gnlinaz

NUVOH2O water conditioning system

gnlinaz
9 years ago

Does anyone have reviews about the Nuvo water conditioning system? My husband and I have been researching soft water systems and came across the NUVOH2O system. We like the idea of not having to seperate our outside and inside pipes. With the NUVO system you can run it through the pool. Any thoughts on this system?

Thanks.

Comments (97)

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    BobinWV,

    I have stated many times on this forum and I'll repeat it now for your benefit... I am not affiliated with any water treatment equipment manufacturer, distributor, or retailer. Sometimes a little forum searching is worth the time instead of jumping to an unsupported conclusion.

    "I'm going to go with a traditional ion-exchange softener for all the reasons stated here. Good scientists and engineers adhere to the motto: "In God We Trust, all others bring data", and I agree with that" ... and I agree with that also and add that competent techs want data too but to those in the field the how questions are more important than the why questions so I apologize if my ability to explain my positions falls short of your expectations. All your other comments notwithstanding, you arrived at the same data supported position where I have been for decades.

    There are many awaiting alternative softening technologies to prove themselves scientifically and we'll both welcome the data so we can evaluate those alternatives based on our needs.

  • BobinWV
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I appreciate your clarification, and I guess I used the wrong term practically speaking when I said glycerine. I actually liked the link provided by Marv_2010, and I didn't think it fair for me to paraphrase it:
    http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jul2001/996090332.Ch.r.html

    With that being said, I think you missed some of my points. I used the "slimy/slick feeling on skin" issue as an example of misinformation being propogated here. The same can be said for those saying it's the salt (jump in the ocean at the beach and tell me how slimy your skin feels afterwards - assuming you're not in North Jersey).

    As for my googling example, I didn't just go to the Google home page and see how many hits I got and call it a day. I read (at lest the abstracts, more if available online) many articles from sources considerably more reliable than the flat earth society (Dow Chemical, Dupont, and the American Chemical Society, to name but a few). I did not, however, spend the night in a Holiday Inn Express, so I don't claim to have become a full fledged biochemist in one weekend. If you equate those sites I mentioned with the ones you offered, then I don't know what to say.

    However, without repeating my entire post, it all boils down to three issues, and I'd appreciate your opinion on them.
    1. Is the chemistry sound (i.e. does chelation work)?
    2. End-to-end, can properly chelated water provide the same benefits as water treated by traditional ion-exchange treatment systems?
    3. If 1 and 2 are "yes", does THIS system adequately chelate the calcium and magnesium in the water to bring about those effects over the stated life of the filter/medium (6 months).

    I can see you're maybe as wrapped-around-the-axle as justalurker is on the use of the word "softening" in their advertising as a "deception." I cannot disagree with you more on this point, but ultimately we are arguing semantics. I promise you that I can provide you as many good legitimage sources (not flat earth crap) that include chelation as a "softening process" as you can find that do not. But that would be a pointless exercise.

    Is this company dodgy? I think I stated a LOT of reasons in my earlier post why I'm afraid that they might be. But again, the marketing department and engineering department tend to be in different parts of the building, so I'm at least willing to give them the opportunity to make the case that their product works, and back it up with independent test results. If it does, that would be VERY exciting news for all of us except the ones with a vested interest in salt based systems. If not, then I guess I'll continue to slowly turn my septic drain field into a pillar of salt. Peace.

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  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    BobibWV,

    We are in agreement that the marketing and engineering departments of MANY companies are located in parallel universes let alone different buildings.

    I was with you there until the "pillar of salt" remark. A correctly sized softener set up to operate efficiently should have no such effect on your septic tank or leach field and there are numerous studies supporting that statement.

    If you care to post results of a comprehensive water test and some details about your environment and water usage I'll be happy to suggest correct softener sizing then you'll at least be operating your softener at peak efficiency until a viable alternative shows up.


    .

  • BobinWV
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    justalurker: Agreed, I'll see what I can come up with. I have an old timer based softener. I go through about 4-6 bags of salt a year, and I can only assume that the salt is ending up in either my septic tank or my drain field.

    Let's say I average 200 pounds of salt a year; over the last 15 years I've run 3000 pounds of salt through my system. I admit that I haven't had time to google this yet (just kidding, just kidding), so I am possibly leaving something important out of my equation. I will actually feel much better in this case to be wrong.

  • asolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    No semantics for me....and I suspect for very few in the actual retail marketplace. For Joe and Sally Average -- and for me -- what I've seen a little bit of and read for years on this forum is......

    1) Buyers of ion-exchange softeners buy the equipment and it works. They can feel it and measure it more-or-less immediately upon installation. They can also monitor it continuously or occasionally to be sure it stays working. They can see it in decreased or eliminated scaling and faucet deposits, vastly reduced detergent requirements, and longer appliance life. Mostly, they don't care how it works. They just observe that it does.

