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Trying to finish a pool without PB

16 years ago

I'm new to the forum, but I have been reading as much as I can. I need help selecting the right equipment for my pool. To make a long story short, my PB went to jail. The only positive thing I can take from the situation is that I'm learning a lot more about my pool and also probably getting more of what I really want.

Here's what I have: 22'x40' vinyl rectangular inground with 3.5' shallow/8.5' deep end. All 1.5" plumbing with 2 skimmers (tied together), 2 returns (tied together), 2 returns on the steps (tied together), 2 main drains (tied together), and 1 port/return for pool cleaner (1.5" by itself). We don't know what our pool season is (live in eastern Tennessee) so we want to give ourselves heating options to potentially extend our season (solar and natural gas), but until we know what it is like we want to just leave the option open.

The only piece of equipment I have purchased is a Hayward S310T2 30" sand filter. I couldn't find a reason to spend an extra $150 on a Pentair Triton TR-100. I probably could have gotten away with the next size down, but I went with the +1 size rule of thumb. I was a little undecided about the side versus top mount valve, but the top was cheaper, looks easier to plumb, and the only caveat (I understand) is that I need to put unions in my plumbing to be able to replace the sand. I'm open to positive reinforcement or constructive criticism on this choice.

1) Pump: Originally, he spec'ed a 1.5HP Hayward Super Pump. I was almost set on a Pentair WhisperFlo 1.5HP 2-speed pump, but then I started reading about the IntelliFlo VF which looks really cool. Most people that have posted about this pump have a much more complicated pool than mine (negative edge, water features, spas, etc.). There is no doubt in my mind that it is a superior pump, however, I want to know in my application is it worth the extra $500 or so over a two-speed? The specific concerns I have with a 2-speed really have to do with a) meeting the flowrate for my chlorinator, b) being able to pump onto my roof for solar heating (probably 100' plus 2 stories plus through the panels), and c) through optional gas heater. I really like the "set the flowrate and forget" of the VF, but can I do what I want with a 2-speed and how hard will it be to attach to my automation to make it do what I want? BTW, I haven't seen/read/heard anything about decent Hayward 2-speed or variable speed pumps.

2) Automation: EasyTouch or AquaLogic? I want to control 2 independent landscape light circuits, my pool light, my pump, my solar, and a circuit for power (no need for control, just a breaker). I'm leaning toward the 8-version of both, just to have extra space. I plan to use the built-in subpanel (I'm bringing 100A service to my equipment pad). I've read really great things about the AutoPod remote and not so complementary things about the Pentair remote. To me, this decision comes down to if I can easily deal with my Pentair pump using the AquaLogic. If so, I'm leaning toward the Hayward (cost, AquaPod) unless there is some major disadvantage I am not seeing.

3) Solar: I've read that Heliocol is less efficient, more expensive, but easier maintenance than Fafco (needs tightening and more holes in the roof). I'm mainly concerned about reliability and cost. The only side of the roof we can use is mostly due West. My wife really loves this idea. We have 2" pipe stubbed to the equipment pad to add this later.

4) Autofill: I want an autofill, but I haven't read many rave reviews or slams of a particular brand. Are they all basically the same in terms of functionality and reliability and I should just choose by cost, or are there really good ones and ones I should avoid?

5) Salt chlorinator: I was leaning toward the Hayward AquaRite (because of cost and leaning toward Hayward automation), but I've heard that the Pentair Intellichlor IC 40 is also good. Unless I hear advice otherwise, I will probably go with the same brand as the automation.

6) Natural gas heater: For a pool this size, I have been researching 300K to 400K BTU heaters. Where do people normally put their meter for this? Next to their pool equipment? If I put this meter next to my other meter, the run would be about 150' which means I would need at least 1.25" piping, if not 1.5" or 2". Anyone have a brand recommendation?

7) Pool light: PB installed some boring Hayward plain 500W light. I want to replace it with someone's LED lights. Any recommendations? Will I need a new housing? Is this going to be difficult to install given the pool is filled with water?

8) Vacuum: PB was going to buy a Polaris 380 which sounds like it is a pretty good cleaner. What about a Polaris 280 (cheaper) or a Polaris 360 (doesn't need a booster pump)? A friend recommended the Kreepy Krauly. Thoughts?

