Hiya. I'll be happy to hash it out with you, but I'm feeling a little out of my depth with a room like that. Lots of dark, glossy surfaces is a new deal for me. I'm interested, but take what I say with a big grain of salt.

The painting is going to be easy to deal with, so I'm trying to think about the bigger picture. It's easy enough to put light on the counters and work surfaces but, at least as I'm picturing it, those dark surfaces make it exceptionally hard to get any amount of ambient light bouncing around. The high-gloss, combined with lots of point-sources of direct light, may be more sparkly than you want it to be. It's sounding dramatic, but potentially rather rough on the eyes.

Help me get a better feel for the room. Which direction do those windows on the right face? When you look out of them, what do you see - the sky, a tree, the yard, the side of a neighbor's house? Will those upper cabinets go all the way to the ceiling?

Thanks so much, Jon. The windows face south, and look out over our deck and lots of trees. The adjacent dining room has a set of french doors that face the same direction as the windows, and they now provide some light for the kitchen during the day. (I say "now", because the large cased opening was previously only 28 inches wide). Those french doors are very close to the kitchen....the wall that they are on is perpendicular to the spot where the refrigerator and island meet. (The area where to the right of the pantry, with the frig, tall cabinet, desk, etc., actually juts out from the rest of the house. It was previously a breakfast nook, and we're trying to make the whole thing more like a galley kitchen.)

In looking at my sketch, I hope it doesn't mislead about the area between the dining room and kitchen. The island fills 3ft 3 in of the 6 ft 6 in opening between the two rooms.

The upper cabinets will stop a foot short of the ceiling. I see what you mean about the potential to be "sparkly". One thing that may help a little is that we'll only have upper cabinets on that one short wall. Might some sort of up-light on top of them throw some light on the ceiling to help with ambient lighting in that area? We could go with a white ceiling, too, if that would make a difference. Just throwing out ideas....luckily, we're still at a stage where we can make changes fairly easily.

I thought that looked like a former breakfast nook. It sounds like natural light is decent during the day, probably best in the areas around the desk and range in the morning, and not good for much except ambiance in the evening except around the fridge/tall cab area. There's a triangular section of the island, between the fridge and that 24" wall to the right of the cased opening, that will always be in shadow. I'm guessing the sink area rarely gets enough natural light to work comfortably in for any length of time. Am I on track?

Thanks for clarifying the opening by the island.

Looking at that photograph on the cab manufacturer's website, it's obvious that almost none of the light is coming from those little low-voltage downlights in front of the bank of tall, black cabinets. The room is filled with light from diffuse, unseen sources: probably skylights or high windows.

I was thinking of over-cabinet lights when I asked whether the uppers go to the ceiling. I believe a foot of space overhead is enough to work with. The eight-foot length would accomodate two four-foot T8 fluorescent fixtures, and you could use dimming ballasts so you could control the amount of uplighting. I haven't seen a color chip of the ceiling/wall color, but I am inclined to think that lighter -- not white, but lighter -- might be good. You might then use some low-voltage downlinghts in front of those upper cabs, similarly to those in Alno's pic. Then maybe a run of low-voltage track over the sink counter, which you can use to light the counter, the painting and other parts of the wall if you care to, in a very gallery-esque way.

Anyhow, that's the start I'm imagining...

Sounds like you've got a clear idea of how the natural light works in our space, and I like the idea of indirect light from above the upper cabinets. I do have a gap, though, on that one wall with upper cabinets, where the range hood comes down from the ceiling. (I've attached a link that shows the hood that we'll have). Can I still go with the idea of fluorescents above the upper cabinets, or will we be creating unwanted glare at the top of the hood chimney? The cabinet to the right of the hood will be 24 inches wide, and to the left will be 39 inches wide (60 cm and 100 cm, to be exact).

I also like the idea of track lights above the sink counter. I think that it will, as you say, add to the gallery feeling. Would you think a similar, perhaps shorter, track would be good for lighting the island, or would you just go with recessed fixtures?

Here is a link that might be useful: range hood

Just realized that the link for the hood that I posted is not the EXACT one that we will have. We do have the one that is designed to be mounted against the wall, but it looks just like the one in the picture that I linked to.

Hi again. Sorry to leave you hanging -- my last few days have been very busy.

I missed that gap in the upper cabs, in your original drawing. That may make fluorescents more challenging - I'm not sure what length tubes would fit those lengths best. You could also look into xenon strip lights that can be cut to length, such as those used for cove and undercabinet lighting, though fluorescents would probably be a better choice if you can make them work. You might seek out dmlove or gibby3000, both of whom have done overcabinet fluorescents, for some insights about how it might work for you.

I'm inclined to use track over the island too, more for aesthetic consistency than function. Is there any chance you might want to hang (and light) artwork on that 24" wall to the right of the cased opening?

How do you see the space that was the breakfast nook being used? What will be stored in that tall cabinet next to the fridge? The base cab next to the desk? I'm less sure how to handle that area.