    2) Buyers of "alternative" systems wait and wonder.....and often post here asking what to think and what to look for to discern whether its working or not. Observationally, they continue to be uncertain even if hopeful.

    I can't argue chemistry with chemists or science with scientists. I just need something I can afford that works and doesn't give me grief. I am hopeful that working alternative systems will become available. Maybe they are and I just don't know it. However, like most I think, I'm just another retail customer and I can't afford to be anyone's beta-tester. I need results I can observe and depend on. For decades -- and right now -- that's ion exchange. Somebody else will have to experiment with the others and let me know when they've got it figured out.

  • BobinWV
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    asolo - I don't disagree with you. But, you said "...Somebody else will have to experiment with the others and let me know when they've got it figured out."

    Isn't that what the original poster asked?

    For clarification, I have an "old, timer-based" softener, as opposed to an "old-timer based" softener. I don't want anyone to think I have an elderly gent sequesterd in my basement.

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    BobibWV,

    Based on the water conditions, # of people, # of bathrooms, and SFR of the plumbing we can compute the most efficient size softener for your circumstances.

    Curiously though... you mentioned that your ion exchange softener was dying... not that it hadn't given yeoman's service or that your leach field had failed due to salt overdose or that your septic tank had corroded through like an east coast street from highway salt so I gather that ion exchange softening has been berry, berry, good to you so far.

    How about replacing that dying, inefficient, timer based, softener with a correctly sized demand initiated softener and in a decade or two when that softener will require re-bedding perhaps an alternative technology that will have proven itself will be available?

    BTW, septic experts I've talked to all offer the same remark... "all septic fields begin to die the day they are put into service and sooner or later will need to be rested". My septic field was installed in 1987 and was just diverted to an alternate field to allow it a couple years to recover.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Bob - I was addressing the soap issue alone, as i believe I stated, and did not address the definition of softening. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth - it aggravates me, as I am sure it would were I doing the same to you. Neither was I equating the websites, merely making a point via exaggeration, interjecting a little humor. Tone is difficult when writing.

    Defining softening as the removal of calcium and magnesium is partially a semantics argument, but there are some practical differences between removal and sequestration that make it an important distinction. It is true that removing calcium and magnesium is softening. It is also true that chemicals the bind calcium and magnesium are called softeners. Of those, there are two types - precipitating and chelating. The precipitating types cause calcium and magnesium to drop out of solution where chelating causes them to stay in solution. Both give some benefit as if the water were soft. Precipitations can redissolve and chelations may be broken by changes such as a change in pH or temperature, at which point you have hard water again. That is why we always point out the difference.

    Their use of the word softening to describe their system is dodgy, but not entirely false. The deception I was actually referring to was their insistence that a traditional softener wastes 4 gallons for every gallon it produces. That statement, which they repeat loudly and often, cannot be excused by saying it's simply marketing. It's false, blatantly so.

    As to your questions:

    1) Yes, chelation works (which is why I previously state I could give them some benefit of the doubt). You need to understand, however, that there are strong chelating agents and week ones. Citric acid is the latter. The reason it was chosen for this system, I assume, is that is safe for human consumption. Most strong chelating agents are not.

    2) This question is a little more complex. For the sake of argument, let us assume by properly chelated you mean that all of the hardness ions are sequestered. Then, yes, properly chelated water would likely provide the same benefit as softening, with one exception. There would still be build-up wherever water was allowed to dry. It's possible the buildup would be less tenacious than hardness scale, but I don't know if this would make an appreciable difference in cleaning effort or not.

    3) Under ideal conditions, it could possibly be an improvement over hard water with no treatment. However, those ideal conditions would include tightly controlled pH (to ensure the correct form of chelated calcium is formed), temperature, contact time, and the ratio of citrate to calcium + magnesium + iron + manganese + a few other metals. As this system is incapable of doing any of those things, the short answer is NO.

  • BobinWV
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    As I mentioned earlier, I emailed them and asked about indedpendent test results. Here's what I've received:

    Hi Bob, thanks for inquiring about our salt free water softening system. I'm not sure which lab results you are referring to, but I will check with my manager about it and get back to you. (followed by another paragraph of the standard marketing sales pitch)

    alice - I think we are in violent agreement (or non-violent, as the case may be). Here is an article (half paper, half marketing document) from Dow that talks about the effects of pH and temperature on weak chelating agents like citric acid in comparison to their own (not for human consumption, though). It's a quick read with graphs and pictures, and may help others who might be interested:

    http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_003d/0901b8038003db82.pdf?filepath=versene/pdfs/noreg/113-01259.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

    I'm just not as quick as you are to arrive at the definitive "NO" answer on #3 - at least not until I've seen some data. If they don't provide the data, then I'm right there with you.

    justalurker - You're right, all things considered, my old unit has given me good reliable service. Now that I think about it, other than our refrigerator, it is the only original appliance left in the house since it was built nearly 16 years ago. We've had four service calls on it, all for the same thing. Wish I could say the same for my oven, dishwasher, water heater, etc. When it's gone, I will post a little picture of it on the refrigerator and hope I remember to set it aside when that, too, is wheeled-away. ;-) Seriously, though, I will get you some numbers. I'm guessing the SFR will be capped at 7gpm, since that is what our well is rated (now I'm REALLY out of my element), but I don't know how that is controlled/limited by our installed equipment (well pump limited, maybe?).

