Is she thinking that the spot is not ringworm but maybe another type infection. Honestly until you get some test results back I don't even see why this dog would be on antibiotics yet.

Lisa

Have to say I agree. When my daughter was small we changed peds because her first pediatrician would write a script for antibiotic for a runny nose. My husband and I are very concerned about the over-use of antibiotics. That said, the group I chose to change to had a very strict antibiotic philosophy. They would only write for antibiotics after a positive strep culture, positive chest & sinus, films, urinary tract infection or potential lyme prophalactic - which they no longer do for a lyme tick. They also wanted the tick...

My SIL's kids are on antibiotics all the time and their ped starts them out with these major antibiotics Biaxin, and I can't think right now of the names of some of the other lethal heavy duty antibiotics (which should be kept in reserve for those infections that are resistent to the starter antibiotics like amoxicillan) they are getting for an ear infection or strep throat. We always start with amoxicillan, with the exception of doxycycline for lyme. These kids are getting first course meds that my ped would have written as a second or third course of treatment for a stubborn ear or other bacterial infection. Guess what, I can count on both hands the number of times my 16 year old has taken an antibiotic. On the flip side, my SIL's kids are always sick, she is constantly calling her practice as soon as the kids get a fever of 1 degree above 98.6. Of course, the doctor is probably trying to just get her off the phone. That particular group will actually call in an antibiotic without seeing her children. Mine fortunately was given an opportunity to build immunities naturally. There have been years 2-3 where she's had no antibiotic treatment at all.

I do agree that the reason for these drugs being over written is in direct correlation to the drup rep perks given to physicians of all disciplines.

I am wondering if you got a script from your vet for the pharmacy to fill, would it be any cheaper. If it were me I think I would be asking, why don't we start with the best antibiotic to fit the diagnosis not the most expensive just because the vet is getting a weekend away for prescribing it over and over.

Four years ago I changed vets when my daughter was volunteering at a less local vet's office for Confirmation (we're Catholic). I called my then vet and asked her to go over all of their services I need, the meds, amounts and prices. When I compared the two, it was a no-brainer. Both practices offer U of Pa. trained vets. I had planned to change because I was getting the feeling of being ripped off, but I wanted to wait until my old gal passed so that I would not have to change her in the middle of 15 meds a day and many, many health issues. To my great relief and suprise, the transition was pain free. I requested copies of all 6 pet's records from my former vet, took them to the new practice and have been with them ever since. I can call and say, old gal has the runs, can I run over and get some Metronidazole? No problem because they trust that if the runs don't subside immediately after medicating her, I will be making an appointment. For the most part, as long as each pet has been seen for their yearly appointment and vaccinations, throughout the rest of the year, I can call for things rather than have no choice but to take the pet in. For instance, they will run urine and stool samples without having to see my pets. I have had pets long enough and know my pets well enough when they need to be seen. I can actually talk on the phone (former vet was never available for phone calls and would have another vet return my calls). New vet realizes my situation with old gal and knows that I am just trying to keep my old gal comfortable until the time comes.

So I am not feeling so ripped off by my vet, but I have been where you are now and it was so frustrating.

Good luck!

I've found Clavamox to be the preferred drug with my dog(s) and birds because it has fewer side effect and less chance of gastro upset. Plus, the antibiotic prescribed usually depends on the type of bacteria causing the problem and the health history of the pet. At least that's what my vet always bases her choice of meds on. Plus, my pet is 'very' sensitive to many meds and Clavamox is about the only one she can tolerate.

We have to remember that identifying the bacteria is crucial to treatment since one drug may have no effect but another will, so just choosing an antibiotic randomly isn't the best approach.

I would suspect your vet is prescribing the Clavamox to prevent secondary skin/systemic infections from the sore on your pet's back while she waits for tests results.

I still think it's a business-decision.

Cephalexin is much cheaper and is also used for skin infections. Vets just try to sell you stuff - that's for sure. They're selling you something because the drug salesman has convinced them somehow to prescribe that med. Maybe the profit margin is much higher. I can get the meds in Mexico too so I'm going to look into that.

vicky

The reps are convincing them by giving incentives, like trips, cars, etc. The bigger/more prescribed, ups the anty on the perk. I know a doc that actually received a car as a perk from a particular drug company. Of course it was the rep. that made the incentive, but it was the manufacturer behind it. I find it disgusting and very unethical.