No need to apologize, Jon. Given what you're charging for your advice, I can hardly complain :-).

I'm still liking your idea about fluorescents above the cabinets on the stove wall. In fact, I'm contemplating a shorter cabinet on that wall to create a larger gap between the top of the cabinet and the ceiling. The fixtures shouldn't be too tough...I think a 24 inch on one side and a 36 inch on the other will work nicely.

A couple other changes are likely as well. I've altered my drawing to reflect them. The former nook always bothered me in the prior plan, and at the last possible moment I delayed my cabinet order to be sure that I had it right. The desk and the base cabinet that was there (and always felt like an orphan to me) is gone, and will likely be replaced by a very small bistro table and a couple of stools. It'll be a spot to drink coffee and look out the window. The island/refrigerator configuration changes a bit as well. The tall cabinet next to the refrigerator moves to the other side and gets wider, to hold an oven and a built-in microwave. As a result, the countertop on the island is shortened, although it is still a usable size. (The new location of the tall cabinet means that it will cover the 24 inch wall, eliminating the possibility of it being a place to display art.)

So, it's my turn to apologize for getting your advice and then changing the plan. I do think the new layout will be better for us, and may make the task of lighting it somewhat less complicated. And, I don't think we'll need to change the basic approach of indirect lighting above the cabinets on the stove wall, with tracks for the sink wall and island. I hope I'm not wrong about that...

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w132/revans1/Untitled-1.jpg

{{!gwi}}

Okay, if you're switching the floor plan around...

I like the bistro table. The desk and extra cab did look lost over there to me, too.

How low are the bottoms of those windows? Could you put a run of shallow (maybe 12"?) base cabs along that wall for storage, with a run of countertop almost like a giant windowsill?

I'm also concerned that there's no longer a good landing zone for the fridge, because there is no counter surface within reach of someone standing in front of it. I think it may have been better to have the fridge, rather than the ovens, next to the island.

Or maybe I should butt out?

The bottoms of the windows are 28 inches off the floor. I don't think that cabinets along that wall are really feasible.

You make a good point about the fridge. That was more of a decorating decision than an ergonomic one, and maybe we need to revisit it. The refrigerator is going to be clad in a graphite-colored material that the cabinet carcasses are made from. (So will the dishwasher, which will be at the end of the run with the sinks.) The island base cabinet will be red. (Previously there were going to be 2 island base cabinets that were red, but one of those is being replaced by the new tall cabinet for the ovens.) We sort of defaulted to red for that new tall cabinet, and then concluded that it needed to be next to the red base cab, instead of sandwiching the graphite refrigerator between two red cabs. I can't get the glossy red laminate for the fridge, or I'd just do that whole wall in red.

I'm telling you more than you want to know, probably. I think it should be fairly easy to switch the positions of the fridge and the ovens, and that does put the fridge next to countertop. In fact, my wife just now walked in and I told her about it, and she agrees with you. So, that's probably settled. We'll just make the oven cabinet graphite to match the fridge....saves a little money on my already-busted budget too.

Am I right that lighting this stuff should be a little more straightforward with this floorplan?

The only thing that bugs me is that the tall cabinet and fridge partially block the view of the windows, make the island shadowy and create that funky nook between themselves and the window. I keep wishing they weren't there, so you could have a clear view and a longer stretch of better-lit counter along that wall. The only solution I can see, though, would be to scrap the tall oven cabinet and put the fridge to the right of where the cooktop is now, which in turn forces you to move the cooktop, which throws the whole thing back up in the air, which isn't what you asked for...

Yes, I think the lighting is looking simpler.

I see where you're coming from, and there is an element of compromise to the whole plan (I guess there always is.) For what it's worth, the fridge used to sit where the island is now, and there was just a 28 inch cased opening between it and the countertop to the right of the stove. The whole thing felt dark and tiny and claustrophobic, and after 5 years of that we're ready to make some compromises to achieve a roomier-feeling space. We tried everything we could think of to get the fridge off that wall, but it invariably led us to enormous challenges like load-bearing walls and moving plumbing around that comes through a concrete slab. I think that the "funky nook" (I don't disagree) will be filled with a tall, decorate stand that holds lots of plants right by the window, so it may look more fitting in real life than it does on the plan.

Also, I think that the island is probably less shadowy than you're picturing it, due to the proximity of double French doors in the dining room. I just measured, and it's only 42 inches from the edge of the infamous 24 inch wall to the edge of the glass on those doors.

In short, our strategy is to always compare it to how bad it used to be, instead of how great we wish it could be. Glass half full, and all that.....

Well, I didn't think I was being premature when I asked for help on lighting the original design of this kitchen. Everything seemed to be settled enough to proceed....but it looks like things were more changeable than I dreamed possible at the time.