  • andy_c
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    A semantic dispute is a disagreement that arises if the parties involved disagree about whether a particular claim is true, not because they disagree on material facts, but rather because they disagree on the definitions of a word (or several words) essential to formulating the claim at issue.
    It is sometimes held that semantic disputes are not genuine disputes at all. But very often they are regarded as perfectly genuine, e.g., in philosophy.
    It is also sometimes held that when a semantic dispute arises, the focus of the debate should switch from the original thesis to the meaning of the terms of which there are different definitions (understandings, concepts, etc.).

    For example soft water doesn't equal softened water. The suffix "en" means 'become' or 'makes into'. Lengthen, darken, sharpen, etc. To soften water is the removal of hardness minerals and I would argue not masking them or sequestering them. In other words, convert hard water into soft water. And that's what a softENer does.

    Naturally soft water doesn't need to be softened. Soap will behave differently in soft water vs softened water. Ivory Soap is an excellent example of a 'pure' soap. Wash your hands in softened water and then in distilled water, you will see a different reaction.

    Semantics may be the very issue here, and not so much in philosophy as in pragmatism. In this case, we see in marketing. When your plumber says: "Whew, man, you have really hard water and it will kill your heater, washer, shower, ad nauseum, you need a softener." And then a customer goes on line and sees these advertised "non-salt water softeners" he is being duped into believing he is following professional advice by buying one.

    If that same ad said: "this calcium-descaling media will not provide the benefits of softened water," would their marketing department be hired for the next fiscal year?

  • bleedinghands
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    This is a frustrating thread but clearly the most helpful around. There are three questions I have.
    1) will it improve our skin, our hands are bleeding. One of my friends installed it in November and loves it. Even with a non-BS web review, I'm worried
    2) Is it safe to drink this so called weak chelating agent. I've have seen nothing to validate it's safe
    3) this ones for justalurker, what do you think the best tradition salt base system is, since I'm probably headed that way

    we need to do something, soon.

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "...what do you think the best tradition salt base system is..."

    IMO the best ion exchange softener is comprised of industry standard components so tech info is readily available for FREE and parts are readily available at modest prices. The best softener must be correctly sized for the water conditions and water usage and plumbing. The best softener will be set up to operate efficiently so the least amount of water and salt is consumed in regeneration. The best softener will be reasonably priced, will be reliable with minimal maintenance, and provide 0 hardness water for a long time.

  • BobinWV
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Here’s an update as promised:
    I’ve been going around and around with the folks at Nuvo trying to get some documented test results for their system. For those of you old enough to remember the Monty Python Cheese Shop skit, it’s gone a lot like that, only not quite as funny. In summary, I keep emailing them asking for test results, and they keep saying “why don’t you try it yourself for 90 days”. They started-out saying that they have in-house test results and are working with another company to do independent testing. I asked for the in-house results, but only got back to the “why don’t you try it for 90 days…” stage. Maybe a small breakthrough here (after about a half dozen email exchanges):
    From John Oberhansly:

    Hey Bob, here is the best that I can do. Our 3rd party independent testing is being done by the Battelle Group out of Columbus Ohio.
    http://www.battelle.org/index.aspx
    The preliminary results are looking very good and the Battelle Group is seeing the results we expected.
    We cannot release any more information at this time. We hope to have the final results by the end of summer. Please let me know if I can be of further service.

    Now, I’ll bet anyone here a six-pack that in September the answer I’ll get will be:
    “…thanks for the interest, Bob. Why don’t you try the system for 90 days…”

    On another note, I have been following Allison Moore Smith’s blog http://pix2brix.com/best-home-water-conditioner/ and noticed that her experience went from super-hopeful to “it’s not working”. Like every other one of these reports I’ve read, the testing and reporting just trailed-off and ended without closure. I posted on that blog noting that fact and asking if the Nuvo people had put the clamps on her and prevented a final summary report. My post asking those questions did not make it onto the site.

  • bleedinghands
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I did get an MSDS out of them that looked fine. Basically the citrus they use is drinking water safe. I also found a posting on amazon that looked good -- worked good for about 6 week and then the cell needed replacement, they guy returned the unit since they wouldn't extend the 90 day return policy http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A1S4E6PFI612LX/ref=cm_pdp_rev_title_3?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#RIFKHTT9OKEBP
    and he has other reviews

  • markesims
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Wow this thread goes back to 2010 and it still appears that no one that actually owns the product has responded!

    justalurker : I don't care what you say -- your bias is obvious (as well as that of some others). Moreover, your comments of "properly sized" installation shows your connection to that market or at least buy in to their marketing hype. Defend yourself if you must, but you can't say anything that will convince me otherwise!!! So don't bother if you really car about the information in this thread.

