Hi Squirrel,

Don't you just love the fait accomplis attitude of hers? I'm sitting here drafting a snarky email but it will have to be revised for "tone-age" as DH calls it. Although I don't see why I'm bothering. She doesn't really take me seriously or read what I write anyway.

Maybe it's time to jump ahead to the complaint with the BBB and arbitration--although some business person arbitrator down the line would probably think I should have given the manufacturer another chance to do the furniture right.

The bigger issue is that when I even just look at this stuff it makes my blood boil. I really want it gone.

I'd see what she has to say and then file a complaint with the BBB. They can't really do anything, but my understanding is that they will coordinate the dispute, letting her know there's an issue and give her a period of time to resolve it favorably. Unresolved issues get left on her record. I don't know who decides what's a reasonable outcome though.

You do want to make sure that they don't just start manufacturing another entire custom set for you.

Sounds like they already started it!!

She did the same thing when she found out the furniture had been damaged during shipping. She never told us until July. Had we known about it in March or April, we could have gone in a different direction and we would have had furniture for this summer.

Meg, You said at the beginning of this string that your DH emailed her insisting on a refund. Don't you send her anything YET - confer with your DH. I like his 'tone-age' comment. Would he agree on resending his previous email, repeating the request for the refund and confirming that you do not want a replacement set?

Hi again patser. While I want to keep saying give us a refund, part of me thinks that we might need to give the manufacturer one more chance--in case we end up in arbitration. I can't believe how confused I am by this.

So if she can provide furniture the same quality as the Kreiss furniture, and it's warranted, then that would be great. So I'm thinking of telling her that.

I'm pretty sure there's no way her supplier can provide that kind of furniture, and I think she's very aware of that--which is probably why she changed her tune so drastically in response to DH's email.

Then how about just having them make one chair for approval to move forward in that direction.

That's a brilliant idea, Squirrel. Maybe we'll propose that. I'll discuss it with DH.

Does your local government have a consumer protection agency? If so, contact them, rather than BBB. Also, does a local radio or TV station have a consumer reporter? Contact them.

Meg-the Warranty is WORTHLESS!!! Follow the chain of agreements that are not in writing; you have to go thru FD. In 2 years a leg rusts and breaks.........who do you contact?
You have given the FD every opportunity to fix this order - so as far as arbitration - she has done nothing to resolve this.
Without finding out your legal rights as a consumer in your area, whether you go thru BBB (worthless organization in my opinion) or another binding board, you are acting wildly. Education is the key here. She has that on her side, and all the power at this point.

Meg, if you should happen to do a sample piece somewhere down the road -- ensure in writing that it will remain a sample piece only. You don't want a different craftsman, different finish batch, etc., on that one item as it may come out a bit differently.

Not sure about the local consumer agency, but there is a local TV consumer guy named Jesse. I have never watched him but when I told someone I was tempted to "Get Jesse" (his tagline), my friend made some comment that he'd go crazy with this story--but not in a good way. He'd probably latch onto the cost of this stuff, etc., and wouldn't make either of us look very good.

Not sure about the local consumer agency. The State Attorney General's office provides mediation services, but they're not binding. I think that the binding arbitration through the BBB is the best option, short of litigation.

And for those of you who keep saying I need to get a lawyer, I have spoken with friends who are lawyers and their conclusion is that litigation would cost too much, especially since FD's husband is a litigator. (I had called someone a while back and he never returned my call.)

In the meantime, I have sent an email expressing surprise that she has given the manufacturer the go ahead given the unresolved issues. If the replacement furniture will be exactly the same . . . yada yada yada, but if not, then we want our money back. I also mentioned Squirrel's chair for approval idea (which would become a sample piece), etc.--some assurance that this stuff will be the right quality.

Now I'll just wait. Thanks again for all your help.

Hopefully it won't be another couple weeks with no reply. Wouldn't you just love to know what she's thinking. Maybe you can put that stuff in the basement or something so at least you don't have to look at it every single day as a constant reminder.

I don't see that the BBB could do any harm. You at least might get some definitive answers about where things stand and are going in her mind. Good luck and keep us posted : )

How about Smart Money magazine's consumer column? There are other journalistic resources you might explore, which might terrify her into getting moving.

(((Meg))) -- what a colossal pain!

