So may I ask why you are pulling your cabinets forward to be 30" if you aren't creating extra storage space there? I don't understand the advantage. Usually, when someone has deeper cabinets, it's to gain storage space.

Looking at your "island", it's jutting into the opening for the sunroom - I don't think that's going to look good or be "friendly" toward passing from the sunroom into the kitchen. How much of an opening do you have getting through that area after you place the cabinets and countertop? If it's still plenty, what about building up that wall so that the cabinets don't jut proud of it.

For your rolling cart, where are you storing it when it's not in use? And will you be happy with it sitting in your planned storage area? I'm not sure that I'd like it sitting out...it would be one thing if it was going into a pantry or something, but it doesn't look like you'll have any kitchen area where you can keep it, so it'll have to sit in an adjacent room. And will you be happy to have to roll it back and forth when using it? Personally, that would annoy the heck out of me and I'd wind up not using it.

I'm not remembering what the issues are with having an island...you obviously have one in the existing kitchen and it seems like it's okay there. I remember that you wanted to raise up an area for the microwave, but I thought you had been putting it over by the fridge. In this layout, it looks like you've put it in the "island". Is that what you're planning on?

All in all, I'm afraid that I'm not loving this layout. I know that you said that for budget reasons, you don't want to explore removing load bearing walls, but I'm curious as to if you have checked how much it might cost to do so? I don't know if it would give you a significantly more usable space...but honestly, if it's an extra $5k to do it (picking numbers out of my head...I have no idea as to what it might cost) and you're planning on putting $30-50k into doing the kitchen, wouldn't it be better to hold on your remodel plans a bit longer to save up the money to get a better flow than to work around something that is a limitation? Again, not saying that removing a wall cures all of your ills, but perhaps it gives you some options that are worth exploring.

andreak100 -- lots of food for thought!

``I'm not remembering what the issues are with having an island...you obviously have one in the existing kitchen and it seems like it's okay there. I remember that you wanted to raise up an area for the microwave, but I thought you had been putting it over by the fridge. In this layout, it looks like you've put it in the "island". Is that what you're planning on? ``

Yes, after consulting everyone here, we moved the microwave next to the fridge. Then annkh pointed out in my previous thread that the microwave really crowds the window and sink:

After that, the more I look at it, the more I think annkh is right. That's why my brain started to spin again, and came up with some more crazy (?) ideas, and thus the new layout..

There is some clearance issue with the existing island. The existing kitchen has (from sink wall to the half wall): 24.5" sink counter (backsplash is 1" extra) with 21" deep base cabinets, 37" isle between sink counter and island, 25.25" island, 35.25" walkway between island and half wall.

Our KD would like us to have 42" sink isle width, which I think is the minimum recommended here. Because of that, the island has to shrink to allow room for the walkway between the island and the half wall. That results in two small cabinets in the island (with one used for a built-in dishwasher), and a really long and skinny island overhang near the fridge, which I don't like. A picture is worth a thousand words:

``So may I ask why you are pulling your cabinets forward to be 30" if you aren't creating extra storage space there?``

I pulled them forward mainly because there's a lot of open space in the middle in the new layout. If the base cabs are all 24" deep and not pulled forward, then I have a 6' isle. If they are pulled forward, the isle becomes 5' wide, and we could gain some counter space, and the non-counter-depth fridge will be flush with the counter. Our KD says there will be an up-charge for 30" (forgot the percentage), and I "think" we already have enough storage with 24" deep cabinets.

``How much of an opening do you have getting through that area after you place the cabinets and countertop? If it's still plenty, what about building up that wall so that the cabinets don't jut proud of it.``

The opening is about 53" from the cabinet front to the wall that's to the right of the fridge. We could built up the wall adjacent to the 'island', but we kind of prefer it open, if possible, as the best view is on the south side where there is an entire wall of windows. Maybe we could have a curved cabinet front / countertop instead?

``For your rolling cart, where are you storing it when it's not in use? And will you be happy with it sitting in your planned storage area? ... And will you be happy to have to roll it back and forth when using it? ``

I was hoping the butcher block with casters would be pretty enough so I don't have to put it away after each use. If I have to roll it back and forth several times a day, I don't think I will be very happy!

