+TD 800 23000 12.00 14.50 20000 9.00 11600 1 HRCU-A-C 197 441

I do like the Trane better but there is the question of correct sizing. I can't answer that. I suspect the dealer quoted you this way because of the qualifying standard.

TD

hi TD,

The Trane guy even suggested 1.5ton, but given the size of the basement, the 2ton seems to be more appropriate (and the extra heating capacity is welcomed). I had a guy from the eco-rebate do a blower test, and the leak is about 2.5, which he said was good - just need to seal some vapor barrier in the basement.

The only reason why the York quote was for 2.5 tons is to qualify for the eco-rebate (and I think 2.5 was a bit oversized).

so if they are comparable units and I will save $1200 with the Trane (plus the higher HSPF), it seems to be a no-brainer.

Tre trane dealer has not been in business for long time (compared to the York), but it is listed on the Trane site as "trane comfort specialist" (there are only two in the region) for whatever it's worth. Albeit being younger, the Trane rep seemed to be more technical than the York guy (although none of them was able to answer some installation questions).

If you feel comfortable about the sizing, then the 2 ton Trane is the nicer of the condensers. You noticed the higher HSPF, not an insignificant detail. Plus you get the protective top, a nice feature if you get a lot of snow, sleet, etc.

What size is your living space?

Just wondering but the 15 KW might be oversized and of course will cost you more money when in operation.

Anything about a HP thermostat? You will need one.

And of course a new and properly sized lineset.

IMO

tigerdunes,

it's 1025 sq ft plus same size basement, which has a patio door walk-out and big windows.

I am currently using my BayWeb Advanced thermostat, and insist on keeping it, as it's the only thermostat that I was able to find that's using Ethernet cable as opposed to WiFi to communicate (I don't like/trust wireless :) )

http://www.bayweb.com/internet-thermostats/advanced-internet-thermostat/

How do you tell if the lineset is properly sized?

New development, the guy can't get the H,TG81936 coil matching the XL15i (to get the AHRI ratings)

He said he'd give the XR17 instead for the same price. I checked AHRI, and the only coil only combo that matches the 14.5 min SEER is :

7069982 Active Systems TRANE XR17 TRANE 4TWR7024A1 4NXCB004AS3 800 600 24600 12.20 15.00 23400 8.50

This combo has better EER/SEER, but lower HSPF (which is somehow important).

What do you think for the trade - XL15i vs XR17?

too bad about the HSPF eff rating.

The obvious question is why the dealer can't get that coil?

Still would go with Trane and definitely would get rid of the 15 KW heat strip for at least a 7.5 or 10 KW size.

You have verified with dealer that your current thermostat is HP compatible?

Pricing includes new and correctly sized lineset?

IMO

thanks TD,

the dealer could not get it because it's some 3rd party (ADP) coil, which apparently not every supplier has (don't forget we are in Canada, so we always have less choices). He said he verified with 2 suppliers. He also said that the XR17 costs more, but he would install it for the same price (which is possible due to the dual stage compressor), .

Pros for the XR17 - dual stage, more efficient in cooling.
Pros for the XL15i - higher HSPF, 2 more years warranty on compressor, ice cap.

My furnace has a "mild season" setting that uses only half the strip, so it's effectively 7.5 Kw. In fact in the manual they say to leave it to 7.5kw when used with HP.

I have verified with the company that makes the thermostat. Form their webpage

As for the lineset - I currently don't have lineset, so it is implied as part of the installation (the quote only states "installation on brackets", should I ask him to be more specific?).

And what do you mean by "PROPERLY SIZED" lineset? Do you mean the diameter of the pipes (which is stated in the installation manual) or the length?