Go to small claims court and be done. You are not being forceful and she knows it so she is running the show with your money. You should have put a stop to it when it was delivered and you same home and saw it. Why do you still have the furniture? Why didn't you DEMAND her to pick it up at once and give you a refund from the get go. You shouldn't be dealing in emails you should be sending her letters CMRRR.

You can't make someone do something, and being demanding about things is counterproductive in that regard and will likely not be received well. There is a lot of money involved, so she is not going to simply absorb the cost herself.

I do hope things are straightened out with the manufacturer soon so you can just be done with it. Small claims w/o a lawyer, with photos and one of the chairs with you, is a good idea if the loss isn't too great. I wouldn't want to pay her one penny, for nothing.

In my opinion, you are never going to get money back from this woman. The most she is going to do (obviously) is order new furniture, which will still not be the style/design/dimensions/finish you want. You want Kreiss furniture, and that's not what this designer is getting for you.

Litigation will likely get you nowhere, as you don't have any details of the order in writing. She knows this, and so does her attorney husband.

If I were you, I'd still follow through with trying to get a refund, but plan on receiving another set of unacceptable furniture. Sell it on Craig's List or Ebay or some other way and be done with it.

I know you don't want to do this but, she isn't paying attention to your message. It is past time to get an attorney to write her a letter. This might cost you $250 or so but maybe it is the only way to get her to listen to what you want. I don't think she wants to get into a legal battle with you.

Here is FD's response:

Hi meg: I have to give them the opportunity to replace the order. I have sent pictures of all the damaged items as well as photos of the Kreiss finish and detail on the feet. The furniture is not going to be Kreiss furniture. The quality will be equal. I have made that perfectly clear to the manufacturer or we will not accept the product. If you want to go the route of a "sample" it will take longer to complete the order but I will let them know that is what you desire.
Regards,
FD

***********************************

Note that she has said nothing about the warranty or that the lounge chairs are not comfortable, so I need to follow up once more.

Additionally, the timing leaves me very nervous. It's been nine months since we originally ordered the furniture. How long to make a sample, and then ship it? And then another few months to make the set--assuming the sample was acceptable--and then more shipping time. And if something gets damaged in transit again, then what? Another entire summer without furniture?

I just sent an email asking about the warranty and the lounge chairs and we'll see.

Maybe she needs an itemized communication, with numbers : ) I wonder if she's trying to make you look like a demanding or nervous nelly client with all these emails and such, in the event there's a lawsuit. If you haven't done so already, be sure to state that some of the issues are continually being skirted or remiss in her communications. Then itemize them.

Hi Squirrel,

I had not numbered the four points, but I did use bullet points. This is her typical mode of communication: focus on only one or two things and ignore the other issues. That's why every email "begat" another email, and so on. And then there are those loooooong stretches where there are no emails at all--not even when there should be, as in when the furniture got damaged during shipping.

I can't tell you how much I regret not throwing a hissy fit when she finally told us about the damage issue in July. July!!! (Have I said this before?!?!)

Anyway, I just sent her another email and you'll all be happy to know that I'm looking up consumer lawyers on the internet--although they seem to mostly represent consumers who are in debt, not consumers who have a problem with a business transaction.

I've been following your saga and I can certainly feel for you! We have been going through a similar thing with Pella windows for almost 2 1/2 years now!! We have an attorney and they still keep skirting the issue, but hey, we have had 3 sets of windows installed in the back of our greatroom...and they still have defects in them!! As for the rest of the windows in the house, they don't want to acknowledge that they have the same problems. What's a consumer to do? Short of suing them which would probably cost more than the product cost to begin with. It surely is difficult to get the product you ordered and paid for from some companies. I wish you luck and hope you have a better outcome than we have had. When this is all over I am writing the BBB, attorney general and consumer's union!!!

I went around and around with Home Depot with my windows. They couldn't get the order right and they had to be installed three times. No wonder it's all so expensive! A one-day installation that took nine months and a tremendous amount of my time and energy to get completed. Never be so trusting as to pay in full until everything is done and alright! The initial installation even leaked. I've done it more than once and once they've got the money you are loowwww priority and they are onto other income producing things.

The woman simply cannot answer a question.