``I know that you said that for budget reasons, you don't want to explore removing load bearing walls, but I'm curious as to if you have checked how much it might cost to do so? .... wouldn't it be better to hold on your remodel plans a bit longer to save up the money to get a better flow than to work around something that is a limitation? Again, not saying that removing a wall cures all of your ills, but perhaps it gives you some options that are worth exploring.``

We considered taking down some walls to consolidate the space, and our KD tried a couple layouts with the range wall completely or partially taken down. But both layouts resulted in less storage, and an awkward placement of the range (because the ceiling drops to 8' flat beyond the range wall). It's a contemporary house and there are lots of unusual things going on. The ceiling in the nook and in the "main entrance to kitchen" is 8' flat, as there are bedrooms above them. The column attached to the half wall supports the bedrooms above, so it needs to stay. The den is one step (7.5") down from the kitchen and the sunroom. We really like how it feels to sit in the sunken den, so we don't want to raise it to be level with the other rooms. It was difficult for us, especially me, to admit that the existing kitchen layout is not that bad, considering all the constraints.

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 8:51

I can see now that it is a much more complicated layout problem than I first realized.

I am not one to jump into recommending that people ignore minimum clearance recommendations, buuut....

Do you feel crowded with your current clearance between sink and island? Does it create issues with more than one person in the space? What are your least-favorite aspects of your current island, besides the weird lower level eating space that you plan to remove anyway?

IMO if you have to spend money to deepen counter space just to bring scale to the room, and are not even gaining any storage space, it does not makes sense to me to do away with what might be a functioning island.

Also, IMHO, detaching the island from the rest of the space is not going to be very functional and will likely become a forgotten country.

Just off the top of my head, if your current island is working out okay for you, I would consider going back to keeping the original dimensions of your current island, or at least the same general shape and placement, provided you can get appliances in and out of their spaces properly and you do not feel too crowded.

Regarding your microwave, it seems to me that having it beside the fridge would be an ideal thing for your family. If you took it out of its cabinet and did away with extra drawers or whatnot its visual bulk would be significantly reduced and it would sit happily beside the fridge on the counter top. getting rid of a cabinet to house it will significantly reduce the amount of realistic space it occupies as drawn.

All just my non-professional opinions! I feel for you, because you have a tricky space and have had a LOT of input. Remember to fall back to what works for YOU, in the long run that is all that matters.

My non-expert opinion is that you may have created a less workable space in this new layout. Trying to review all that has been talked about with you...in some respects, it's been a little more difficult because they are in multiple posts, so I'm trying to reference things from my memory (which is fried!).

I understand the area being too open if you don't pull the cabinets forward...but, to do it without gaining any value (i.e. more storage space) just seems like a waste to me. And you've eliminated having a true island in favor of a rolling cart, which I wouldn't be a fan of.

I think that if you keep your sink to the left window area, the MW remaining where you had it by the fridge might be okay. And you were going to have the island as some landing space (I think) for things going in and out of the fridge. I think that I remember you saying that in front of the MW, there would be some counter space - a shallow "landing area". The other thing that you could do (and maybe that's what the drawer is, would be to make that a roll out landing space. - it pulls out when you need more room for stirring things from the MW and pushes back when you are done. I've attached a picture of what we did - while it's in a different area than how you would have yours, I think that our MW will wind up being is about the height you were wanting.

How uncomfortable are you with your existing clearances? We wound up going less than the *suggested* (this is an important word) "minimum" of 42" and came in somewhere around 38" countertop to countertop or countertop to handles on our "talls". I find it perfectly workable. But, it's because of how the layout is done. My DH can access the fridge without crossing into my main work area. Looks like with your island, that would be the case as well. Only potential issue is if you DH tends to help in the kitchen with you - narrower aisles can become a bit tight...but you have them already from what you've described...so, how much of an issue has that really been? Only you can answer that. We sometimes are told "you must do this or must do that" without regard to how it functions for you in your home. Wider aisles for me would have been almost uncomfortable to work in. I'm "compact" at 5'3", so I love that I can turn from my cooktop and reach my island without needing to take a step. Had my aisles been wider, I would have needed to take a step. Not that it's a bad thing, it's just that it would have been less convenient.

As you know, in a contemporary house, so much is about clean lines...putting that "island", which really isn't an island over where you were talking about and blocking part of the opening to the sunroom seems like it will not be a clean look. I don't see that island being all that functional.

