How big is this kitchen? We're putting in a 36" Thermador in our build. But it's a step up from the 30" Maytag we had before. Our home is almost 3200 sf living/3925 sf total. I think that's probably slightly bigger than average but not as big as your house sounds. The new batches of Thermadors are said to be really great compared to what they were so I'm looking forward to it. For our family of four, a 36" cooktop and that oven size is plenty. But only you can decide the perfect balance of budget and functionality for your home. It's difficult, I know!

I can tell you that I personally do not even cook but I would not buy a home w/o a second oven (unless I could add one very easily). I look to have it to make multiple batches of cookies at once, and when people come over to cook for holidays, etc. So, if it is a matter of going down from 2 ovens to one, I would not make the switch on the range. Also, depending on how big your kitchen is, the 36 might look small. We went w/ a six burner 42" inch cooktop because I wanted to make sure that ours was big enough for our kitchen and I think it would have looked too small (and the hood resultingly too small as well) if we had gone any smaller.

I would not care one way or the other on thermador vs. wolf though since I think they are both pretty high end brands.

Wallpaper removal and painting doesn't have to be hard. I do not do any DIY at all but my handyman was taking down wallpaper recently in my FL house and it looked fun and easy so I helped for fun. It was not hard, it just peeled right off (YMMV)

Yes it would mean only one oven - by the time we got a wall oven we might as well stick with the 48" and I am not a huge fan of the wall oven in the first place - especially as our kitchen is long and relatively narrow (approx 27ft x 13.5ft) and we want to go shallow on the back wall cabs and wouldn't be able to if we added another appliance.

The house is approx 5000sqft including the basement, so yes it's big.
We don't need two ovens, but we are always thinking of resale and don't want to do something that could detract from the value of the house.

Just wanted to throw out looking for floor model appliances as a way to save $$. We weren't even considering Subzero and Wolf as it was out of our price-range. We were all set to go with Thermador and then when visiting a showroom we happened upon an amazing 48" Subzero fridge and dual-fuel wolf 48" range for less than the Thermador fridge/all gas range combo we were going to get. It was crazy lucky but I'm just wondering if you can see if any distributors have floor models of what you want for sale or can tell you when they may change some out of the showroom out and sell what they have on display...? Good luck!

Would a convection microwave fulfill your second oven requirement? Also....use fabric softener diluted with water to remove your wallpaper. Try pulling off the top "vinyl" layer first...then use the softener on the paper layer....or score the wall first with a scoring tool then use the softener..it's cheaper than chemical remover and no fumes...works great.

If your budget is that tight, then find a plain jane used 30" oven on craigslist for the next year and just have a couple of mobile carts next to it to take up the space of a 48". Plan the kitchen around a 48", including the ventilation, but put in the cheap placeholders as a way of stretching your budget for now. There is no shame in cooking on a $400 range for 8-9 months or even longer while the budget recovers to get something more appropriate for the space. Do the same thing with any of the other appliances that can hold off for now as well, such as a DW, or possibly the fridge, unless you are doing built in on it.

Make sacrifices on your counter. You can live with plain polyurethaned plywood for a surprisingly long time. Same for the floor. As long as the cabinets are installed at the level of the ultimate finished floor, you can live with a poly'd subfloor for quite a while.

Not everything NEEDS to be done at once!

GreenDesigns - does your response indicate that you feel the 36" Thermador is such a huge compromise that we should avoid it at all costs?

We are having a baby soon so I am not sure when our budget might recover at this point! We want to get everything done and not worry about it. We're also already putting off a bunch of other projects so will have plenty to occupy us (and our budget!) for several years! : )

aokat, there is an outside possibility that we might be able to get Thermador floor models on the range (48") and fridge, but we aren't sure yet. I had hoped to hear on Friday, but will now have to wait until Monday to hear.

No luck on Wolf/ Subzero floor models so far - we would take them in a heartbeat if we could find them! Lucky you that you did!

