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drmeow3

Possibly OT - Floor safe

20 years ago

Hi all,

Not sure where to post this - if there's a better forum, please direct me.

I have a Gary brand floor safe (model 50C) in my house that was installed when the house was built in 1960. It is one of these cylinder style ones - the walls are 1" thick and the top/door is 1.5" thick. Cylinder is not embedded in the floor but is in a built in bench-like structure inside the house (I guess sort of like a window seat but it doesn't jut out of the house, it is inside along one exterior wall). Safe is installed in approximately a 20" x 20" x 20" block of concrete (safe is probably about 8" in diameter, maybe 18" deep, maybe less). The 20 x 20 x 20 block of concrete is surrounded by the following materials: cinder block; sand or dirt (anywhere from 6" to 4'); 3" bricks; interior wall (presumably drywall and studs); concrete slab floor (I assume - no crawl space or basement); and wooden bench. House is block construction. The small amount of documentation I have (what appears to be a id/"how to care for" tag that was attached to the safe) does not indicate that this is a fireproof safe but I'm wondering if it would provide any fire protection at all?

Thanks,

meo

Comments (9)

  • 20 years ago

    Let me get this straight. You have a safe with 1 in. thick steel walls embedded in ~ (20-8)/2 = 6 in. thick concrete, surrounded by "cinder block; sand or dirt (anywhere from 6" to 4'); 3" bricks" and you wonder "if it would provide any fire protection at all?"

    The answer is YES. It should survive any house fire.

    FWIW: Gary safes are manufactured by "FireKing" if that's any indication. You might want to contact them with any specific questions about your unit.

    Here is a link that might be useful: FireKing

  • 20 years ago

    Gosh, sorry - I didn't know I was being so stupid. Thanks so much for not limiting your answer to a simple yes and instead making sure to point out to me how stupid I'm being. That always really makes my day.

  • 20 years ago

    I answered your question and gave you a direct link to the manufacturer. Thanks for your sarcastic response to my assitance.

    To elaborate...gee they have bonfires right on a beach (sand), most chimneys (fireplaces) are made of masonry (blck and brick), in major fires what component usually remains? foundations (concrete). Typically safes are intended to protect valuables from all kinds of elements, the human element is the lock mechanism.

    Your welcome and glad I could make your day.

  • 20 years ago

    NO it's very little protection in a fire. all that sand and concrete around it is good, but the door will still be exposed to 2000+ deg of heat in a typical house fire. you have a steel box with one end exposed to 2000 deg heat. I would not expect your papers to last more than a few minuts.
    It takes a surprising amount of insulation (fire brick)to get even a 30 min fire rating.

  • 20 years ago

    Thanks qwertyui. That was exactly what I was afraid of and jives with the on-line research I've done this weekend. None of the floor safes I've seen on line have been rated for fire protection. Unfortunately, I also have not been able to find anything that I could fit in the safe to put my important papers into that would be fire rated (they are all too large).

  • 20 years ago

    poppycock I say. Based on the on-line research that I've done and my experience with building materials and fire, your hard pressed to convince me that this installation offers little to no fire protection even if the safe itself is not a specific fire-resistant unit. Further as this installation is above ground and is surrounded by sand and concrete (especially the sand) I suspect it was intended to be a fire-safe and not just a security safe.

    Call an installer or the manufacturer and get thier opinion.

  • 20 years ago

    About 10 years ago I bought a surplus fireproof cabinet from a company I worked for ($20. I couldn't turn it down). It didn't qualify as a safe because the steel was too thin and didn't have a fancy locking mechanism.
    It had a 30 min fire rating. It was the size of a two drawer filing cabinet and weighed over 300 lbs (I suspect it was a lot over, I had a tough time getting it as far as my garage). the insulation was about 4" of what appeared to be firebrick. a material that looks kind of like a porus concrete. The interior volume was less than 1/2 of one typical file drawer.

    I sold it because I couldn't figure out how to get it upstairs to my office and the small volume would limit it's usefulness anyway.

    Did a little reading on firesafes at the time, just idle curiosity I didn't and still don't have anything of great value that would fit in a safe. 30 min rating is generaly considered adequate for houses in reasonable proximity to a fire dept. Most house fires are out in less than 30 min unless it's a remote area. Film, video tapes, magnetic tapes of any kind, CD's, computer hard drives are much more sensitive to heat than paper and require more elaborate protection.

    A floor safe with an exposed top is certainly "some" protection against fire (define "some"?) How fast is your local fire dept.? If my fire rated cabinet with 4" of insulation was good for 30 min, then the floor safe with no insulation on one end would be good for a lot less (define "a lot"?).
    If I had this safe, I would put some valubles in it, but really important stuff would go into my safe deposit box at the bank.

  • 20 years ago

    A couple of inconsistencies. "I bought a surplus fireproof cabinet...the insulation was about 4" of what appeared to be firebrick". Note the "fireproof" and the description of insulation. Your saying that your cabinet was designed (albiet 10 years+ ago) as fireproof storage and not a security safe and you describe "insulation" around the unit comparable to the OP's installation description.

    yet your initial reposnse says "NO it's very little protection in a fire."

    You point out that the door for the OP's safe is exposed steel. This is an assumption based on the need to access the door to get to the interior. There is no reason that this door couldn't also be easily covered with "insulation" to surround the entire enclosure and I suspect that as originally installed it was. Also exposing the front door of a safe to the interior really doesn't hide it from thieves either.

    You further state "30 min. rating is generaly considered adequate for houses in reasonable proximity to a fire dept. Most house fires are out in less than 30 min unless it's a remote area."

    All reasonable statements and basically reinforces my post that the OP's installtion was probably intended as fire-protection as well as security.

    You are correct in that it is wise to define the materials that you want to protect and verify that the characteristics of the safe match expectations of protection. Fire-ratings are very arbitrary as fire is not an exact science. Ratings are reported in terms of exposure to a standard fire which may or may not have any resemblence to a real fire event.

    OP should call an installer or the manufacturer and get thier opinion.

  • 20 years ago

    " It takes a surprising amount of insulation (fire brick)to get even a 30 min fire rating."

    Fire brick is not used to insulate a safe (or any other container) from fire.
    Fire brick is designed to not be damaged by fire, and that is about it.
    Gypsum is the liner used for fireproofing safes, enclosures, and walls in buildings also.
    It calcines and releases moisture when heated to even a few hundred degrees.
    This produces two effects. It takes a lot of energy to calcine the gypsum keeping the temperature down, and the steam released will fill a closed container and act to dampen anything that is cool by condensation of the steam.
    Type X gypsum has been designed and tested to provide consistent behavior in fire proof wall construction.
    Lining any metal cabinet with Type X can greatly increase the fire survival of the contents.
    Floor safes are usually pretty good. While heat will be conducted through the door the heated interior air tends to stay up near the door.
    The FD is also going to be pouring water onto the fire, and a lot collects on the floor or in the basement. I have seen basements filled with feet of water following a fire.