Something that you will come to realize, every layout is going to involve some compromises. When I was putting together my layout, there were things about it that I knew weren't necessarily ideal. But, in thinking of how I function in the kitchen and how our family uses that area, the compromises that I made were the most workable overall for our needs and wants. I could have solved almost all of our challenges by adding two feet to the side of our house...but, that just wasn't going to happen. So, think about what isn't working so much in your current kitchen and what tradeoffs you can live with. Your previous layout is one that I think that I could live with. This current one? Not a chance. But, that's me...not you. The value here or with a KD isn't necessarily to get a "this is what you MUST do" as much as it is to get feedback on, "this is a potential issue if you do this". Here, that warning is typically silently followed up by a "can you live with that?"

Here are the big questions: how do you feel about the island spacing as it is? Does it feel cramped to walk past it to the sunroom? Do you think you would use island seating, if it was counter height? What do you like most and least about each layout?

Your overhead layout gives a much better look at the space than your real estate pictures, taken with a fish-eye lens! Know I understand where the half wall/post come in to play, and the sunken den explains why it can't move.

I've never had an island, and I'm not necessarily crazy about them, but I don't think it worked that badly in your kitchen. So far it seems like the island needs an identity, which it hasn't quite found yet.

But I kind of like the cabinet opposite the fridge! I see it as a snack area - MW, maybe coffee maker - it seems functional in its own right, now just thrown over there for the sake of filling space.

If you didn't want your rolling cart where it's drawn, I think it could easily sit up next to the can opposite the fridge.

In other words, I'm no help at all! I think you could make either work.

But I have comments. First, don't forget to put something to the right of the fridge, so you can open the doors.

Your island layout has the range further away from the corner, which I think it better. Our range used to be a foot from the corner (around a lasy susan, like you've shown), and it was a tight squeeze. In our remodel, we moved the range away from the corner another foot, and it is so much nicer to prep there.

From my understanding, the reason people pull cabinets forward is to create more counter space, and to allow for deeper uppers. I couldn't do it in my U, but if I had, I would definitely make use of the space - maybe not if I had a base cabinet, but certainly for drawers. 30" seems like a mighty deep counter - 27" would work. As for height above the oounter - if your family is tall, go for it. I'm 5'4", and wouldn't be able to reach the second shelf easily if my cabs started 21" off the counter.

As for uppers - I have a floor to ceiling cabinet 20" deep, and that is REALLY deep! It's a combination of very specific storage that isn't going to get lost in the depths. I think 15" uppers would be terrific, but 18" is headed toward Black Hole territory.

I agree with greenhaven about the MW. I have a cute little Whirlpool with a curved back, so it fits unobtrusively in a corner on the counter. Some folks despise that look; I don't think it's any more obnoxious than any other appliance, big or small. There almost seems to be an attitude here that the MW is a necessary evil, and we don't want to admit we have one, even if we use it many times a day. Not everyone wants to pay for a drawer MW, and since I've never used a MW under the counter, it seems weird to me. Plus my 6'4" hubby would have a hard time with it, I think.

I'm glad you posted your new layout. I've found that being challenged here made me think long and hard about some of my kitchen decisions, and talking through the possibilities - or defending my choices - helped me realize what I wanted most.

I know you said the post is required for structural reasons, but does the half wall have to stay?

I don't have a way to draw it out, but if you could remove that half wall, it would give you another aisle into the kitchen. The island could be centered in the kitchen, with the existing post going though the R front corner, and you could add a matching column on the L front corner for symmetry.

Posting from a phone, so sorry if I'm missing some obvious problem with this layout.

greenhaven, andreak100, annkh, swirlycat -- thank you so much for your inputs!

Regarding how comfortable we are with the existing island and isle clearances:

I think the current 37" isle between the sink and island is fine. I don't feel crowded. If one is using the sink, the other person can squeeze through, but I find that in reality, in order to get to the fridge, the other person usually just goes around the island instead.

The "going around the island to access the fridge" part annoys me. It's less annoying than the existing weak ventilation in the island, but still quite annoying. When I try to hurry to the fridge this way, I tend to bump into the corner of the island overhang (the corner closer to the half wall).