Joaniepoanie - hadn't thought of a convection/ microwave combo. Second oven users, would that satisfy your need for a second oven?

Thanks for the tips on the wallpaper removal - there certainly is a lot of it in this house!!

I've never had a second oven and have never missed having one. You've said that you wouldn't use it so why buy it? Are you not planning to live in your home for some time? I, personally, wouldn't plan my dream home around resale value...the new owner can change what they want when they buy the house. I want it to suit my needs now.

Yes, in an upscale kitchen of some size, it would be a mistake to not have a range that was of the proper scale. The range is THE prime attractant appliance in a kitchen. It's the focal point of everything. It's not the place to cut, even if you can't do it all at once.

GreenDesigns: How about if it works out with the floor models and we keep the 48" but it's Thermador rather than Wolf/ Subzero? Is it the size or the brand, or both?
Also we're in NY right now, but the area we are putting the range into is between a window and a door and a 48" is a tiny bit tight. I'd post elevations, but can't from my phone.
I hear what you are saying though - my husband agrees with you and this thread is for both of us to try and reach a decision, so all opinions are very useful.

Slonewby; I would agree with you if we were most people, but we have a tendancy to not live in places long.
DH and I have been married 9 years and this house will be the 7th house we have purchased (it's our third Gardenweb kitchen!).
We HAVE to think resale because while we plan to be in this house long term, we just never know what is going to happen.
The house with Gardenweb kitchen number 1 was meant to be pretty long term but DH's job moved and we sold it before we got to put in a backsplash!

So not damaging resale is very high on our list, despite plans to stay here for a while. If we suddenly have to sell, we don't want to have an issue.

Food for thought
If you cut down on your range size, you will might need more cabinetry - so the cost factor might be a wash.
That being said - unless you have a huge family or lots of gatherings, 36 inch is definitely adequate. If once or twice a year, you need more than 5 burners, consider a side burner.
We are putting in a wolf oven and cooktop - thermador had some issues a few years back but more recently, I have seen some good reviews - almost went with Thermador but Wolf went on sale, and the rest is history.
T-2 weeks until cooktop install. I think the ovens will be installed this week.
(We are also putting in an Advantium speed oven - hope this is not a mistake...)
Pictures!!!

We have a large kitchen and the one area of disagreement my husband and I had was size of cooktop. He insisted on 48" and I wanted to save money and thought 36" was fine. I gave in on this one since I had made most of the other kitchen decisions. I'm so glad I agreed to the 48". The 36" would have looked way out of proportion in our space.

I used a2g's rational to decide I needed a 48... Cabinetry and countertops as well.

Do some digging! I was able to find an amazing deal on our range on CraigsList.

FWIW, I don't think a Thermador instead of a Wolf would hurt resale - but are you going to be happy with your kitchen if you make that change?

Range size importance for resale is variable depending on your location. My house is close to 5000 sqft and I have a 30 inch range as do plenty of my neighbors, suites my needs just fine and will not hurt resale because it's the norm. If you are in an area where people care more about the large range then they may also care more about the brand. What kind of ranges do comparable houses in your area have?

Also, be careful with scoring wallpaper. I do not use a scorer because it usually causes small marks on the drywall that have to be fixed prior to painting. Using a steamer and a spray bottle of warm water and working slowly and gently is what I have found to be the best method.

it's not the size of the house but the price of the house that determines the expectation. I would look at the real estate in your local market. if the other houses of the comparable size and price have a larger range, then you should get a larger range. if this is a suburban track home with rather middle of the road finishes where size was emphasized over the finish, then you are fine with a smaller range. Real estate is extremely regional. Where I am looking, we can't even find houses that big. If I did, they would be around $3M in the neighborhoods that I am looking at. Because houese are smaller, the kitchens are smaller and 30 and 36 inch ranges look find in these kitchens even at the price point of $1.5M plus.

I also agree about the design balance. You need a large range to balance the large kitchen. Otherwise, it looks cheap. You see these basic looking houses, large but the finishes are not there.