Once the pump and automation are settled, I think much of the other stuff falls into place. Thanks in advance for all your valuable advice.

Comments (3)

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Wow, that's a bummer that he went to jail. I hope that it wasn't because he was a stealing/pool related.

    If the deck hasn't been poured, dig up the 1.5" stuff and replace it with 2" pipe. Split the skimmers into individual lines and valve them and the drain at the equipment pad. The bottom drain line would benefit some but not much because once it goes down in the hopper, it would require a LOT of work to change. Using 2" lines will result in lower friction losses. The water in the pipe moves a lot slower. You will also benefit from the added versatility and equipment choices.

    Now for the questions you asked:

    Since you already have started with Hayward's, stick with it. You will benefit from the extended warranty. Mixing and matching on a new pool is not in your best interest.

    1) Which pump? If your code requires an SVRS, The Hayward Variable Speed TriStar and Stratum SVRS will give you the energy savings, versatility, and safety you need. If your equipment pad is near the pool, a 2 speed TriStar may be a reasonable choice but if you add solar and have a two story home, the Variable Speed TriStar is an easier to work with solution because of the versatility.
    The
    2) Aqualogic with AquaPod. The AquaRite cell plugs right in and benefits from the warranty.

    3) WRT Solar,I can't really say much except that you should get it done professionally. Only having a West facing roof line will reduce the efficiency, perhaps more than it's worth.

    4) Auto-Filler: This brings us to how far along your pool's construction is. If it wasn't set up for an auto-fill, it can be a PITA to add. Do you have a picture or set of pictures?

    5) Aqua-Rite, stick with the vendor choice.

    6) The number of BTUs/therms used to heat the pool won't change so bigger is better. 400K for a gas heater. The gas meter is usually the same one the house uses. It may require an upgrade in size. Most gas plumbers tap the service right after the meter and run the supply line to the heater.

    Since your pool doesn't have a spa, a heat pump may be a better option if you power costs are relatively low compared to natural gas. The tend to be lower in BTUs but a lot lower in energy dollars spent. The warranty on these units tend to be longer than the extended warranty of the rest of the equipment. I like the AquaCal units.

    7) Pool light: You said only one light was installed. If you had more than one, I would have said ColorLogics 4.0 because of the niche. Adding/moving niches is another PITA. The size of your pool would need more than one LED light. LED fixtures don't put out as many photons and would leave about 1/3 to 1/2 the pool starved of light. If you have them or want them, colored lens covers are available that snap in/out might be your best alternative. Mixing vendors niche/light fixture combinations is a no-no of UL listing purposes.

    8) Pool Sweep: A Kreepy Krauly is too slow and this pool is too big for it. For a suction side cleaner, many have had great success with The Pool Cleaner. No booster needed. If the pool was plumbed with a pool sweep line, the Polaris 280 or Pentair Legend have proven themselves for years. The Hayward Phantom is fun to watch but it's added complexity makes them harder to work on.

    Bear in mind, I am not Hayward's biggest fan. The fact that you already have the filter and light pretty much settled it.

    Best of luck!

    Scott

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Scott: Thank you for all the advice. Yes, his jail stint was directly pool-related (fraud). It isn't really any consolation, but by reading the forum it looks like I'm certainly not the only one. Enough about that. I've made some decisions, but still have some follow-up questions:

    First, about the pipe, I have been reading all sorts of posts about upsizing the pipe and I just can't wrap my mind around it. It seems to me that the limiting factor for flow would be the 2" pipe at the pump and filter. Once you can match that on the suction and return sides, I don't see the benefit. For example, if I had 3 x 1.5" pipes dedicated for suction (2 skimmers and 1 drain) and 3 1.5" pipes dedicated for returns, I would have a suction rate of 38 GPM x 3 = 114 GPM @ 6 ft/s which then is crammed into a 2" pipe going into my pump which can carry only 63 GPM @ 6 ft/s. So either my 1.5" pipes end up carrying a 63 GPM/3 = 21 GPM @ 6 ft/s or my 2" pipe has to make up the difference and run 114 GPM @ >10 ft/s. My point is that as long as my suction and return sides have a flow rate greater than that of my pump/filter pipe I should not see a benefit of increasing their size. Yes, water will move slower, but the pump has to work hard enough to pump through its own 2" pipe. Does that make sense? I'm also confused as to why people have posted that it is better to use 2" pipes and then put a reducer to 1.5" and that is OK. I don't see this as any different; the pump should have to work just as hard to push a certain GPM through the 2" pipe with a 1.5" reducer as just a straight 1.5" pipe. Right? At any rate, the deck is not poured and I have decided on a compromise of your advice and I am splitting the skimmers and returns into their own 1.5" runs (suction: 1.5" skimmer, 1.5" skimmer, 1.5" drain and 3 x 1.5" returns).