I do like doing my prep work on the island. I also enjoy standing behind the island cooktop, stirring while watching TV through the half wall, LOL. But we are putting the range along the wall so we can have much better ventilation.

We have enough island overhang near the fridge for one stool. We rarely sit there though because it will kind of block the other person from accessing the fridge. The lower part of the existing island has space for 4 stools, but we rarely sit there either. It's more like a dump place.

Now, the interesting part is, husband likes to pull a counter-height chair up to the half wall, put his bowl or plate on the sill (or is it called a ledge?), and eat while watching TV through the half wall, LOL. I like to do that too, but if the half wall sill is already taken, I will use the island overhang instead, LOL. We know it's bad to watch TV while eating, but given our busy work life, sometimes we feel it's nice to squeeze in a short episode during the meal...We are thinking about turning the full wall between the sunroom and the den into a similar half wall, for similar reason, LOL.

Regarding pulling out 24" cabinets vs. 30" cabinets:

During our last meeting, the KD said it's expensive and unnecessary to have true 30" deep cabinets. She discouraged us from going that route. But I will check with her again tomorrow approx. how much extra it would cost to have 30" cabinets, to satisfy my curiosity.

Regarding the microwave:

There's no landing space in front of it if the counter is 24" or 25" deep, due to the depth of the microwave we chose. The roll out landing space is something we like to have, if we don't do 30" deep counter. Anyway, I moved the microwave back to the counter next to the fridge but didn't add a cabinet around it and it feels more open this way: (Sorry I forgot to add a narrow pullout to the right side of the fridge.)

greenhaven -- is this what you meant by taking the microwave "out of its cabinet and did away with extra drawers or whatnot its visual bulk would be significantly reduced"? In this same picture, I changed the island to have a shape similar to the existing island and was able to add one more base cabinet to the island.

``I know you said the post is required for structural reasons, but does the half wall have to stay? ... If you could remove that half wall, it would give you another aisle into the kitchen.``

That's an interesting idea. The den is 7.5" lower than the existing kitchen. I think opening up that half wall might introduce a tripping hazard?

Regarding the rolling cart, I think I could replace it with a 32" high section adjacent to the 42" 'island', and use that 32" section as my prep / cutting surface (please see the picture attached below). Sorry, I am still thinking about my new layout.... Would this change improve the functionality of the 'island'?

Sorry I forgot to round the 'island' corner near the sunroom, and also forgot (again!) to add a narrow pullout to the right side of the fridge... Now I am going to go back to my old threads to re-read all the feedback I've got. Hope that will help clear up my head!

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 11:37

Consider some basics.

The refrigerator is the most-visited appliance in a kitchen. Put it where it's useful for the cook -- and for the family the family to access without being in the way of the cook.

A double sink evolved because it can do two things at once: Wash/Rinse; Soak/Run Water; Clean/Dirty. I'm a fan of a big-little sink as long as the 'little' side isn't teeny -- unless you'll have a secondary sink.

Dirty dishes need to be scraped into garbage or a disposal before they go into a dishwasher. Clean dishes need wall cabinets near the dishwasher.

Cabinets are 'boxes with doors'. If yours aren't falling apart, consider refacing over replacing. (This is not what a kitchen shop wants to hear, but it's your money.)

How often do you use an oven? How do you cook and serve? Where does your family eat? How much countertop do you need? I use cooktop and microwave for most meals. I have a cooktop with drawers beneath, and a M/W over wall oven, with 18" between for plating. You could have a secondary small M/W for family use (relatively cheap appliance).

Refrigerators can go many places. Best to vent cooktops/ranges directly through an outer wall.

Opinions: I wouldn't spend money in the existing kitchen footprint with so little gain. I wouldn't be so attached to that particular fridge or its' location; think of the overall costs. What's that vacant space with just a desk and a pantry? Where are supporting walls and/or areas on different levels? Where is the 'family entry' to the house?

For the microwave next to the fridge, How about raising the bottom of the cabinet above it be level with the cabinet above the refrigerator, then add a shelf below that for the microwave, but not anything below that -- that will give you some counterspace and more balance.

Attached is a picture of my kitchen in my previous home where we did this. Admittedly, this microwave was just a tad too high for my DD and me, so I might drop the shelf just a couple of inches. (But frankly, I'd probably do it the way Calumin did if I were in that situation again).