The houses sell when it is better put together relative to another house at a similar price point. The fact that you are asking tells me that it will be noticed in your market segment. Of all the things to update, the ranges are the easiest things to swap out. You plug in the electrical and twist on the flexible gas line. I would spend money on the refrigerator because built ins are hard to do later, if you are going that route.

Kaismom, you are 100% correct of course. : )

We are buying this house as a short sale but it appraised $230,000 higher than we are paying. Back in the day it was a fairly expensive house - around a million, but things are different now.
The neighborhood is expensive but not flashy. The neighbors houses tend to be meticulously maintained, but older as residents don't move much. As the houses come on the market they are being purchased by younger, fairly wealthy families wih high expectations.

'Our' (we close tomorrow!) house has some very dubious decorating choices and a kitchen which doesn't work in a house of this size and location at all (although it's not bad).

I think you guys have helped us answer our question and my DH probably wins this one - I am happy to save some $$$s by switching to Thermador which I still consider high end, but I think we need to stick with the larger range and try and save elsewhere.

Thanks again for all the comments.

Since you're expecting a baby soon, do you think that your cooking needs would change? Maybe not right away (giving you time to save for the big range) but when they start school, will you need that second oven for baking loads of cookies and cupcakes or having bigt traditional holiday meals at home?

I have a convection microwave and would far prefer a real second oven. It's even smaller than my small 27'' wall oven and the turntable further limits pan size. Maybe if I had at least a 30'' wall oven, the smaller second oven wouldn't matter, food for thought.

Hope This Helps

Your house situation is very similar to ours, we bought a larger house in an older, established neighborhood- big lots, all brick houses, million dollar+ at the height of the market with older folks now selling their maintained homes to younger buyers moving a little farther out of NOVa to get more house and yard for the money. Your first post asks for budget help and said that you are already feeling uncomfortably tight. If you have to update the majority of the house then you will end up spending more money than you expect now so save money where you can. Our house was also well below assessment but you will be surprised how quickly $250k goes on a big house.

Perhaps the scale of the kitchen can be reduced a bit so that a 36" is more appropriate to it's size. You could take part of the kitchen and create a butler's pantry, or beverage bar area, or walk in pantry. Areas like this give the impression of upscale, but you can put lower cost cabinetry in a different style in for them, and they also can reduce the footprint needed in the actual kitchen area. That's one "trick of the trade" that could work in your budget's favor here.

Maybe post a layout for suggestions?

If you can do a larger range, I say go for it. I wanted a 48", it would have fit perfectly fine into the space. My dh didn't see the need for it. I'm hoping that it will look ok with the 36". I did add a 1/2 leg on each side so maybe that will make it seem "more important" in there!

What are you doing about your cabinets? I'm not sure where you are going to be located but if you are doing new cabinets, have you talked to Dutchwood? I think you were in NJ, will you still be in that area? He might be able to save you some money and give you a great product.

Bee

Thanks for the continued suggestions. As soon as I can get on a real computer I'll post the drawings - especially of the range wall.

I can say that the cabinet elevation for the 36" looked far better to me because the cabinetry was better balanced and more substantial.
We redid it to reflect the 48" because my DH wanted to go that route.

Athomeinva - we will not be spending close to $230,000 on this house all in! We may spend more than we plan to, but not that much more.... unless there's something disastrously wrong that we don't know about.

i think you need to go with the 48 or maybe a 42 range with the two ovens in a home this size.
but!!
i bought my vulcan range for 800.00 ten years ago and it works fabulously.
really the important thing is making sure the kitchen is built to handle the weight and the heat.
if so, by all means check out used restaurant equipment. you'd be amazed at what is available for thousands less than the faux commercial stuff wolfe makes (in my humble opinion of course).
good luck, and happy baby!

I have 48" wolf range. That second oven is very small. We will be building again. I am going with a 36" range and a wall oven.