    Second, not many people on this forum (or TFP) seem to be big Hayward fans. Did I really make a mistake by ordering the Hayward S310T2 filter? I just can't believe for something like a sand filter that the Pentair version is $150 better, but if I made a mistake I'd like to know. I can see that mixing vendors is not ideal, but I am concerned mainly about the pump.

    1) Is the Hayward Tristar really a good pump? My equipment pad is roughly 10 ft from the pool and lower than the level of the pool. I guess a lot of people are drooling over (maybe poor choice of words) the Intelliflo, but I don't see anyone doing the same with the Tristar. Of all the pool equipment, I consider this to be the most critical and I don't want to get the wrong one just for a little better warranty.

    2) For the sake of argument, lets say I was sold on the 2-speed Whisperflo or the Intelliflo VF. Can the AquaLogic deal with these pumps or not? For what I wanted to accomplish, is there any benefit the EasyTouch provides over the AquaLogic or are they generally equivalent for simple stuff?

    3) I'm going to call the solar guys. I'm thinking that one way of dealing with it is that even if I don't get the Intelliflo/Tristar VS, I could always go with a 2-speed and add a dedicated booster if I needed it.

    4) I'm leaning toward the Letro, but also looked at the Poolmiser and MP Auto-Lev. Where do people normally plumb their cutoff or is there a place in the autofill to add one?

    5) Same question as 2, is the IntelliChlor "better" than the AquaRite or are they basically the same?

    6) I called the gas company and it is cheaper to have them run a new meter down to the equipment pad. Since they are high pressure, they only have to run a 3/4" pipe to the meter instead of me running a much larger pipe from my current meter. Any favorite brands for heaters?

    7) For the sake of argument (again), exactly how big a PITA is adding a niche? Is it draining the pool PITA? If I desired two ColorLogics (for instance), I assume that people who have rectangular pools put one centered on the deep end and the other centered on the shallow? Is it really going to cost me $500 x 2 or is the daisy-chained one cheaper?

    8) I've got a dedicated return, so right now I'm thinking the Polaris 360 (no booster). Are there any better pressure-side cleaners that don't require a booster?

    Not that I don't appreciate you, Scott, I do, but I was kind of hoping for more opinions. Anyone? Bueller?

  • 16 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Please bear in mind that many of the builders that frequent this board are busy building. They will probably respond but it will take some time.

    Many of the people that post here also post at TFP too, myself included.

    If your pool is already walled, backfilled and decked, the fact that you have a Hayward light niche and sand filter already pretty much makes the continuance of the Hayward equipment for the sake of continuity and integration a simpler path. The additional warranty is a bonus as is the fact that it will likely cost you less. I hope you weren't stung too badly by the PB's actions that lead to his conviction.

    If the pool has not been decked yet, it may be possible to change the niche but I don't know if the the mounting holes will line up. I have never had to replace a niche. Adding an addition hole for another niche with a steel walled pool might require an replacement wall panel. That will likely cost you a liner too. The additional fixture and niche is what costs, daisy chaining the power is usually pretty simple if the deck boxes and near each other.

    Without the decking, increasing the pipe sizes is easier, regardless of the pump. Slower moving water = less friction loss which begets lower energy costs and also improves safety, especially at the suction outlets.

    While the returns will be smaller, especially with eyeball return fittings in place, feeding them with bigger pipes is beneficial. A 2" pipe can move twice the water at a given velocity that a 1.5" pipe can. Slower moving water through the pipes is less energy lost due to friction.

