From the words you've used and the description and detail of color you were able to give, my guess is that you'd enjoy a red that was mixed full spectrum and without black. It does make a difference and is especially noticiable with red, IMHO. I wonder what you'd think of Ellen Kennon's Grand Teton Clay. Might be a good brand and color method to check into.

It's funny because I work with a painter who insists that the primer under any red has to be a gray - a pretty dark gray because it helps with coverage and reduces the number of coats red or a red-orange will require. Depending upon the red, I'm okay with that. But if it's a particular brand or color, like full spectrum, I want a tinted primer used, not a gray one.

His argument is that a gray undercoat will not affect how the color renders. So in his mind, the color of the undercoat matters, but only from an application point of view and that's it. Somehow when all is dry, those affects and properties the gray primer brings to the color just disappear and are no longer of any consequence. The gray only "works" when and how he wants it to and then it just goes away.

The color of primer either affects coverage and the final outcome of a color or it doesn't. It can't just conveniently affect color characteristics on the front end and not the back end.

The conversation goes in the same circles every time. He is firmly rooted in "after two coats of color, the primer doesn't matter." My regular retort is "If the color of primer doesn't matter, then use the primer I want." Can you get a feel for how it goes??? :-)

I think gray primer deadens any luminosity a wall color may bring to a room. If the color is laden with gray and black to begin with, then gray, white or whatever color primer doesn't matter. But if the color is built with any potential of complexity and richness, then a white or the specified tinted primer is the better choice to the point than it's worth an extra coat or two IMO.

So needless to say, I'd recommend using a full spectrum primer if you find a full spectrum color that will work for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ellen Kennon Full Spectrum Paints

Lynnt...
Yes-your (nice!) "problem" is due to the transparent nature of this colors' dark tinting-base. These bases have very little hiding power...PLUS there's so much colorant added. It's like painting with red KOOL-AID vs. whole milk.

Therefore, areas that are thinly coated show more of the primer...which seems to be the effect you like.
>>> It may be worth having a quart tinted at 75-80% strength of the red. Prime a poster-board (or 3!) with your primer, then 2 coats of paint 5hrs. apart.
>>> One another board, try dry-brushing one-part of your cream color thinned with 4 to 5 parts of latex glaze on top of the dried red. Then, use a non-linting rag to softly blend/mute any brush strokes. The whole point here is to just leave a "hint" of the transparent cream color.

Funcolors...(I may get a little wordy here!)
I can see both of your points. Grays work under reds/wines (and many other dark colors) for a different reason than you might think...think back to your science classes! ;-)

> White reflects all colors.
> Grays/blacks DON'T reflect much light.
> Ti02 is Titanium-dioxide, a heavy white ingredient/pigment that has great hiding-power.
> Dark tinting-bases for reds/wines have little Ti02 (Titanium dioxide). Reason-it "mutes" the vibrant effect of the bright colorants. PLUS, the Red and Magenta colorants themselves are fairly transparent. PLUS (!), a LOT of it has to be added to make, say...RL Longjohn Red.

Soooo, Having gray underneath helps the Longjohn Red look correct SOONER because there's much less light reflecting through the fairly translucent topcoats. Pink primers under these aren't any better than white...they're still too white!
>>> On a strongly lit wall, I'd do 3 coats of this red (5-hr dry-time between!!) even on a gray primer!!
>>> Why 5 hrs.? Lotsa colorant slows dry times markedly.
>>> Separately; I like having my customers lift up a quart of Magenta colorant, then the White (Ti02). The eyes always pop open! The White is SO much heavier...same size can!
>>> C2 paint is a little different. 4 of their 16 colorants are high-strength versions of the regular colorant.

If youse guys are are still awake, I hope I shed some light (oooh...bad pun here?) on the subject!
Faron

Yeah, I know. I really do understand his point and his point is much like yours - it's alot (not toatlly) about sooner, not necessarily better.

Aside from complexity and depth, a major feature of full spectrum or multi pigmented color is luminosity. As you said, gray and black do not reflect, luminosity is not one of their characteristics. So if the choice is one, or even two, extra coats of red or one coat of gray - I say quote for an extra coat or two of color and leave the gray method for other brands because it won't affect too much in regard to color quality in those brands.

And, I have to spunkily disagree with you about the Lauren reds :-). Using the Lauren specified primer will get you closer to the color as represented on the Lauren chips. Short-cut with a gray when not called for, and you end up with a slightly different Lauren red. Not by oodles and gobs, but enough for some people to notice. I've seen Kilim, Hunting Coat and Balmoral both ways, with specificed primer and with gray. Since Lauren is Lauren, not sure it makes much difference unless someone is really picky, because both methods turn out lovely reds. A chocolate brown primer under Huntingcoat is REALLY interesting, and I recommend trying it.

When it comes to FS, multi pigmented, couture paints, using a light-gobbling gray underneath is counter intuitive to the way the colors were designed and built IMO.