New hereabouts - usually post on the Home Decoration forum .... so here's a few thoughts:

1) On the Stove wall -- perhaps consider stacking the upper cabinets to add more storage -- and add the microwave over there? Or simply stack up the cupboards for out-of-season entertaining "stuff" (like patio or outdoor entertaining items)

2) Or add a microwave to the short cabinet in between the main prep area -- and the eating area .... and add a round island to the center for "staging" and "stacking" food during prep and storage ....

Just some thoughts .... hope you don't mind!

I like the looks of the L shaped island. I see you have an overhang for a stool, but you say that it's very seldom used because of the fridge access. Have you considered that now that the cooktop is gone, you have an unobstructed surface and may not need the extra length?

"greenhaven -- is this what you meant by taking the microwave "out of its cabinet and did away with extra drawers or whatnot its visual bulk would be significantly reduced"? "

That is precisely what I meant, thank for reading between my confusing lines, lol! sjhockeyfan's idea about the shelf is a good one except for the 24" depth of the microwave. I think that will still give you practically no useful space beneath it and would be better served with a taller wall cab and keep the MW on the counter.

I think that first re-worked floor plan with the resized island near its original dimensions and position is your best bet. You could still add a shallow cabinet/counter at the half wall that will properly accommodate a stool there if that is how you already use the space.

The second re-work is slightly more connected to the rest of the kitchen but only gives you practical prep space near the stove. You are still "all the way" across the kitchen from the fridge and sink.

If you generally like your island you have now, make it work for you. Take away from it those things you don't like, and keep or enhance the things you do.

except for the 24" depth of the microwave.

Seriously, what microwave is 24" DEEP?

I do not actually know if the microwave is that deep, but she did say that 24" or 25" deep counters would give no landing zone. So maybe not 24" but deeper than average, I am assuming.

Thank you, greenhaven, teacats, sherri58, sjhockeyfan, and chisue!

``Seriously, what microwave is 24" DEEP?``

The microwave we are getting is Amana RFS18TS. It has a depth of 20.25" including the handle. Add in 2" clearance in the back, it needs 22.25" total, taking up almost the entire counter depth.

I looked up Calumin's decorative shelf for the microwave with cooking books above. It looks very pretty! I will try that in my software. Mine might look very fat at the bottom (due to the microwave depth), but we will see!

teacats -- A big yes to stacked wall cabinets. I am playing with them now. I also like the idea of having a round center piece, but it has to be quite small, probably 30" in diameter at most, I think. Not sure if it's worth having one in my small space, but I will play with it.

``If you generally like your island you have now, make it work for you. Take away from it those things you don't like, and keep or enhance the things you do. ``

I am about ready to go back to have the island near its original dimensions and placement. I was trying to come up with a "better" layout, but now I realize the (late) architect and the original owners (i.e. the sellers) had probably already done their best. :)

``What's that vacant space with just a desk and a pantry? Where are supporting walls and/or areas on different levels? Where is the 'family entry' to the house``

I added two PAN pictures of the entire kitchen area to the end of my original post, to help everyone visualize the existing space.

The vacant space is a small nook. The previous owner had their dining table there. We might put a small banquett type of seating there, with a small round table, to seat 2-4 kids / adults, for playing games, doing homework, etc.

The house is two 3-level buildings, staggered. All the levels are connected by a staircase in the middle. One building has (from bottom to top): garage, kitchen, bedrooms, and the other building has: foyer/family room, living room, and more bedrooms.

So the family entry to the house is one level below the kitchen level. The foyer connects to the kitchen through half-flight of stairs, and the stair landing is near where my arrow indicates "main entrance to kitchen".

All the walls shown in my layout are supporting walls. Many of them used to be exterior walls. For instance, the sunroom and the nook used to be decks, and the original owners enclosed them at some point.

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Fri, Apr 18, 14 at 15:05

Wow that thing is huge! (I guess my Sharp microwave drawer is equally huge, but most of it is hidden, so I don't have to care :-) ). That's why I went with a GE Spacesaver in my last remodel - it was the smallest of the "full size" microwaves available, and since I use my microwave for three things - defrosting, cooking frozen vegetables, and simple heating, it seemed like the best use of space. (p.s. I already overcook things in the Sharp (its much more powerful than the spacesaver), so be aware - at 1800 watts, things will cook mighty fast in the Amana).