I wouldn't think twice about buying a home that had a 36" range vs a 48" range as long as there was another full size oven.

I do think a house as nice as yours needs two ovens for resale if resale is a future consideration. The range should be 36" with an oversized hood.

How exciting, that you got such a bargain, even if it is a fixer-upper! Congrats on the wee one as well.

hoboken-Our kitchen is 21'Lx 12'D (open to family room) and I think it looks just fine with a 36" rangetop. The island is in the way, so you can't see that it isn't a full range. We have double ovens, but only because I bake a lot. I can tell you that many of the upper level large Parade homes in our area do not have double ovens--they have a single oven with a microwave above it.

You've already stated that you currently have a 36" and it suits your needs perfectly. A single oven also fits the bill for you. What do the other homes in your neighborhood have? If they all have double wall ovens or a 48" double oven range, then I would likely do 48". But if there is a mix of sizes and configurations, I would go with what suits your needs--and in your case 36" single oven range will save you some significant cash. Plus, it allows for symmetry according to your last post which is a big thing for many people out there (myself included).

Keep in mind too that you are putting in a pro range. I personally do not think you could go wrong with either a 36" or a 48" as long as they're pro. That's mainly all anyone notices anyway. Trust me when I say no prospective buyer is going to walk in and say--'Oh, darn! We will have to pass on this beautiful house because it only has a 36" pro range and I just have to have a 48" to adequately cook in this kitchen!'

One last thing...who does the cooking? How much of it does DH do? Is it possible that he wants a 48" pro range out of a misguided sense of trying to do something he considers nice for you? I only mention it, because that's how my DH thinks. If he had his way, we would have had a 48" range with double ovens + another 1 or 2 wall ovens, just because he knows I like to cook and bake and he wants me to have the "best" tools to do it with & for me to be proud of when we have company.

Hope this helps!

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the cost of the venting and the hood for the 48" range. The cost isn't cheap for a 36" but will be upped a lot for the needs of the 48" range. If cost is a concern, it's something to consider and often gets forgotten about in the initial thought process.

How about a 48" rangetop and 2 separate ovens (either in the wall or under counter)?

My issues w/ a 48" range are:
- I don't like have a hot oven under while I'm trying to cook on the top (ie. when DH bakes pizza, while I'm cooking the toppings)
- I don't like the little 18" oven, which is too small for most bakings but still take 15-22minutes to pre-heat.

A really good toaster oven could easily replace the little 18" oven for fraction of the price.

would love to see the layout.

Amanda

- I don't like the little 18" oven, which is too small for most bakings but still take 15-22minutes to pre-heat.

Not sure what kind of small oven takes that long to heat. I use the small oven on our 48" Monogram every night to roast veggies. It takes exactly 7 minutes to come to 400degrees convection-roast setting.

Can i ask why not switch to a 48 inch range top, and 2 wall ovens? you can probably pick up a out of box, or a floor model and save some extra as well. you might even find the 48 range floor model or out of box, you gotta keep looking, even if it goes a bit after the project is finished, why not wait and save the money but get what you need, and want..

Listen, i deal with many customers all the time, and buyers remorse is HUGE.. if you don't buy what you want know, trust me you will later, and it will be a huge headache and bank account breaker.. so relax don't panic look around, I don't know where you live, but I'm sure you can find something, or go a little farther away, and see if you can find anything, but done sacrifice, that will only get you in the end..

just my 2 cents..

hoboken, how much is the 36" thermador range? you could switch to a 48" capital (precision) and pay about $5K. and i guarantee you wouldn't be making any sacrifices.

First off OP, I want to say how sorry I am that you are going through this. But let's face some cold harsh reality now. If you are putting in a new kitchen there are two golden rules that no one seems to be willing to admit.

1. Granite countertop
2. Range must have red knobs.

Even if your house is only worth a mill, these rules cannot be deviated. If you are going to buy some other brand range, you should just save even more money buy just going to Sears. These are the first things potential home buyers look for and make or break the deal.