Hmmmmmm........well, you ladies are seeing vets totally different from mine!

Instead of spending all this energy condeming your vet, use it to look for one you trust.

The last time I bought Clavamox it was about $1 per pill.

& ringworm is a fungus similar to athlete's foot, all the dog needs is an anti-fungal cream.

But...............the ringworm isn't diagnosed. She just had a ringworm test run because of a sore.

annz- I am not condemning my vet, I totally trust him and I am completely satisfied with my current practice as well as their med prices. If you reread my post, the complaint was about a former vet and same making money off of the medication dispensed from the vet office to the tune of about 3 times as much for the same meds I am getting from my current vet.

So yes, I have already found another vet - 4 years ago.

Also the complaint was the practice of prescribing antibiotics when same are not necessary.

I get VERY emotional about misusing antibiotics!

Vets are blamed for antibiotic resistence in humans, even though there are no studies to prove it. Food animal vets are always blamed, and it has resulted in several antibiotics being made strictly illegal to use in food animals.

We'd be living in a dream world if we thought that the antibiotic police won't come after small animal vets, especially if they keep prescribing the wrong antibiotic, the wrong dose, Abx when there is no evidence of a bacterial infection, and using the "big guns" when other Abx will do. We don't want the great privledge of the vet to be able to prescribe ANY drug s/he feels fit for our beloved pets. If that happens, even drugs as common as cephalosporins will be unavailable to the small animal vet, as NONE are labeled for small animals!

It is extremely important for vets to use their best clinical judgment and judicious use of Abx. Throwing Abx at viral infections, underdosing by time or dose, or using the wrong drug entirely WILL cause both problems in the individual patient and for the profession, therefore all dogs, cats, bunnies, ferrets, birds, etc. when the Abx are pulled from the veterinary market. Not to mention the public health implications, especially with the high number of people living with HIV, organ transplants, chemotherapy, and other immunodeficiency states that make these people at high risk for Abx-resistent infections.

So yeah, I get a bit emotional. As of right now, I've seen firsthand more Abx misuse by human doctors than by vets, but some vets are total pushovers and will Rx Abx just because the owner wants something. That is WRONG! We cannot allow pushover vets to ruin it for all of our animals, the way physicians are ruining the utility of many Abx for human use already.

As to the original post, I can't even figure out why Abx were Rx in the first place, which is kinda worrying me. Neither ringworm nor valley fever are bacterial diseases, so what exactly is the vet treating? And did the dog have clinical signs of ringworm or valley fever to even warrant testing? The whim of the owner is not a good reason to waste a client's money IMHO, not matter how savy or smart the owner- it's the vets's job to decide what testing is needed. That's why we go to post-grad school for 4+ years!

As to the price structure, I do know that in most businesses, the higher the cost of a product, the less markup it will have. So proportionately, the vet loses money by prescribing the more expensive drug. I'd rather make a 300% profit margin on a cheap drug than only a 200% profit on the more expensive drug. I've never known a vet to get anything other than a bulk discount for using certain drugs. I can see the logic in stocking just clavamox vs cephalexin because they both treat basically the same problems but the clavamox has less chance of GI upset. It's useless to Rx an oral drug that the animal can't keep down. OTOH, there could be some money-motivating factor in Rx Clavamox vs cephalexin that I'm not thinking of right at the moment.

I've been in the vet business for a long time, and I can tell right away the kind of practice that will soak people for money. They are the same practices that vaccinate every animal for every infectious disease every year regardless of risk, perform every diagnostic test available (mostly a CYA thing because they don't know what they are trying to accomplish with testing anyway) for any given problem regardless of the possibility of that particular animal having that particular disease being tested, and have price leaders such as cheap spays instead of charging what things are truly worth. Clients are not stupid, and know when they are being taken for a ride. It will eventually cost these types of practices more in the long run because as clients get angry and leave, the practice has to recruit more clients, which is much more expensive than retaining the old ones. But that's little consolation now.

As a client, every person has a right to know 1) why a diagnostic test is needed and what the vet expects to learn from the results 2) why a particular treatment is being prescribed and what are the expectations of that treatment (will it cure the disease, manage clinical signs, what are the side effects, etc.) and 3) what are ALL the options in treating each condition. You certainly have a right to know if a less expensive alternative is available. If any of this information is lacking, please ask your vet! I hope s/he can answer all of your questions, and if not, then you really need to find a vet who can and will.

wow, that was quite the rant. On that note, I'm going to bed.