    This tread has all ready had enough hyperbole and misinformation salted in with the GOOD facts that anyone really wanting the truth will find it difficult to find it! So --

    Here's the FACTS from a person who bought the product based solely on the FACT that the chemistry is sound. I bought the product in December 2011, replacing a salt based system that had failed. I had our local plumber install it professionally. The device worked for about 2 months then I started to notice its effectiveness receeded. I bought one of their scrubber cartridges (at their recommedation) and it did START to remove some of the deposits that had started to reappear. But they said to only use it for 2 weeks; so I replaced the scrubber as directed. Again after about 6 to 8 weeks I began to notice it has started to fail to work again.

    Now where I live we have VERY hard water, but this is far less than the 6 months they claim and that is my problem with them! At about $70 a hit it is more than I want to spend on recurring investment. But, it does work for awhile.

    Other comments about the company. I promptly registered my product on arrival. They have somehow lost my registration. When I ask them to resend my password they say that I don't exists, but I continue to receive marketing emails from them. Go figure!

    BTW-- Don't say that this thing WON"T remove scale or lime deposits -- some if fell on my garage floor (from the scrubber I replaced) and when it got wet it dissolved the cement!

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Now where I live we have VERY hard water"

    What is VERY hard water to you in gpg hardness?

    "I don't care what you say -- your bias is obvious..."

    I admit bias in chemistry, physics, and proven performance in a lab and then in the field rather than bragging by a marketing department..

    So markesims, let's summarize your findings...

    "The device worked for about 2 months then I started to notice its effectiveness receded"

    "Again after about 6 to 8 weeks I began to notice it has started to fail to work again"

    "At about $70 a hit it is more than I want to spend on recurring investment. But, it does work for awhile"

    Glowing endorsements... doesn't sound so, and these statements won't be found on their website or in their literature.

  • markesims
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I knew you wouldn't be able to resist. Just made my point -- you don't care about this information on this thread!

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    If your point is that what you bought didn't do what they said it would then you proved your point.

    Lots of people (me included) and lots of businesses anxiously await alternative water treatment solutions that are either as effective and reliable as ion exchange at the same, or lower, cost to the consumer because viable alternatives are a good thing.

    Whats' not good are alternatives that simply generate money for a greedy few and don't give the consumer what they are told they will get.

  • asolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    "Just made my point -- you don't care about this information on this thread!"

    I think what's not good is posters who apparently don't even know what a rhetorical "point" is.

  • goodmojito
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Let me provide some background information first... I did some basic research in my attempts to improve the quality of the water at my home. Googled and visited more pages than I care to recount looking for alternatives to salt based systems. I asked some people I trust and hold advanced degrees in chemistry about chelation and received very positive responses. Based on this, I decided to try the NuvoH20 home system so the rest of this post is on my unscientific perceptions regarding this product.

    1. Installation was incredibly easy since I already had the connections from an old salt based softener. Even if I had started without this, it still would have been rather easy.
    2. Shortly after installation,we noticed a slight discoloration to the water when we filled the sink - which troubled us quite a bit. Seems this was the result of "stuff" in the pipes (per their tech support). They swore it would go away and about 10-12 days later it wasn't noticeable.
    3. Since I have a fairly extensive home water filtration system and religiously change the carbon filters, I didn't notice any "taste" difference in the water. I also didn't notice any improvements in the quality of the clothes washed in the new system. But to be honest, most of our laundry goes to the dry cleaners and only towels, bedding and such get washed.
    4. Tested the water with my pool chemistry kit and the water hardness was pretty much the same - maybe a slight improvement of 1-2g but no more. Our glass shower still spotted though definitely not as much as before and which never happened with our old salt system.
    5. Cartridge needed replacement after only 3 months - definitely not what was advertised. $60 + S&H. So, at this rate, the cost makes salt look pretty appealing.
    6. Orchids love the water, this just begs for a controlled experiment.
    7. Cartridge replacement is problematic. Tighten the retaining ring too much and it leaks (you also have to replace the "o" ring, not tight enough and it leaks. Kick it and it breaks.

    I'm way past the 90 days return period, don't have much positive to say about this system other than paying for it kept some people employed... and ok, so I'm weird but I like the slick feeling on my skin from the shower, not wiping down the damn glass and finally not having to deal with cheap plastic so this system is a goner. Back to research...

  • CATECH
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    OK please dont blast me for this. I have NUvo H2O and I have been promoting the product on my site for the last 3 years.

