Hello, I'm your creative daughter who likes to take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and make something she thinks is beautiful, along with making up songs, dances and plays. Only I'm all grown up.

My mother chose to let me keep things up for days, adding to them as I wished. It was fun, and I liked not having to clean up regularly, as did my friends.

However, I grew up with an ever-expanding mess, not understanding that if you don't clean the mess when it's small, it ends up entirely unmanageable. My sister's and my bedroom floor used to be so covered with the results of our creative play that you had to make a path through it all to get to the beds. And then, most of the time, it was my mother who ended up cleaning the mess, instead of we who made it.

I was ill-prepared for a world in which you're expected to take care of your things and clean up your own messes.

You know your daughters far better than I, but I would really consider instituting a rule that everything has to be cleaned as it goes, or at minimum, before bedtime, and that the girls have to be the ones to clean it.

Perhaps you could consider taking pictures of their creations to make a memory book, or maybe you could have them take mental snapshots.

Honestly, I don't see this as mean or stifling their creativity, at all. It's simply a result of having a small space that you want to be fairly organized, and wanting to teach your daughters that the things they play with must be cared for.

In spite of their pleas, which I would ignore after the first explanation, I have no doubt that you will not stunt their creativity by requiring them to clean up everything once a day. In fact, some measure of organization is necessary for creativity. (This is a hard-learned lesson for me.) Anyway, your daughters will go on to new creations the next day.

Best of luck.

I have the same problem, but mine is boys stuff...GeoTrax, several sets of Thomas wooden trains, hot wheels, and megablox. My ds's (almost 5 and almost 3) are probably budding engineers or other scientists like most of the rest of the family. I hate to discourage them. I took down the Christmas tree the other day and told the boys that they could have about an 8' x 12' area there to set up all the stuff. Anything outside of the designated area may be dismantled by me and put into timeout. I've only done this for about 3 days, but so far it's working.

My oldest ds loves to draw pictures of volcanoes and of course, they are all treasures. I put them on the refrigerator for a while and then as they get replaced I put them in a 3 ring binder for viewing. We haven't run out of space in the binder yet so I'm not sure what we'll do next. You might try one of the small photo albums and tell your dd that blueberry would like his things in there so she can see them better.

My next move is to get into the toy boxes and see what we can purge. This task is extra hard for me because I have a 14 mo dd who will need some of these younger toys in a short time. DS #1 is into money and how much things cost. I'm trying to convince him that we can sell some of his stuff that he doesn't play with very much at a garage sale and he'll have money to buy new stuff. If that doesn't work, my next step is to send the kids out with dh one day and older toys will disappear.

I can understand what Joann is saying about messes and being unprepared for the workplace. I have seen that and then the people who have such clean desks that you wonder if they included all of the important things because they threw so much stuff out. I'm not sure what a happy medium is. I believe that kids only have one time in their life just to be kids. I think you can organize them in small ways when they're little (like limiting toys to a box or certain area) and work harder on them during the teenage years (I hope).

I have a sunroom filled with toys and I honestly believe that cluttered toys clutter children's minds and hamper creative play. They react to those piles just like we do and will eventually start avoiding them as they mysteriously grow out of control. Humanity has done just fine with sticks, stones and mud. Now, this is coming from someone who has tons of space and or money invested in Playmobile and old-style Fisher Price Little People toys, so I'm not all together on this one. But when my duaghters' bedroom is too cluttered, they don't get a snuggle at night b/c I'm afraid to walk into their dark room.

I believe someone, perhaps Talley, emphasized the importance of shelving as an organizational tool. I want to buy shelving for my sunroom (which really doesn't have any walls, its all windows), and what doesn't fit on the shelves is given away. I've already donated our two sets of Discovery Toys marble raceway to our school. Duplos are next, then Playmobile. I can't part with the Fisher Price Little People.