Here is my email to her:

Hi FD,
Before I get into the specifics of the proposed replacement set, or ask additional questions about the timing of getting a sample, etc., we need to know about the warranty. Is there a warranty? And, if so, what are the terms of the warranty. Your response also did not address our concerns regarding the lounge chairs and how uncomfortable they are. What do you propose as far as that goes?
Thanks,
meg

And here is her response:

Hi meg: As I mentioned to you before, I do not personally warrant the manufactured product. My price point to you does not allow for that and never did. That being said I have used my goodwill with this manufacturer to secure their replacement of the ENTIRE ORDER so that the product they supply will be to your satisfaction. The quality will be equal to the Kreiss furniture but, of course, it is NOT Kreiss furniture for that is not what you purchased (otherwise you would have bought the ensemble from Kreiss at their prices). The manufacturer understands that if the product is not of comparable quality, we will not accept it. I want you to be completely satisfied and the manufacturer has that same desire as evidenced by their willingness to replace the entire order. Please let me know if you wish to proceed with your "sample chair" proposal on the understanding that the total time to replace the balance of the furniture will be extended. In either case, I will give the go-ahead to the manufacturer as soon as I hear back from you.
Regards,
FD

So is she saying that there is no warranty?

And, again, she has not answered our question about the comfort of the lounge chair.

Is she purposely being obtuse???

How about one at a time, no fluff (but you need to be clear in your mind how you are going to proceed with the implied "no warranty" of her email and which she did disclose earlier, and in the fact that the lounge chair may look like the Kreiss but may not be as comfortable for whatever reason.

"What are the terms of the warranty."

Get a response.

"Are they changing the comfort to that of the Kreiss and what if it still isn't comfortable."

Get a response.

(hahaha, is she charging you for all these emails??? Maybe that's the method to her madness.)

Good question, Squirrel. If she presents me with a bill, I'll laugh in her face. She probably thinks we still have a relationship since she's "trying so hard to make us happy."

I, of course, am daydreaming about sending her the perfect response in which I just let her have it. Tell her how she's just not getting it from our point of view. That we feel betrayed and ripped off, etc.

Why doesn't she just use her considerable good will to get us a refund? And at what point do I tell her that we have no intention of paying for the shipping and all the time she's put into it since then?

Too bad I hadn't read this before I began dealing with FD.

Here is a link that might be useful: article on outdoor furniture

Oh boy, it gets so complicated. Until you get a bill you can't complain about it, so I guess just see if she's that brazen. I would have no intention of paying it either. I suppose it's prudent and proactive to approach it up front -- that you hope you aren't being charged for resolving all this (without being inflammatory). How frequent does she bill? On the other hand, if she says "yes" -- then I would stop contact and have a lawyer cut to the chase with a letter. Maybe that's a good idea to find out, then?

My understanding is that the generous markup put on furniture is to cover the assortment of details and issues that arise during the course of a purchase (as well as other things, like her time spent keeping up with the market for her clients, resources, finding the piece, etc.).

She won't just give you a refund because the manufacturer doesn't want to. Honestly, I don't see how she can be financially responsible for the work of every contractor or company she works with. But she should have been there to reject it and withold payment. Kind of makes you wonder if it is her company/funds, hm. Why they want to make the whole thing over again doesn't really make sense to me, as there's a good chance you won't accept that either. I guess that's what minimizes the loss for them -- when accepted -- and they feel they will be able to make it in the correct finish for less than a full refund. My concern there would be that, if you don't feel the next batch is good quality, they will claim it is and are not going to try to please a fussy woman any more.

Why doesn't she just use her considerable good will to get us a refund?

Good will with you went out the window months ago. At this point, she's trying to preserve her good will with the mfg, so she's getting them to replace the furniture.

I do not personally warrant the manufactured product. My price point to you does not allow for that and never did.

There is no warranty. You need to accept that. You were originally willing to order and pay for furniture that carried no warranty. (Most warranties are useless anyway.)

it is NOT Kreiss furniture for that is not what you purchased (otherwise you would have bought the ensemble from Kreiss at their prices). The manufacturer understands that if the product is not of comparable quality, we will not accept it.