    I went through this thread and its %50 headache with all the arguing. I just moved to a new house and was just doing some new research before I bought another Nuvo system.

    Anyways here is my site with installation pictures http://www.nuvoh2oreview.com/installation-pictures/

    Here is my 2 cents.
    That installation was done right, It comes with some compression type set up that I just would not trust. For my set up my cousin helped me, but to be honest after we changed the pressure regulator etc.. this would have prob been a 500-800$ job depending on the plumber.

    I got in the very early days of the products and there was actually different settings on the cartridge. I to got the blue tint to my water and they said to set it lower. Now the cartridges have one setting and I have not had any issues.

    Did it work? Yes it did work, but.... you need to really keep an eye on it and keep up with cartridge changes. There were so many times I went months withouth changing it and that is not good. There is a bypass on the filter, plus we added a try bypass in the plumbing as well. So if you water the lawn or wash the car then you can use the bypass.. well prob not for the car. Anyways the fact is that I never once used the bypass lol so being lazy again and watering the lawn I prob wasted a lot of the citracharge in the cartridge. Can you see where I am going with this?

    In order for it to be effective you really need to keep a schedule and have a spare cartidge or two on hand for replcacement. They also have a scrubber cartridge which you are supposed to run first to clean out the pipes etc...

    They also have a citraclear product that you toss in the dishwasher that works really well.

    So like I said it does work, it might cost you more to install then they say and you need to really keep on top of it so you can keep the system going and not skip a month or two like I did.

    Hope this helps. Glad to answer any other questions.
    Oh and support was always helpful via email or the phone.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Nice Shill site, Chris. I particularly love giving the site a name with "review" in it to try to make it look like an actual review site rather than a sales tool.

    You "have been promoting" it on your site for three years? Translation: You have been selling thee product for three years. Way to go! Since you're clearly too stupid to read this site's TOU, I'm sure you're a stellar business person. I can't wait to jump in line to purchase whatever you are selling. I'm certain no one else will see through your clever little ploy.

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Here, allow me help you advertise:

    nuvoh2oreview.com is a scam company, run by an unscrupulous business person who steals advertising space from other websites, so likely won't hesitate to steal from customers as well.

  • CATECH
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Jeez guys I told you it was a site to sell the product. I created it after I got the product since I am in the business of internet marketing. I only posted it here because it seems %50 of this post is about arguing and name calling as your 2 posts prove. I have the system, i use the system I was offering %100 true facts about it which seem to be non existent here.

    Its not a ploy, all the pics and installation are all mine in my home in Denville New Jersey where we have super hard water. Go ahead look online you wont see any other reviews like that. So what if I want to make a few $$ off of it. lol Like I said I only signed up today and posted that here because there are real people looking for real information on this product and it seems there is just not that much info out there on it. Jeesh!!

    Good day!

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    You are free to make all the money you want from any product you wish to sell. You are not, however, free to advertise on this site without paying for the privilege. My indictment above was of you, not your product. You, an admitted thief, are unworthy of my business.

  • CATECH
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Alice I really want to sit here all day and chat with you cause it might be fun, but like I said who cares if I drop a link to a site with factual information. Isn't that what people are looking for? If I dropped you a link to home depot to find a specific part would you not appreciate it? The fact is I took my time to build a website and document my whole experience with NuvoH2O so others could benefit from it. I would gladly pay for advertising, but I really posted here to give people some REAL information about the product since there seems to be a lack there of. Anyways I appreciate your feedback etc.... and don't care if you buy the product I just know how frustrating it can be to look for an honest review of something and just find garbage.

  • asolo
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    @catech...

    Your personal experience might have been interesting had you not queered it with the commercial reference thereby compromising every other opinion you expressed. As-posted, I don't know who you are or what you're up to.

    Personally, I have no idea if your device is viable or not. All I know is your marketing skills are so incredibly deficient and, seemingly, self-serving it's difficult to accept much of anything you might say.

  • JJames3000
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I just want to say that this thread was a little more acrimonious than needed. This goes to both sides or points of this discussion.

  • AFX427
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I'm a new member who just joined to say thank you after reading this enlightening discussion on the NUVOH2O, which I recently saw an infomercial on.

    I've had a salt system for 18+ years. Over time the water's hardness has increased to the point I have 500gals after regeneration, using about 40lbs of salt a week and I know for a fact my system isn't discharging "up to" 2,000gals during regeneration (just love that widely used advertising claim, "up to"). I had the media/bed changer after 15 years. I don't discharge to the septic as I have nothing against the bacteria trying to do it's job and have sandy soil beneath to handle any enviromental concerns.

    Gleaning through some of the emotional banter, and semantics, that is prelavent on many sites, I've decided to forego a changeover. I see an even higher cost with this sytem as I also have high Iron content (IIRC, 8ppb) and the current softener handles that quite well, unless someone uses water during regeneration. Lurker and BobWVA were very helpful, as were others in making my decision. I'll wait for a future, better 'mousetrap' backed by independent data before thinking of switching. Salt is readily available, I live over the largest salt deposit in NA, maybe the world, lol. Thanks Again, great read.