I know it's not what you probably want to hear, but there is no use trying to justify anything else. Even when we were interviewing our cleaning lady, the first thing she asked us was if our range had red knobs or not. It's simply mandatory now.

:)

OP, listen to ChefAddict. You speak of choosing a stove for future buyers now, but anything you put in will be used at resale and very likely not to the current style (those tired, tacky red knobs!). In other words, no justification for a high-end purchase even a couple years before the for-sale sign goes up.

An obvious option doesn't seem to be a possibility, but I'll offer it anyway: Buy used to begin with. Save a few grand. No sacrifice if you find something you like or can afford to replace later. No buyers' remorse. Maybe no stripping wallpaper yourself even.

We saved a lot of money by doing a 48" range top and double ovens. Plus, the setup worked much better for our configuration. It seems that space isn't a big issue for the OP, so its an option.

Double ovens are an issue in our space as we are trying to avoid a huge bank of deep cabinets as our kitchen is narrow. Any cabs on the only wall that could hold ovens will be max 18" deep.

I understand you guys think we are crazy to be considering resale so much it having sold 5 houses in the past 8 years, resale is something I understand.
The knobs on the range matter - but feel free to mock away all you like! : )

I'm not mocking you Hoboken because I have the Wolf range. Sometimes the knobs bother me because I think they look pretentious. Then I wish I had the black. Most of the people around here have never heard of Wolf but would be mightily impressed if i had a Viking. I certainly understand your concerns regarding resale. I'll be selling in the future.

Mostly I keep my mouth shut about how great my range is because I try to avoid all of the pi***** contests that go on around here regarding ranges ;-)

Put in the 48" wolf range, find a nice hood on eBay like breezy girl did to save bucks, put this decision out of your mind, and enjoy your pregnancy.

Well we closed on the house today and demolition starts tomorrow!! Yay!

We are finally home so I have access to a proper computer.

Here is the whole range wall including the 36" range. We would probably actually simplfy the hood area a little more than is shown even if we go with the 36".

Here is just the range portion redrawn. He put the new drawer measurements in wrong - the drawer banks would now be 17.5" on each side with a 2.5" post on each side.

We would also have a cabinet above the hood, not just a hood as shown.

For anyone who is interested, here is the wall on the opposite side of the kitchen, including decorative glass cabinets and a window seat around the window.

The plan has the cabinets full depth on the two pull out pantries and fridge, and then dropping back to a shallower depth of 18" for the rest of the run. This is why we want to avoid the wall ovens.

Arial view (showing 36" plan).

The 12ft island:

I think we will go with the Thermador, but keep the 48" range. That saves us almost $6000 which we could really use elsewhere, but we keep the larger range.

Thanks for all the comments and hope these pics help a little - I know the pics are a little rough, they were all over different papers, so I had to put them together and take pics to be able to upload them!

hobo
Nice!
BTW - your end run by the window is almost exactly where I started - but went for function over fashion, so the cabinets are closed in.
How deep is your bench?

Not sure how deep that bench wil be. 18" plus the window is recessed maybe an additional 12 - 14".

I am hoping that we will have enough cabinet space elsewhere that the glass will work for us there!

The saga continues.

Went to a different appliance store today and they have a floor model hood on sale and better pricing so the difference between the Thermdor and Wolf is now $3500.

In addition, I took a look at the dishwasher that is coming out of our existing kitchen and it's really not bad. I am wondering if we could reuse it and thereby save $1000 on that appliance for now until it dies hopefully down the road and we could replace it then.

In addition the appliance guy today says we don't really need a 1200 btu internal blower as it will be too noisy and we should be using a 900 internal blower.

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

If we go with the 900 internal blower instead of the 1200 and reuse the existing dishwasher then we are about $2200 apart in price between the Thermador and the Wolf/ Subzero (keeping the 48" range) but losing a dishwasher.

I feel like it's close enough now that we should just go with the Wolf/ Subzero, but we had pretty much decided on the Thermador, so now I'm all confused again!!