This is the crux of the entire matter. She is trying to tell you that you get what you pay for. And who will decide what is "comparable quality"? You? Her? Some standards need to be put in writing now, before they start to make the new set. On the other hand, this part of her email is your "out" if you truly don't want the furniture. You may have hope for a refund after you get the new furniture, if you can convince her that it's poor quality. That will be tough to do, as she'll just fall back on the "it's not Kreiss furniture" line of reasoning.

I want you to be completely satisfied

I think she put this sentence in just in case you take her to court, so she can look like she tried to please you and you were just being difficult.

The new furniture will be just like the furniture you have now. The lounge chairs will be the same style/dimensions. The mfg is not going to retool their machines for one set of chairs. They will still be uncomfortable.

Don't bother wasting more time getting a sample chair. Just get the new furniture and sell it and buy what you want.

Tell her in your next email that you will not pay for additional shipping or time. And get her agreement to that in writing. Get SOMETHING in writing!

Current draft (fantasy) email, although there are parts I should send:

Hi FD,
Once again, before I get into the specifics, please answer the questions:
--was that your way of saying that neither you nor the manufacturer will warrant this furniture if there's a problem in the next ten or fifteen years?
--what is the manufacturer going to do to make those lounge chairs more comfortable?
I wish you would use your "considerable goodwill" to just send the furniture back and give us our refund as we've been requesting all along. You once told me that you were going to sell the antique beige cushions to some other client down the road. Do us all a favor and take the furniture, too, and sell all of it to some other customer down the road. Someone will be very happy not to have to wait several months for their outdoor furniture.
By the way, now would be a good time to tell you that we are not paying for all these inane emails back and forth to try to resolve what was essentially your errors in ordering this furniture. I don't think you're "getting it" from our point of view, nor do you appreciate how betrayed and ripped off we feel by this whole transaction. Your continued statements that you want to make us happy are contradicted by your actions. You want to make us happy? Give us our money back.

Thanks for your comments uxorial,

DH won't even agree to a replacement set if he knows there's no warranty, so I'm in a difficult situation. I cannot believe how duped I feel by this whole thing.

I wish there were a way to find out how much she paid the manufacturer, or how much she'd be willing to "eat" to just be done with this whole thing.

She said in our phone call that I am not going to be responsible for the additional shipping, but since she's been known to change her story, I should get that in writing. She actually said something like "You've paid in full for this. You won't have to pay for anything more." I wonder if she's thinking she will be paid for all these emails.

And her trips to Mexico, too, right Squirrel?

Make the sample a lounge! How long can it take. Is expecting comfort too much? Honestly, for those prices, anyone would expect a piece to have quality craftsmanship and have enough thought and effort put into the design to be ergonomically comfortable -- and for it to be expected to hold up for whatever would be considered a reasonable amount time for something like that. What are all those thousands of dollars for???

Maybe ask her what her affiliation with the company is, too : )

Well, a trip to Mehico is certainly beyond the call of duty, haha, but no cigar! And you know you're chipping in on the bill for all that, too, somewhere!!

Another brilliant idea, Squirrel. FD says that she has "the same lounges" at her house (from another collection so I don't understand how she says they're the same) and maybe I should ask to see them, measure them, sit in them, etc.

One point that hasn't been mentioned is that she knew that we planned to supplement the set with additional pieces in the next year or two. So if it's not going to be the same, our new pieces will look very funny.

I may just email her to tell her we need some time to consider our options. Maybe ask a few questions about timing, perhaps set up a meeting with DH there, too. And use that email as an opportunity to clarify that we have no intention of paying for these many emails trying to resolve her ordering mistakes.

Sounds good. Go see them and sit in them for a period of time.

You really do need to come to some sort of a formal agreement and written contract for resolving this. Very specific as to the agreements being made, that all can sign off on. I know it's tough, but that's what you need to do if you continue in this direction. Do you want to do that without a lawyer's eyes? Maybe not if she's that crafty and elusive in her dealings, ie, doesn't play above-board.

Meg- Take 5 minutes right now, call a contract attorney, briefly explain your situation and just see what she/he has to say. Most atty's will talk to you on the phone for free. It won't hurt to just explore this option and you will have a better feeling of your position. You don't need to hire a lawyer (but I think I'd personally explore a "demand" letter) but at least get a firm feel for your legal position.

I'm thinking of sending something like this. Can someone help me with the language about the email billing? Do I include that last line about her absorbing the time or not?