Karen:

I had dozens of those adorable "Fashion Pollys" with their stretchy clothes for my five year old (her name is Caren), seven and nine year old girls. Little pieces of clothing were strewn all over the house. Plus accessories. We had a shopping mall, four cars, a cute little house, furniture and LOADS of clothes. I threw it all away about two months ago (except for two cars) and nobody has missed them at all. Unless the Barbies are ballerinas, we don't really do Barbies either. And here's what my daughters love best next to beanies and baby dolls: the little Pokemon figures from three and four years ago that my sons collected. These girls set up elaborate "lands" and castles for the Pokemon with blocks, Duplos, and other stuff. The Pokemon drive the remaining Polly cars.

I love these precious, supple minds and I don't want to destroy them with clutter! I hope it's not too late!

About getting rid of toys, one thing we do with my niece Chloe, who is three, is to talk to her about how there are children in the world, and even in our own towns, who don't have any toys at all to play with.

Then, we ask her if she has any toys that she doesn't play with anymore that other children might enjoy. She *loves* picking out toys for these kids, though we don't send anything that doesn't have the parts necessary to play with it - we just toss it out when Chloe isn't looking.

By the way, I highly recommend these bins from Target. We have two sets, and they're very easy for kids to use. We labeled ours with pictures and names of what goes in each bin. Chloe is responsible for cleaning up her toys when she's done playing, and the bins (and some shelves) are an easy solution.

Here is a link that might be useful: toy bins

talking about kids w/o toys doesn't work w/ my DD--she says, "give them money, so they can buy new ones of their own, just like they want"

She has figured out that what I *really* want it to get rid of it.

DD is 10; she does that "grab stuff from different categories and play w/ them altogether." And she and DS set up the Imaginextcastles in the living room. I don't like to dismantle them, either.

BUT....

* the MAKING is most of the fun (not all; they do play w/ them)
* often (but not always) they will NOT come back to that "installation" and play with it again the next day.

so, I'll let them leave it set up for overnight. If they don't play w/ it at their next opportunity, I make them take it down.

Ditto the smaller "installations"--the ones that are only 4 inches long or so, I mean. Like stuffed animals w/ ponytail-holders and Barbie clothes.

I don't always have time or attention to make them put it away, but I do.

And as for stuff DD has that's like your girl's Blueberry things, I throw them out when she's not looking. Because the fun is in the making them, and she's not said because they won't be around, she's upset because they're being rejected. As long as she doesn't *know* they're being rejected, she's happy--she'll just make a new one.

this is absolutely the hardest part, and it's the one I do worst.

It has all the stress of being one of those "lessons we must teach our children for their future" as well as the frustration of being "not my stuff" plus belonging to "someone who can argue back, fight, cry, and defy."

this is just so hard for me. I have solutions that work sometimes. But not that often, mostly because what my family does NOT have is time at home.

In answer to part of the question...on the large things.. blankets over chairs, etc. I let my dd leave that sort of thing up for a few days, then down it comes. And I tell her this and she can re-create it all in a week. But usually after a few days, she's on to something else.

All toys should be picked up at nap time and bedtime...something I read somewhere, which makes good sense to me, otherwise we're constantly picking up.

I found that my dd puts all her toys away the closer they are to her play area. So I've bought a huge shelving unit...w/storage on the bottom that's enclosed. Above that it's like a hutch...shelving that sits back alittle further for books and it's the whole length of my wall. All our books adult and kids are in the same place and the toys stored below. She doesn't play in her room and since she's only in there to sleep, it never got picked up, plus it was in every room of the house.

It's not such a chore to put stuff away in the same room they're played in.

I like the twice a day pick-up idea. That's good. Have the pre-schoolers pick-up at naptime, then everyone picks up before bedtime.

I read somewhere the notion of having a "Silent Butler" go through the house every night and take toys left on the floor to help motivate the children to clean daily. I think it was Don Aslett. So we tried that. But our problem is that our children don't care enough to get the toys out of "jail." They have so many toys that half of them don't matter. We're still trying to refine this idea, of course the obvious solution is to toss 60% of our toys.