My GE spacesaver is 12.5 " deep and sits nicely on a 11.5" deep shelf. It fits my largest casserole dish.

That's what I had in my previous home (shown in the picture above).

Cookie, if you end up with a big honking MW on the counter, you could put a pull-out cutting board under it for a landing space.

Here's an idea of what it might look like if you have the MW by the fridge. Sometimes seeing something in a picture makes it easier than trying to figure it out with the drawing programs.

ILoveCookie, Sarah Richardson says that 36" clearance is generally fine and regularly designs that way. It's important to consider how many cooks will regularly be in the kitchen, and how the space will be used in general.

I think that rolling island carts often look like an afterthought, and don't have the same functionality that an island would.

Cookie- Hi :)

I like your house. Such a nice layout...with lots of possibilities!

Maybe it's just me...but I don't love the fridge in that location. I have that...and I can't wait to move it! LOL

It's the first thing you see as you walk in (at my house) and in yours, it seems a little close to the wall. Have you considered moving it to the other side of the L? Where the pantries used to be? If you extended the wall a bit, I think it would fit very nicely...maybe with a bookcase or small pantry (facing fireplace).

This would allow you to center the sink under the window and have a nice dish storage/buffet area by the dining table. The island could be mobile or fixed...even with a prep sink. The size is up to you...I just added one that might fit with your walkways, but you might want to add the microwave there, too.

I like the idea of a fireplace, but I would make it with a raised hearth, so people can sit there and visit with your in the kitchen. Not much room for chairs, unless you have a zero clearance fireplace.

The nook...could you add pantry cabinets on that entire wall? Maybe deeper in the middle and more shallow on the ends (to work with the window)? The banquette is nice, but if you move the pantry, you'll have a lot more space. Just a few ideas :) {{gwi:1824940}}From Kitchen plans

Hi LL! :D

Yes, we could make that entire wall a pantry wall, and make the banquett seating area larger. I'd also love to have a fireplace with raised hearth. Add a few cushions, it would be very comfortable to sit there, especially in the winter!

Thank you, feisty68, andreak100, annkh, sjhockeyfan, debrak2008, and LL!

We met up with our KD yesterday, and had quite a few things figured out, including the island and the microwave. :) We also saw the quotes for cabinets / appliances / countertop / etc. Then we realized the fireplace and the pantry and the banquett seating will probably have to wait till next year, which is fine because we don't really need them right away. The quotes are quite reasonable for what we are getting, but we are still a little surprised that the numbers add up so quickly!

Regarding the microwave, our KD feels strongly that it should be in the island. She says it's too bulky to be next to the window. Well, husband managed to come up with a nice compromise -- put the big honking microwave in the island on a shelf, and put a cute 0.5 cu ft Whirlpool corner microwave (the same one that annkh has) on the counter next to the fridge. We could use the big powerful one for steaming veggies (probably once or twice a day at most), and use the small one for frequent reheating (like tea, coffee).

Regarding the island, we are convinced that it's better to keep it in the center. The island we came up with is a squarish 44" x 48" island, with the lower tier at 30" (or 32") high for prep, and the upper tier at the same height as everything else (36" high). I think that's something I could live with. We also added a breakfast bar to the half wall. It's 15" deep x 5' long x 36" high. Our KD managed to get us a 39" isle between sink and island, 39"-42" isle between island and range, and 42" isle between island and breakfast bar. (I think my drawing attached below might be a few inches off.)

Regarding the fridge, I don't particularly like its current location. Maybe it has something to do with its bulkiness. Or maybe that's because the landing space near the fridge is not that convenient to use. I will think about it more, and try moving it to the end of the range wall, like lavender_lass suggested.

Below is where we are at. More comments are welcome! Thank you!

I'm just curious - do you mostly sit when you prep food? If so, the lowered side of the island makes sense, if not, not sure about that feature. I'm sitting here (at table) looking at my island, and it would look quite odd if someone were on the other side, sitting at a 32" high counter.

No, I usually stand when I prep food, except maybe when I cut the ends off the string beans with scissors, and other things as repetitive as that.