  • science_mom
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I plan to purchase a Nuvo H2O water softener for several reasons. I am on a low sodium diet for medical reasons and cannot have more sodium ions added to my diet via my drinking water. A traditional water softener that uses ion exchange does add sodium ions to your water as the sodium ions go into the water so that the calcium ions will come out of your water and therefore be unable to produce lime or CaCO3 (calcium carbonate) buildup. To avoid adding sodium ions, I am aware that you may use potassium chloride which adds potassium ions to the softened water to remove the calcium. It is more expensive that sodium chloride.

    Since my house has never had a water softener, I will save money with the Nuvo H20 as I will not have to plumb a discharge line into my attic, through my closet and then down into the washing machine discharge. Nor will I have to have two new outdoor lines and faucets dug and plumbed so that I can have unsoftened water for my lawn and plants. The sodium ions in the softened water will kill plants particularly here in San Antonio, TX where we have scorching temperatures, low rainfall and restrictions for watering to once a week. I hope to reduce the installation bill for the loop from $2-3000 to $500 using the Nuvo. I hope the water line is right outside the garage like I think it is.

    In addition, I also am very happy that the Nuvo H20 system does not release sodium chloride discharge into our city's sewage system, does use less water as there is not a recharge process in the Nuvo H20 system and does not use electricity. The filters will be much easier to change than adding bags of salt pellets. I strongly support any changes in existing systems that will have a positive effect on the environment which I feel Nuvo H2O does.

    As an OLD high school chemistry teacher, I do see some incorrect science information mainly from those with the most emotional responses, passionately resisting any change. Why does a discussion about water softeners result in name calling and put downs? Have some respect for others and let them have an opinion even if it is different than you own. If you are unwilling to embrace change, do not put down those that are. The chelating information about the citric acid is correct. The calcium ions are not allowed to bind and precipitate out as CaCO3 due to the chelating process. I keep my calcium ions in my water and not add sodium ions.

    So I will try a Nuvo and let you know in a few weeks how it goes.

  • andy_c
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    science_mom, If you are that concerned with sodium ions, then I am sure you must also be concerned with scores and scores of other contaminants in much larger quantities and size than sodium ions, right? Simple solution, get an RO that removes those ions as well as perhaps hundreds of other bugs in your water with an RO.

    I mean why would one being so concerned with one's water ignore such a well-founded, reasonably priced, and remarkably usable technology?

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    @science mom,

    I'm on a low sodium diet also, have a water softener treating 35 gpg hard water, and I'm still alive after 16 years on a softener and my blood pressure is right on the money.

    My wife waters her house plants with softened water and they thrive.

    Concerned about sodium ions added to your softener water by an ion exchange softener cause you're on a low sodium diet and won't spend the money for KCl (which would mitigate your concerns)?

    Well...

    The formula for added sodium is 7.85 mg/l (about a quart) of softened water per grain per gallon of compensated hardness.

    EXAMPLE 20 gpg * 7.85 = 157 mg of sodium added per liter of softened water, not salt.

    How does this sodium content of softened water compare to sodium found in common foods?

    The table demonstrates the usual range of sodium in common foods.

    Food Amount Mg of Sodium

    Ketchup 1 tablespoon 204
    Milk 2 Cups 226
    Frozen Peas 1/2 Cup 295
    Bread 2 Slices 322
    Corn Flakes 1 oz. 260
    Parmesan Cheese 1 oz. 528
    Tomato Juice 4 oz. 504
    Tomato Soup 1 Cup 932
    Chili 1 Cup 1194
    Beef Broth 1 Cup 1152

    Regardless of whether the NUVOH2O works or not, or you decide on an ion exchange softener, you'd better also stop eating all the named foods above and pretty much any processed food cause they are laden with salt and you said you don't want any sodium added to your diet.

    Sodium... it's not just in our drinking water.

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    And agree with Andy... on RO.

    Ion exchange softener for hardness and an under sink RO in the kitchen for drinking, cooking, and ice making.

  • Poulson
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I've read this entire thread and even tho I think the bickering is completely unjustified (just my opinion!) I believe there is more actual knowledge in this forum than anywhere else I've looked. So here is my question...I don't necessarily care about "soft" water or if it will make my skin feel "slimy" or whatever BUT, we have horrible problems with lime scale build up on our pipes, faucets, and appliances. We even have little rocks that come out of our tub faucet! What is the best system for reducing future and existing lime scale build up? Again, I'm not concerned about soft or conditioned or ion exchange or salt or how they work. I just want to know which one DOES WORK on our particular problem. Thanks for your suggestions!