My four youngest have moved all the Playmobile into the family room for play purposes. It's good to see them playing together so graciously. Let's hope they're that gracious this afternoon when it's time to put the Playmobile away!

cupofkindness...if I notice my daughter doesn't play with something, I put it away and if she doesn't ask about it, it goes off the the thrift world. I"ve gotten rid of 3 HUGE stuff animals and she's never asked about it.

Ok- This comes from a teacher point of view as well as someone who has a degree in child development. You can take it for what it is worth:

In Classrooms (like daycares and preschools and K room) kids are required to pick up at least two sometimes three times a day. The reasoning being that a. other kids play with the toys and the deserve to start fresh too b. kids can't think in clutter very well and neither can teachers. c. safety in that you can't walk without tripping etc. also is part of the reasoning here.

I carry this into my house to some degree. I have three kids 5, 3, and 1+. Two boys and a girl. I let them play with what they want and they can play with how they want provided they are not taking away from each other-- playing nice.

And now my home and my theory in practice---
We pick up daily - once before nap I expect everything to be picked up and once in the evening before their father gets home. If everything is picked up and if their father is not home yet, they can watch a video. This works great for my son who is a tvholic.

The exceptions to picking up completely are this: 1. if they have some creation before nap- a tent house, a train world, polly pocket home whatever they can leave it out until dinner time, as long as it's out of the way. Not on their bed at nap time for example. At dinner time though, things are picked up. 2. If it is on the train table.

We bought a big train table with the buckets at the end of the table. I rotate toys including what is in the train table buckets. - blocks, legos, little people, etc at any given time are in the train table buckets. IF they set up this elaborate train set or a great lego building, as long as it is on the train table, they can leave it there. The train table toys are usually building toys that typically get moved and torn down and rebuilt daily so those change pretty quickly and get put up to make room for other buildings.

As for sorting out toys into the right bins daily- I don't do that. We have a big toy box in the front room where they play. Some toys are behind the couch in the plastic shoe boxes. Polly Pockets, etc - those things with small pieces. Those are the toys that they typially pull out from behind the couch, open the box and play with them in their room or on their bed- the little pieces typically get put back into the right box. But I don't worry about it. When we pick up, whatever is on the floor get thrown into the toy box. The kids help me pick up and if they want I do let them put the small pieces in the right bin, but if I'm helping I grab and toss.

And because I rotate toys- once a week or every two weeks I dump everything out and the kids and put toys up, resort as needed, exchange toys. This is when the polly pocket shoe that got thrown in the toy box gets put back with it's mate in the right bin. Etc.

I have also gotten rid of many toys. As I write this however I can think of train things I need to get rid of because my kids have never really played with it. Sigh. I kept it thinking one of the other kids would like it but so far- no luck.

It really is that simple and really that complicated. I just make the time to rotate toys. Everything centers around that. When we rotate toys everything gets sorted out perfectly. Because we rotate toys not everything is out at once and that makes it easier to a. clean house b. pick up every day c. control how many toys are out with small pieces d. organize and make sure everything is in the right bin.

As for your daughter dragging things out of the house - we take things out to the car but they stay in the car. When we go in the store- the toys stay in the car.

As for all of her flat type creations- I also bought an art portfolio. IT's like a big envelope. I let my son keep all of his papers in there. He keeps every paper he touches. They all go in there. It sits at the end of his bed. When it is stuffed I go through it- sometimes alone, sometimes with him. It works for us. Big papers and small papers go in here. But only paper.