30"-32" seems to be a recommended height for baking. I figured when it's not being used for baking, I could put a thick butcher block on it to get a 34" high cutting surface. I am only 5'2", so a low cutting surface is nice for my back and shoulders. Our KD thinks that 30" might be slightly better than 32", as I can easily use a table height chair for the 30" counter.

We did think about lowering some section of the countertop along the range / sink walls, but couldn't find a good place to do that.

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Sun, Apr 20, 14 at 12:36

While I think the rectangular island still looks best suited for the pace, having the breakfast bar there at the half-wall is really using the space well because you are enhancing the way it is already used.

I think, overall, you are getting a lot more distance out of your dollar the way you have it set up now.

Not convinced that the multi-level island is the way to go, but the only one who can answer that with any real authority is you. Do you have a way to try out the two heights before committing?

Cookie- Why are there no uppers left of the window? Is that the computer program or the plan?

I would definitely check into moving the fridge. If it's not too expensive, it would put the fridge closer to the nook. Which table do you plan to use the most? And which location will be easier to access the fridge from the den and other areas?

Last question...is the sunroom big enough for that table? It looks a little tight, but that might be the picture. Would the table be better in the nook and make that the dining room? I just wonder if the sunroom might feel roomier, with a smaller table and maybe a few comfy chairs? And lots of plants :)

Hi Cookie! Did I read your post correctly? You are thinking 2 MW's. I'm sorry, but I don't understand that at all. Could it be my 2 glasses of wine with dinner tonight? I wouldn't think 2 MW's would be better than one in any kitchen, but maybe that's just me.

Thank you for your thoughts, greenhaven, LL, and sherri58.

``Do you have a way to try out the two heights before committing?``

Our existing island is 35" high at the tall section, and 27.5" at the low section. The low section has one end sit on a leg, and the other end attached to the tall section's cabinets. We could try raising the low section to 30" or 32" and see how the new height works out.

``Could it be my 2 glasses of wine with dinner tonight? I wouldn't think 2 MW's would be better than one in any kitchen, but maybe that's just me.``

LOL, it's not you. Husband says that we will need to get a temporary countertop microwave anyway during the remodel, why not keep using it in the new kitchen, so we don't have to worry about the ergonomics as much as we did in the past couple weeks? I guess we can always put it away if the microwave in the island is good enough for everyone. :)

``Why are there no uppers left of the window? Is that the computer program or the plan?``

I have this dream of having as few wall cabinets as possible, LOL. I don't quite like having uppers in my face. Our KD convinced us that in our layout, it's necessary to have an upper cabinet to the right of the window, to store mugs, wine glasses, etc. We think that hanging a tall piece of artwork to the left of the window might help balance out things.

``Which table do you plan to use the most? And which location will be easier to access the fridge from the den and other areas? ``

I think we will use the table in the sunroom the most, regardless whether it's a dining table or not. We tend to stay in the sunroom (and the den) much more often than the nook, because these two rooms get sunlight all day long, whereas the nook only gets sunlight in the morning. The view is also much better in the sunroom and the den.

Our KD likes to have the fridge near the dining area. I guess by that logic, the fridge should stay near the sunroom. However, moving the fridge to the range wall will make it more centralized, and allow easy access from every room. I will look into doing that.

``Is the sunroom big enough for that table? It looks a little tight, but that might be the picture. Would the table be better in the nook and make that the dining room? I just wonder if the sunroom might feel roomier, with a smaller table and maybe a few comfy chairs? ``

You are right, it's tight in the sunroom. We will need to use 2-person benches that can be tucked in under the table after each use. The nook is wider, but the downside of having a 7' dining table in the nook is, it will kind of block the back door that leads to the backyard.

I've been debating whether to have the banquett seating (or something similar and cozy) in the sunroom or in the nook. It could work in both places.

Maybe I should give up the idea of having a not-so-small dining table? Or try harder to convince husband to move the entertainment center from the den to the nook, so that I can use the den as the dining room?

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Sun, Apr 20, 14 at 22:47

I spent a few hours looking for inspiration pictures for narrow dining space, and found this on Houzz: (It is 1"-2" narrower than my sunroom, and has a 32" wide table in it.)

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Eventually, I'd like to have a banquette seating like this for 2-4 people:

This post was edited by ILoveCookie on Mon, Apr 21, 14 at 12:53