Hi funcolors!
Hmmmm...you have a couple interesting points...!
("spunkily disagree"...that's pretty good!)

We've had RL for years now, and there's never been a "suggested primer" program. I've checked at Homedepot too.
>>> What are you referring to there?
>>> I'm not sure I'd call using gray a "shortcut". It's just using a basic property of light to cut reflectance underneath a "red". 99% of our clients are grateful when they find out they "won't have to do 5 coats like my friend did!" when we recommend gray-priming.
>>> There's another possibility out there...
* Not every retailer uses the same colorant out there for every brand. There ARE slight differences! It's mostly taken care of by different electronic formula-books for each colorant line. Our formula for Hunting-Coat Red will be slightly different than a big-box. Just depends on whose colorants go in.
(I'm not tryin' to sound all "Area-51-ish", but I'm not gonna comment beyond that.)
>>> This doesn't apply to C2...Every retailer has the same stuff there. "Venus Envy" made in ND will match same made in NH. Same tinters (usually COROB), same 16 colorants.

I'll wait for your reply!
Faron

Thanks for your insights! This is great!

All that's up right now is one good coat of the KILZ primer, tinted to Pottery Red. Thus the cut-in areas show much darker than the rolled parts, where the previous cream paint shows through, and I find I like the rolled parts better; a lighter color, less black as you both say. For this room with all its broken-up wall surfaces I'm trying to avoid the uncertainty, uneven color and effort involved in glazing. I have successfully ragged or sponged two other rooms, one in three tones of pale blue and the other in peach and lemon -- that one looks like parchment and shimmers in the sun! so I have confidence I could accomplish the techniques.

Interesting about the gray undercoat your painter likes, funcolors. It's an old portaitist's trick, going back hundreds of years, to lay an area of medium gray under sections intended to be skin-toned. The subsequent pinks and beiges laid on later have a much more lifelike appearance that way. Works for oils, pastels, gouache -- anything with any translucence at all. I don't see why it would work for walls though -- in the portrait, the idea is to show the flush of life overlaying our "cold clay".

I stopped by a Sherwin Williams store on my way to work yesterday to look over their range of colors. They do their printed color samples differently than Duron or Behr; the strips show a far wider range of intensities for a given mix, from deep-deep tones right through midrange colors to extreme pastels. I came out with copies of all their red/orange strips, and festooned them all over the wall last night to see how they'd do in different lighting conditions. Over breakfast we decided that "Rhubarb" is a real close match for Behr's Pottery Red, and that "Raspberry Blush" 2008-3 and "Pomegranate" 132-6 both are real close to the lighter areas -- Pomegranate is a bit pinker. I guess I need to check the Forum to see how people like SW paints in general.

Thanks for pointing be at Ellen Kennon, funcolors -- I've heard of her before, mostly through THS. Before I buy anything, I will check into the two ICI Paint stores in the Washington DC area -- I don't think this color match can readily be done over the phone/via email, eh?

And then we get to choose the flooring! Bamboo vs red oak, anyone?

Lynn

How about metallic paint as an undercoat? That would transmogrify any color applied over it. Any one up for a candy-apple red dining room?
Casey

I couldn't have said it any better Faron. Right on the money IMO. I know another painter who will use black paint for his primer sometimes . When working with any of the organic pigments that are by nature transparent, IMHO, I would opt for a medium to dark gray primer. If you are using any of the earth pigments for your red, then you could use a matched tinted primer.

Hey Faron! if you have an email I'd rather continue our discussion that way. I always enjoy talking color with you and it is wonderful that you are able to hear and comprehend differing points of view from your own. Your sense of humor makes it extra enjoyable. :-)

It is just very necessary for me to take our discussion away from this thread for reasons I'd really rather not share. You can email me at lori@colorstrategies.net if you want to continue an exchange of info about my first-hand experiences and experimentation with the Ralph Lauren and Full Spectrum reds.

Later,
Lori

"It is just very necessary for me to take our discussion away from this thread for reasons I'd really rather not share. You can email me at lori@colorstrategies.net if you want to continue an exchange of info about my first-hand experiences and experimentation with the Ralph Lauren and Full Spectrum reds."

I've been reading this thread with interest and just wanted to say if Faron or someone could summarize the technical points without violating any confidences, I for one would love to hear them.

Rachel

Hey Lori & Rachel,
I "sencha" an email Tues. nite. If you'd like, I can discuss/post to the extent that basic technical info. doesn't invade business privacy.
(e.g.; some stuff is available on internet searches, some isn't)

Hey Decorativewalls...Thank you for your kind note. We have used matched (or 75%-strength) primers, but we keep coming back to gray, because it's more "neutral"...light-wise anyway!
>> However, if one is gonna use a Neon-bright LIME color (or any bright "citrus" tone), then I'd use that color-formula into a tintable-primer that can handle that much colorant. Not all primers can.

Later,
Faron