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Poulson,

    First thing... start a new thread for your question so it gets the attention you desire rather than resurrecting an old thread.

    Second... are the deposits lime or calcium?

    Third... in order to speak intelligently regarding treating your water we will need the results of a comprehensive water test by an independent lab. Then we'll know what in the water needs to be treated and can then make recommendations.

    Fourth... are you on a well or water system? How many people in the home? How many bathrooms? Any water hogging appliances like a hot tub or Jacuzzi?

  • Poulson
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Thanks justalurker for your reply! Will do as you recommend...but first can you tell me how to go about getting a water test? Thanks so much!

  • justalurker
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Start a new thread for your question so it gets the attention you desire.

  • ribs1
    8 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I am wondering if we could all agree to stop responding to any of these threads about these devices. Anyone who believes in these things falls into one of these categories.
    1. Homeowner who probably didn't have very hard water to begin with.
    2. Ignorant homeowner.
    3. Snake oil salesman who enjoys all the free publicity he can get good or bad.

    We should all just stop feeding these trolls.

  • BobinWV
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    ...Aaaaannd Science Mom joins the legions of others who intend to buy the product, promise an unbiased real-world view, and then fall off the face of the earth. It's a shame, really, because I was honestly looking forward to hearing about her experience.

    Great point made about using potassium instead of sodium. Probably cheaper than buying a new citracel filter every month. But anyone know what's up with the price of potassium salt these days? Seems like it's more than doubled in cost.

  • Jocif
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    The infomercial brought me to research. It has been several years since I finished my bio/chem degree and MS in chemistry. "If you don't use it, you lose it" is a reality. (I never found a position suitable to my financial and transportation needs)

    This thread has been very entertaining. Everything after this is going to support the use of salts for reduction of CaCO3 in water supplies. It is also going to support that in a proper setup there should be low amounts of sodium left in the drinking water, which are bad for severely restricted sodium diets. You will either have levels of higher CaCO3 or sodium. KCl won't have this problem.

    I looked over some past research. None of my targeted research was for anything other than CaCO3 and the efficiency of a few different filters. The rest is speculation.

    Using a calgamite indicator and EDTA on CaCO3 deposits in water sources. We looked at 10 samples of the areas city water supply, where the mean was 920ppm or 53.68gpg, which is rather hard. This is going to drag on for a while, even though I am paraphrasing my notes, and might get boring, but it will eventually get to an endpoint. In our first test we ran the water samples through a brand carbon base filter which reduced the CaCO3 by an average of 45.3%, which is much less than the 86% claimed by the manufacturer. Second test used a low flow paper filter, average of 39.7% reduction. Third & forth test used both. carbon -> paper then paper -> carbon for a total reduction of an average of 59.7% and 67% respectively.

    Using several other instruments we looked at everything else in the water too. This was to make sure we did not have high concentrations of other dissolved molecules that might affect negatively our work. Here is the next part that isn't so boring...

    Next we used all, now 40 (separated into 4 samples of each and diluted to different concentrations...160 samples in all to work with) samples in back titrations, HCl and NaOH with phenolphthalein were used, to find out exactly how much NaCl was produced.

    The speculation part.
    After all of this we know very approximately how much NaCl is needed to reduce the CaCO3 to negligible amounts in each of my samples, adjusted per dilution. The charge on the sodium is not great enough to do this in a perfect 2:1 (2NaCl is needed per 1CaCO3) so there will be sodium left over.

    So, properly setup, a salt softener is a very efficient way to reduce CaCO3 in water. Physical filters help and so do chemical filters. Without testing the NuvoH2O myself I feel that I can safely assume that, since the filter is not permanent, its efficacy will depreciate whereas a well maintained salt softener will not.

    Yes there will always be sodium/potassium in the water past a softener. Yes if you are concerned about sodium in your drinking water you should get a point-of-use RO type filter, use KCl, or you can bypass your softener before you get to your drinking water. Yes the sodium can be bad for plants, but you should bypass your softener to outside faucets anyway.

    Feel free to berate me as you will. I really don't care. It is pretty early/late and I need to get back to the infomercials.

    If you want my full labwork and tables/graphs I can provide them.