Hi FD,

I think we need some time to consider our options.

In the meantime I wanted to clarify some issues about billing. In our recent phone conversation you made it clear that we would not have to pay for any additional shipping. I took that to mean that we will not have to pay for the return shipping of the set you already delivered or for the shipping--in either direction--for any replacement set, if there is one.

Additionally, it is our position that we should not be billed for the time (including emails) spent trying to resolve the outdoor furniture problems. Since the problems were the result of errors by the manufacturer or by you, the time spent trying to resolve the problems should be absorbed by you.

I would appreciate your confirming that this is your understanding as well.

Hi Nan,

Funny you should mention that. I actually did speak with an atty yesterday for about ten minutes. And he's going to get back to me with either a name of someone who can help me or somme ideas. Not sure he's familiar with that area but it was a good starting point.

I meant to start the conversation by identifying FD and her DH to check for conflicts, but forgot. After the entire story he asked who the "other parties" were. Turns out he's spoken with FD's husband, but there's no conflict. Well, other than the fact that we might all belong to the same synagogue. How's that for a comfortable high holiday service?

Paragraph two is inflammatory, imo. Leave the blame and 'you' things out.

I would say something more like -- Additionally, we want to be sure that we are not being charged for other things, such as the time it is taking to resolve this.

The trouble I always have with 'free' consults, of any sort, is that they are trying to sell you something so, of course, they're going to (likely to) lead you in that direction. If it's something clear and dry, where they know immediately that there's no possible positive recourse legally, then I guess that would be useful and a quick fix. Other than that, my experience is that they will try to reel you in, iykwim.

I like that language Squirrel. In your last post, are you talking about the free consult with the attorney? I told him up front that I didn't think it made sense financially to litigate this, but wanted to get a feeling for how we stood legally--especially with regard to there not being a warranty, which is a huge sticking point with DH.

Yes. I was just talking about those 'free' consult type things, in general. Bait. Some even try the scare tactics once they get that far in the door.

Do you think you'll go see and sit in her furniture? (Don't sip any iced tea on the patio, lol -- too many CSI's! : )

I don't think she's going to be offering us any iced tea anytime soon. LOL. But I see your point.

I'm still obsessing over telling her exactly how I feel. Grrrr.

Meg, Please don't send her any more emails AT ALL until you speak with an attorney. Take the attorney's advice and go from there. Please.

I agree, it's gone too far already.

Another thing, Meg. You've said a few times that 'no warranty' is a no-go for you and dh. She's already said there is no warranty. So what's the point of pursuing the remakes? You need to come to terms with that point and work from there. If, by some slim chance, you get them to claim they will warrant it -- it'll likely be just lip service to get your cooperation to proceed on their own terms. They may not even be around in ten years moreless acknowledge any faults on their part in the future.

Funny you should mention the warranty, Squirrel. I'm not thrilled that there is no warranty but, as you say, even if they did agree to warrant their product, the warranty would only be as good as the company--which means it's pretty worthless.

I think that there's very little chance that the company will be able to make the furniture the right way so I think we're going to go ahead with the replacements but only after we agree on certain things in writing. I want to be the person to determine whether it's of comparable quality, etc.

So I'm working on that email with the last paragraph clarifying that we're not being billed for additional shipping or for other things like the time taken to resolve this. Recognize that language?

You should just stay firm with wanting your money back. You will probably not get these pieces until next spring and have the same problems all over again. No warranty is a little crazy considering you have spent good money for them. Did she disclose that when you were going to order? Did you ask about it?

We're away right now so I'm not working on the email. DH and I think it's necessary to send it, otherwise we look like we're rejecting her proposed replacement set for no good reason. Once she replies to the email and tells us that the lounge chairs are still going to be uncomfortable, that the finish will not match anything else, and that there's no warranty, we'll have ample reason for not going ahead with the replacement and insisting on a refund instead. We may try to negotiate something but that still bothers me.

Anyway, no news for now.

She gets not a penny from me.

And maybe that's why she makes it so difficult for you. Trying to wear you out so you want to settle. It just really irks me to think of giving her a couple thousand so she can recoup her end (minus the extraordinary markup) and you get stuck with a big bill for nothing. She's got herself covered and nothing else.