We have also done some things like I sat down and whipped up some bags for toys. My two older kids love to fill things with things. A small bin may have five cars, three dinosaurs, four crayons and sixteen pieces of paper. They love to just stuff things in things. I made some bags. I whipped up bags and this makes it easy to carry things around. If my boy's snowbear needs crayons for the day (becaue my boy is like your daughter with an animal whose needs change) - then snowbear puts the crayons in the snowbear bag and off we go. I have probably 10 bags designated for things- blocks, small dolls, etc. I have maybe another 10 bags with drawstrings for anything. They just get thrown in their toybox empty at the start of two weeks and stay filled until it's time to rotate toys.

So- based on my usual long winded response here are my thoughts for you:

1. Can you designate a place as a compromise- train table creations are ok, otherwise they go down?

2. Can you set a time that they have to pick up? Daily? I do it when their dad comes home so they know exactly what their schedule is. Can you do it on a set day? Every other day everything is totally picked up? I lean to a daily pick up at a set time so it is routine. I agree that it is the process at this age - the process of making the creation is important not the creation itself.

3. Can you provide your daughter some place for her creations? This ties into question one but also for her small books for blueberry? for the small things he has to have? A bag? An oatmeal box with a string tied to it? an art portfolio?

4. Do you have to have all of their toys out all of the time?

And after having said all of that- I think what you are really looking for is not the organizing help but more of the parenting help. Do you allow your children to make creations and leave them? And How do you tackle this as a mother? I'm not sure I helped at all.

What I would say to you as a teacher if you came to me is Go for it- encourage the creativity. When you see them no longer playing with a toy or creation show them how to take it down and put the components up. Or if they can no longer play wiht a type of toy because all the pieces are spread apart and put in wrong places, help them sort them out. You are the mother and you know best.

Ginger

Ginger:

What a great addition to a great thread.

To All:

Yesterday was a huge day for me, organization-wise. I bought a cheap, but good-enough chrome wire shelving unit that measures 48" wide by 18" deep by 74" tall. You see them at Container Store for hundreds of dollars (like a restaurant shelving unit), but this knock-off was about $75 at Lowe's. Home Depot didn't have a comparable unit, but had some close ones in a black finish. It took my son, my daughter and I about an hour to put it together. It really requires at least two people to assemble since its so large: five shelves.

It's now in a corner of our sunroom with an impressive array of toys on it. It can hold two large Sterlite 60 quart bins-boxes across each shelf perfectly, like they were made to go together. There is plenty of height, so the boxes are easy to get into. More importantly, I have gotten my floor back. I also bought a new cheap 6' by 9' green area rug to replace the old one that's filthy due to the remodel (we replaced all the carpeting in our house about a month ago).

Yesterday I told the children that we would clean and vacuum the sunroom once a week. Since the sunroom is our third living area, I can afford to leave the toys out for a period of days. Toys in the family room are put away daily since we vacuum a lot. But over time I want to move most of the playing into the sunroom. It's a great room since my kitchen nook windows look into it (my kitchen is landlocked). So I can always see what's happening and deal with fights quickly. Plus, it has a door to the backyard so the children can come and go as they please. They enjoy bringing food-type toys outside and they usually bring them back in, so it's a good arrangement for our family.

Anyway, I have to go now, but I am so grateful, especially to Talley, for the advice about the shelves. My little one's cannot reach the top shelves, so I have to help them get the toys down. Also, since this unit isn't as strong as I'd like, the trains and wooden blocks go on the bottom shelf. Lowe's also had some colorful bins that stack in four different sizes, which I might buy for little toys. I'll have to see how this all works.

~C

Now that the Christmas tree and decorations are out of the house, everything seems more spacious. I think my first post about having my daughter's creations all over the house may have been interpreted in exaggeration! It seems more manageable than I may have described.

(The follow up posts had many good ideas but some gave me a vision of limitless toys with no places to go piled up on forts and castles never to be disassembled for eternity. The children would be forever damaged with cluttered minds with no room for creativity! Thank goodness that is not our house.)