  • dragonladytoo
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    After seeing the ad on tv for nuvoh20, started research and found this site - read all the posts and have questions, but first, please know:
    1) I have a well which produces horrible hard, visible grains of something which is filtered out by a well filter which has to be changed several times a year. The water produced has passed, repeatedly, the Dept of Health's water testing.
    2) I have a septic tank which has to be pumped out once a year.
    3) I have a Culligan Model 474 which is two years old - it replaced one that was 8 years old.
    4) The Culligan has to be reprogrammed every time the electricity "blinks" - there is no battery back up for the programming even though this thing cost over 1200 dollars and the electricity "blinks" quite often out here. Reprogramming requires standing in a cold pump house, holding a flash light, the instructions and repeatedly pushing one button to get to the right place, then the second button to "select" then back to the first - several times until the thing is programmed. If, for some reason,I am unable to do this, I must pay an 85 dollar service call for someone to come out and I must wait all day for him to show up.
    5) I am old and frail and salt comes in only 40 pound bags. I can still lift them, with large effort but foresee the day when I won't be able to. Takes, on average - two of these bags a month - which now cost 6.98/bag at Walmart.
    6) I have a new, high end Kitchenaide diswasher with a stainless steel interior - within two weeks the "stainless" was covered with an ugly, streaky film that no amount of scrubbing would remove.
    7) I read that running the dishwasher, empty, after putting a package of lemon koolaide in the soap dispenser would solve my problem.
    IT DID. The stainless interior looks nice again but, of course, will have to do it every couple of weeks.
    QUESTIONs:
    1) if the Nuvoh20 system is bad science and does not work - why did the package of Kooaide work to remove the film in the dishwasher?
    2) is there any other option for conditioning water (won't say "softening") in such a way that I don't get this white, filmy, yucky buildup on every surface touched by water in my house that will not require me to have to live with Culligan monster and heavy bags of salt?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    It's not that citric acid won't remove hardness and act as a chelant. The problems are:

    1. This particular unit provides absolutely zero control over how much citric acid enters your water.
    2. Additionally, the technology works as intended over only a quite narrow range of water conditions and the unit has no way to respond to different waters in a different way.
    3. Cost is very high compared to softening.
    4. The company does not appear to understand what softening actually is. Neither do they appear to understand the proper application and limitations of their own technology - always a red flag.

    Do any of your local water treatment companies offer either a salt delivery service (including adding it to your brine tank), or a softener swap-out service? Either of these would cost money, but you would not be the one lugging bags of salt.

  • sszretter
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    This ripoff report seems to have some good information. There are some negative reports (the first one of course), but you can see some official company responses:

    Here is a link that might be useful: rip report link

  • olafmar
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Beware Nuvo! I recently bought a used filter which needed a part. I contacted Nuvo, which refused to sell the part. They said they don't sell parts to third party purchasers, because the item could be stolen, or not completely paid for, or whatever. So, Nuvo filters have zero resale value. What a company!

  • andreaazzarelli
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I cant imagine why anybody would want to buy a used Nuvo filter since they last only 4 to 6 months. I also found mixed reviews about Nuvo, look here http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130408182758AApHy5W

    Anyway, we found that the electronic no salt technology works better than Nuvo and there’s no filters to replace every 4 to 6 months like with Nuvo. After looking at several brands I had to decide between Easywater and Scalewatcher, both seemed reputable and trustworthy companies. Finally we bought the Scalewatcher 3 star from Aqua Genesis because it had lower price ($499) and longer warranties. It's been over a year now and we have no complaints about our ScaleWatcher: the scale in my showerhead went away and never came back, our water heater heats up faster, we had to lower the temp setting or we get burned, and we love the way our hair and skin feels after the shower. This is where I bought mine aquagenesisusa.com and i can honestly recommend them.

  • quiet_john
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I thought I might be able to get some good information from this discussion, but the arrogant BS just gave me a headache.

  • quiet_john
    7 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    I thought I might be able to get some good information from this discussion, but the arrogant BS just gave me a headache.

  • Todd French
    4 years ago

    Quick comment, as I'm also researching Nuvo, and had a giggle at the banter in this thread, since it seems the same across ALL internet forums (I run one with 20,000 registered members - same sort of crap happens time after time on there, too). Just making sure that those requesting the report from Battelle did see it posted - http://nuvoh2o.com/media/pdfs/nuvoH2O-Efficacy-and-Consumer-Benefits-Study-Summary.pdf - granted, it's posted on Nuvo's website, but one would think Battelle would come down on them like a ton of bricks, legally, if the results they published as Battelle's were untrue.

  • ap53
    2 years ago

    Arnold is my name, and im a fixer upper kind of guy, but regarding the water softener, I live in south texas, rio grand valley and our water is hard. I watch this old house and this weekend they were showing a two filter water softener. first filter for solids and smell. second filter I believe he said it had a citric acid base fine powder. it supposedly would bind the hard molecules and pass them thru and would also within a month or so it would also clean the calcium build up you see on faucets, shower heads etc. it sounded pretty good. and I was fixing to get a salt regeneration softener from lowes but thought I would check this out first. ive always had a water softener 40 plus years in my old home. so lt sounds like some of you know your stuff so what do you all think.

  • Vith
    2 years ago
    last modified: 2 years ago

    Citric acid in water does descale. I have done it to my water heater elements to descale them. (you can buy food grade citric acid online) That being said, I am hoping it doesn't increase the acidity of the water too much because that can be hard on the plumbing, copper specifically. Although salt is not nice to copper either.

    I also happened to see that piece on TOH. Found it interesting.