Jon, I mentioned to my wife your thoughts about a long run of base cabinets, with nothing "tall" in the window area, and she totally ran with it. I think it addressed some things that were bothering her that she couldn't quite put her finger on. So, here's my latest effort to sketch out where we seem to be now. I'm going to meet with the cabinet guy on Tuesday to make sure that this is all feasible from his standpoint, but I think we're feeling really good about a direction more like this:

{{!gwi}}

From a lighting standpoint, it seems to me that lights above the cabinetry on the wall that now holds the frig make more sense than ever, since there's more of that shiny black surface along there to deal with. I'm guessing that the more indirect light we can produce in that area, the better off we'll be.

We're still looking at the large painting above the sink, and the need to light it well. We'll also have an opportunity to display more art on the wall to the left of the pantry.

Task lighting on the countertops will present a new challenge, since I don't really have any area where I can use under-cabinet lighting.

Obviously, we've got to get settled on floorplan (really settled, as opposed to the false sense of security I had on that issue before.) I would like to know if anything leaps out about this approach, at first glance. Any hip-shot reactions from anyone?

How did the meeting with the cabinet guy go?

If you want to toss around more floor plan options, there are some very talented layout people on the kitchen forum.

Thanks very much for asking, Jon. I did post in the kitchen forum with a request for reactions to my proposed plan, but things move so fast over there that my post was on page 5 before I knew it. Did get a couple of good responses, though.

The meeting went well. Still have a couple details to iron out, but I think we're going to go largely in the direction that you suggested.

The frig is now on the short wall opposite the windows, and the only true wall cabs we'll have will be the high-gloss black laminate on that wall next to it. I did bear in mind the idea about indirect lighting for that area, and made sure that we have about 18 inches between the top of the cabs and the ceiling. And, those upper cabinets match the frig top in height, so there is one continuous run across that wall on which to place the fluorescents. There's also about a 5 foot run of that where we can use under-cabinet lighting for task purposes.

There will be a set of silver (aluminum) cubes with frosted glass fronts over the black cabinets just in front of the window. These will measure 16 x 48 inches total, and will be lit inside as well as having lights underneath for task lighting on those cabinets. They're in the bottom right hand corner of the page that I'm linking to (back to the Alno site.) It actually shows 6 of them in the picture...we'll have 3, in a horizontal row.

Still plan to have the large painting above the sink, and will want to light it well. May also have some spots on either side of the hood for displaying some smaller pieces, but I'm somewhat less concerned about lighting them. It would be nice, but it isn't critical like the large one will be.

Here's my best shot at representing where we are today. I'm thinking we'll stick with this or something very, very close to it. I'm ready to stop planning and start doing. Had 775 sq ft of black slate delivered today, so I'm at least going to be making progress on flooring.

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: cubes

Sounds like it's getting exciting. Have fun, and keep us posted!

We've finalized plans, ordered cabinets, and agreed not to look back any more. Here's the floorplan:

{{!gwi}}

Still going with the black slate floor, medium gray countertop, and lighter gray walls and ceiling. I'm thinking that some sort of contemporary track lighting will be nice for the countertops. I'd even go with the cable lights, except I'm afraid that they'd hang too low in front of the painting over the sink.

This is my best representation of the sink wall:

{{!gwi}}

It is possible that our painting may be even more attractive than the one I mocked up in Microsoft Paint with the spray can tool :-). As described on the drawing, the "upper cabinets" on the left of the pantry door are silver, with the fronts entirely covered in frosted glass doors. They'll have lights inside them, as well as undercabinet lights below them.

The fridge wall is going to be really dark:

{{!gwi}}

Don't be confused by the size difference in the drawings. The "scale" here is about double the other drawings on this post. There will be room for lights on top of the upper cabinets (about 17 inches from top of cabs to ceiling), and we can use undercabinet lighting on this wall as well.

The stove wall will look like this:

{{!gwi}}

The large opening leads to the dining room, which gets pretty decent natural light from both north and south. The wall areas here may offer other opportunities to display smaller art pieces.

The lighting questions that remain unresolved: Should we go with fluorescents above the uppers on the fridge wall? Tracks for the countertop lighting? Use the same tracks to light any art on the walls? Have a row of recessed fixtures down the aisle?

Thanks very much for any advice or suggestions!

Bumping this up. Things are moving along, and I'm trying to line up the drywallers/painters/electricians/plumbers/etc, Gotta make some decisions pretty soon. Suggestions will be appreciated.

Just to complete the record on this thread, we have come to the following conclusions based in part on advice received here and from others, and in part based on some budget considerations:

We will have 2 ceiling fixtures down the center of the "aisle". These will go where the previous fixtures were. Each fixture will have 4 independently aimable 50 watt halogen bulbs.

There will be a pendant over the island from the same series as the 2 ceiling fixtures, with 4 50 watt halogen bulbs arranged in a line.

Two small, low-voltage recessed lights will illuminate the art above the sink.

We'll have xenon strips under the wall cabinets next to the stove, and xenon strips on top of the wall cabs and fridge to provide indirect lighting.

We'll have xenon (I think) pucks in and below the small glass-doored cabinets that are down near the 2 windows.

Finally, the hood we're using has 2 halogen lights in it, for lighting the stove surface.