Since my girls were born and we knew we weren't having more children, we've continuously taken toys, equipment, and clothing to our local twins club sales. We also give things to two families with younger girl/girl twins. I have several boxes in the basement waiting to go to the next sale or to charity.

To my amazement, my girls said they don't play with their Fisher Price dollhouse anymore and would be willing to let me take it to the littler kids' room at preschool. That will make room for their Barbie castle in their room.

I took the girls to K-Mart yesterday and they helped me pick out new plastic boxes to go under their beds so they can put the Barbie castle stuff in the boxes.

My gut feeling for sorting through what to keep or throw away...or what to keep up or take down...isn't systematic but it is similar to what others here said. I put crafts in a big laundry basket to be sorted later (in case they ask for something a day or so after I would have thrown it away). I have storage bins in the basement for each girl's artwork. A back hallway is an Art Gallery.

The machine creations come down after the girls have lost interest in them. The little bags of misc. toys get emptied out when they are no longer played with. We clean up toys laying out before bedtime snack time.

The best things we invested in were single beds with bookshelf headboards. I had one when I was growing up and loved being able to keep my special toys, treasures, and favorite books there. Mine had sliding doors but they don't seem to make those any more so we got ones we liked from Pottery Barn teen catalog. I'm thinking about sewing "curtains" to keep the headboards looking neater. Now, they stuff the cubbies with favorite stuffed animals, dolls, and books. Later, I think they will want to make their shelves "pretty."

Keeping up with kids' clutter is an ongoing challenge that we just keep having to deal with, it seems. Thanks for the ideas! I think the first thing I'm going to do is clear out some older toys from the girls' room so the Barbie castle can go in there without a shoe horn.

Karen

Sounds great, Karen. Oh, I *loved* bookshelf headboards when I was a kid, and desperately wanted one. Just to have my favorite books (plus a flashlight, for when Mom turned out the light before I was done reading). I'll bet your girls will love them.

one small idea: I gave my DS and DD a "Silly Stuff Drawer" to hold small things that they DO play with that don't fit larger categories (not Legos, so it can't go in the Legos drawer)

It's just a Sterilite 3drawer unit, but the shallow drawers mean they can find things, and also, most important, there is a PLACE to "just stick stuff"--and you're allowed to!

So now, when we find ourselves holding something that we don't know where to put, it goes in the Silly Stuff Drawer.

oh, another thought about shelves:

Often I find that shelving units space the shelves too far apart. There's wasted space, or else I stack stuff on top of stuff in order to USE that space (or because it tempts me--hey, just stick the stuff in that space).

I find it useful (esp. w/ the kids, because their stuff is usually bulky enough to take the entire front-to-back space, so I don' t need headroom to lift stuff over) to add an extra shelf if I can.

Some shelving units won't allow you to space the shelves the way you want, but some do, and some even come w/ directions on how to order an extra shelf!

That would make more shelves down low where your kids can get them. (though keeping the stuff w/ lots of parts on the TOP shelves will help you control the mess)

Talley, we had the same type of thing, but instead of a "Silly Stuff" drawer it was a "Watchamacallit" bin. For us bins have been the answer. A big laundry basket for stuffed toys, a bin for "hard toys" such as action figures, brier horses, etc., one for legos, etc. Shallow bins work great under the beds. I found that even at very young ages, kids could categorize most things. Those that they couldn't went into the "watchamacallit" bin. Overall, it works great. I seldom let them leave things up overnight. Usually they can reset up a blanket fort and other such things in a matter of minutes again anyway. My kids are getting older now, so this is simpler. I think when parents lose control is when they make it too complicated, such as a barbie storage box that requires Barbie to stand just so in order to fit and requires them to hang all her clothes, or a hotwheel case that requires each car be carefully placed in one at a time. While the bins might not keep them quite as pristine, it makes putting them away so much quicker that the child is much more likely to keep up on putting them away. Even as an adult, I want clean-up to be simple, so as a child it is even that much more essential.

Brenda