    WRT to whether the Hayward vs Pentair filter is better, I personally feel that the Pentair Tagelus is a better top mounted sand filter. The parts it's made from are stronger. A simple example the is easy to see is the stand pipe takes the filtered water from the bottom of the sand bed to the multiport. The Hayward uses a much thinner plastic pipe that is known to crack, leaking sand back into the pool. The Pentair uses pressure rated Schedule 40 pipe, a MUCH stronger material that doesn't crack. The Pentair Tagelus 100D, equivalent to the S310T 500 lb. filter, has a slightly larger sand bed. Pentair's multiports, in my experience, tend to last longer before needing attention/servicing.

    I am not a big fan of the Tri-Star series but that's what Hayward uses for their variable speed pumps. IMHO, a 3/4 HP Super Pump will give you the flow you need for filtering and backwashing. A simple Intermatic timer set(one for the pool pump, one for the pool sweep booster) is all the automation you need.

    The light is easily turned on and off with a switch. Changing to a LED fixture will not light the pool effectively with only one fixture. There just aren't enough lumens. Adding fixtures is a very expensive proposition. If it's what you want and are prepared to pay for it, great, but taking apart a pool to change a wall panel isn't an easy task. If the deck is poured, you'll lose the deck too.

    The addition of an automation controller and variable speed pump is an expensive eye candy set of additions that for your pool, are unlikely to be a cost effective, problem solving set of additions that would, in the long run, make repairs more likely and more expensive. Yes, the variable speed pump would save you on energy costs, but I don't think to the tune of the additional initial costs.

    If you decide against changing the plumbing size, you must remember to set the speeds/ flows down so they don't exceed 75 gallons per minute or you will starve the pump of water. This will cause a condition called cavitation where the impeller of the pump is spinning but not moving as much water as it was designed to a given speed, wasting energy and generating vibration at the shaft, increasing wear and tear on the pump's bearing, seals, and motor shaft that will reduce it's life expectancy. It will also run louder.

    The communications from Brand A's controller is different than the communications link from Brand B's pump. While Pentair offers the Intellicom II to help with Pentair's variable speed pumps, it cost's the non Easy Touch/Intelli-Touch controllers expensive relays and limits you to 4 speeds. It makes more sense to match the controller and pump manufacturers on a new installation.

    A two speed pump with any of the the major controllers is not a problem. They are all similar in how they control the pump and how the pump's speeds are selected which allows interoperability between the brands. The controller need to be configured with a two speed relay, both physically and in it's programming.

    Since you don't have a south facing roof, I think solar will be of very limited use and would be an expensive disappointment. A heat pump with a solar cover is likely to be more effective and offers a more economical way to heat your pool over a gas fired heater. If the pool is too hot, there are versions that can cool the pool too.

    If the pool has a return port installed already for an auto filler to be connected, the Letro will be fine. It's not something you can just add to an already constructed pool without going through a similar set of efforts needed for adding a niche.

    Better is a subjective term. WRT which salt cell I think is better designed, I prefer the Intellichlor because it's electronics are on the cell, not in with the power supply. This offers two significant advantages. The first is at replacement cell time, you get new electronics. The second is the heat in a power supply cabinet will shorten the life of the control board of the other brands of cells. Pentair also offers a larger available unit that will last longer than the Hayward.

    If you go with a gas fired heater, it should be a 400K BTU unit. How the gas company feeds their meter is their problem. Heaters, funaces, stoves, etc... require a substantially lower pressure but consistent volume after the meter to function correctly.

    In order to supply the volume a pool heater needs at the lower gas pressure a residential device needs, the pipe size needs to increase. The added size adds a steadying buffer for the pressure as other gas appliances turn on and off. The heater's regulator is a 3/4" line. The shorter the length of pipe @ 3/4", the better. A 400K BTU heater needs at least a 1.5" supply run before it's reduced to the 3/4" connection. Long feed lines need 2" pipe to the meter but I don't get the impression you will need that.

    The person you spoke to at the gas company may have misunderstood you needs. I have never heard of a gas company having to run a separate line/meter to a residential home. I'm not saying it isn't possible, only unlikely that the existing line feeding the existing meter couldn't handle the additional load a gas fired heater would generate. That is normally just a change in the meter. Meters serve two purposes, one is to measure how much gas is used and the other is to regulate the pressure to the customer's plumbing.

    Given the information you have shared, I suspect that my replies will give you plenty to think about and will save you some money. Think about the wants/needs/haves ratios and the constraints I have mentioned. If my understandings are correct, you will find my suggestions reasonable.

    Best Of Luck;

    Scott