Hoping that tomorrow brings some more clarity and any further comments appreciated!

No, the fact that you may be able to save $1k on the DW does not make the pricing of the two ranges any closer. (It may make you able to afford the more expensive range, but it does not change how "far apart in price" the two are. You could buy the cheaper range and reuse the DW.)

Good luck on the decision!

If it makes any difference, we have a 48" Thermador cooktop (not range) and I LOVE IT. It's older...from 1998...but when it comes time to replace it, I will definitely be replacing it with another Theramador.

We also have two 36" Thermador ovens below it, and they are champs as well.

Good luck!!

Angie DIY - the pricing IS closer together and we could make it closer still by reusing the dishwasher. It was over $6000 difference. Now it's a little over $3200 difference (in part due to floor model hood) and if we resuse the dishwasher it's more like $2200.

It's all about how the packaging pricing works. We can't reuse the dishwasher in the Thermador option as it's part of the package although we would get a new dishwasher for less than half the price of the one we would get with the Wolf/ SZ package price.

We are not buying these items seperately. There are promotions and discounts based on which pieces you buy. We can't just mix and match as you suggest.

youngdeb, thanks for your post! great to know you are happy with the Thermador. We are waiting to get a Thermador quote from the same appliance store today. If they come in significantly below our existing Thermador quote we will probably stick with Thermador - the question is at what price difference we would flip over to the Wolf/SZ?

I guess at over $6000 difference in package pricing we were definitely ready to go with the Thermador package. At $2200 difference it is much less cut and dry. We have to decide what our cut off point is and that is tough!

Sorry, I didn't catch that there was package pricing going on. It crossed my mind as I was typing my response, but I "decided" that it was not a package deal. Never mind.

Can't help on the appliances, but on the wallpaper removal front, I suggest you look into a wallpaper steamer. We got one from Home Depot to remove tarpaper that had been glued down over our old growth fir floors (sacrilege!), it was just $50, and it works beautifully. Stripping wallpaper is a chore and takes a lot of time -- maybe there's some local high school or college students that you could hire on an hourly basis cheaper than paying a GC to sub it out?

I wonder if these special Thermador prices are in response to all those oven recalls they had to do for the fires and burning.

Fires and burning?

Could you elaborate? That doesn't sound good!

That was with their old line. They've completely redone their ranges and they're so nice now!

For what it's worth, I've had two friends put in the new 48" Thermador ranges over the last year and they love them.

Update: We ended up ordering the Wolf/ Subzero - the only thing we haven't ordered yet is a dishwasher. i'm keeping everything crossed that we find a floor model on super sale!!

I bought a floor model on super sale (asko) and I regret it. Sales man gave me a pitch that he would get all parts, etc. It arrived with no hoses, no utensil basket, no screws to secure the dw and no screws to mount the custom door. Maybe I can get hoses and screws, but I don't know if they are specific to the dw and I have no idea what to buy.

Buyer be aware I suppose, but after not having a kitchen for ner 4 months, I have no patience with waiting for parts that should have been ordered upon my payment of the dw rather than a week after it was delivered to me. Sorry to rant, but be careful of floor models.

This is too late for your stove, but hoboken, you can get a good price without getting a floor model for your dishwasher.

Idea 1: I ordered a hood from AJ Madison in New York and think they are a very good company. Others on GW have had good luck there. Check their website regularly for sales on the ones you like.

Idea 2: Watch for big holiday weekend sales Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day etc for appliance sales. Our Kenmore French Door went from $1900 to $1200 over Memorial Day last year. Not a floor model or anything like that.

Idea 3: Identify 2-3 brands and models that you like before the day of the sale (whether online or in person) so you are not stuck researching when it's inconvenient.

Hey my friend here in Texas had to close his highend appliance store. He has got lots of subzero freezers, refrig. wine coolers. If you are in the market, send me an email for info. Way below wholesale.
surplustexas@aol.com