Meghane - I requested the tests because he has some odd things about him - eg possible exercise intolerance, an undiagnosed sore on his skin AND has a swollen hock. I know myself that dogs can have atypical symptoms for VF so I'm eliminating the most common things. I can think for myself - many dog owners are rookies and don't know much.

I think that the vet believes that the sore is just a bacterial infection and that's why the Clavamox was prescribed. But she did not say this - probably so she could sell me the ringworm test. I totally believe this even though it's cynical. Maybe I should look for another vet clinic.

I depend a lot on vets but I don't believe or agree with everything they say nor do I do everything they say. They are trying to make money for their clinic and will sell you anything they can that seems remotely related to your problem.

They are trying to make money for their clinic and will sell you anything they can that seems remotely related to your problem.

Wow, I'm feeling very lucky to have my vet right now. Her office visits aren't cheap, but I never feel like she's trying to sell me anything she can. When she recommends a product that they sell, she tells me if I should be able to find it cheaper elsewhere.

It may be disgusting that drug reps give incentives, but that's the business. You have to find a vet you trust not to be swayed by the lobbying.

Meghane - I posted about human overuse and my anger and frustration in people not understanding the danger in doing that.

Also, are you referring to animals that are given antibiotics while being raised then we as humans thereafter eat the antibiotic ridden meat? If so, yes do agree, I pay particular attention to the fresh meat I buy and I do always buy antibiotic free, and scary thing is some free range animals have been given antibiotics which I didn't know until receing. Also, you mention vets over prescribing and the meds someday not being available to prescribe. What's going on with that.

I had no idea since my pets are rarely on an Abx.

Also, I am interested in what is going on the with the small animal vets. Perhaps I am being dense but I don't understand.

As far as the paragraph of the over prescribing and losing clients - your explantion exactly described by former vet. In fact, she had a faily new practice and I knew her family, so I sent many people as I could recommend to the practice and she still ripped me off. Wouldn't draw titers, "just give the vaccination as recommended".

New vet totally different experience. I am so happy I changed and I glad that there are people like you coming in to practice. Hopefully enough truthful, caring people will enter the field.

Luvdogs, I agree that something is odd with your dog, but the little hairs on the back of my neck tingle when vets just cave and do whatever owners ask. Sure, your boxer COULD have VF or ringworm, but is that the most likely cause for his problems? I don't know obviously- haven't seen him etc. But it does seem odd to do tests for fungal diseases and Rx antibiotics. If she thought it was a bacterial infection, then she shouldn't have wasted your money on the VF and ringworm tests IMHO. Just doesn't make sense to me. I think your cynicism is probably on target, given the info you provided. I'd be feeling the same way.

Labmomma, yes I was referring to Abx given to animals as they are being raised. I too buy Abx-free, steroid free, free-range meat products for the same reasons as you. I saw you were very concerned with overuse and misuse of Abx too. I wish everyone felt that way.

From AMDUCA regulations:
(a) The following drugs, families of drugs, and substances are prohibited for extralabel animal and human drug uses in food-producing animals.

(1) Chloramphenicol;
(2) Clenbuterol;
(3) Diethylstilbestrol (DES);
(4) Dimetridazole;
(5) Ipronidazole;
(6) Other nitroimidazoles;
(7) Furazolidone.
(8) Nitrofurazone.
(9) Sulfonamide drugs in lactating dairy cattle (except approved use of sulfadimethoxine, sulfabromomethazine, and sulfaethoxypyridazine);
(10) Fluoroquinolones; and
(11) Glycopeptides.

These are the outright bans; other drugs cannot be used except in very specific circumstances and only exactly according to label. If we were restricted to that in small animal medicine, you couldn't Rx any type of cephalexin as there are not any veterinary-approved products. Which makes me think perhaps luvdog's vet prefers veterinary-labeled drugs like Clavamox instead of using drugs off-label like cephalexin. Anyway, if you ever get bored, try reading AMDUCA regulations that govern what food animal vets can do. It's quite the read! It wouldn't surprise me that if the not-so-distant future, small animal vets were subjected to similar rules.

I'm glad you found your new vet too. Those money-grabbers sure do make things difficult for the honest ones!