nothing that I am aware of

Thanks for the reply, Oberon! Even though it wasn't very encouraging. I found some custom wood window people who are going to try to help match/repair/rebuild the original windows and our architect has an energy consultant who will analyze the overall code compliance of the whole remodel (insulation, lighting, etc.) to see if we have any options other than double pane. One window guy mentioned laminated glass instead of double pane for a "single" pane solution, but I understand it's very expensive. Wood it be total overkill?

I guess I am pretty much alone out here not liking double pane windows. There's something about them that just sort of bugs me. Most of the nicely made windows from companies like Marvin or Andersen look fine and come in handsome styles, and they certainly seem to offer lots of technical advantages for energy efficiency, comfort, functional hardware, etc. But driving by a house with double pane windows it looks like the windows are actually made of plastic, with a kind of "bow" effect, which I take it is some sort of optical trick effected by the reflection within a reflection because of the two glass surfaces. Also, the aluminum spacers between the panes seem like, well, a fairly significant cheap-metal element in a very expensive window. And these new-fangled double pane replacement windows just don't seem like they're meant to last very long. Fifteen, twenty years, max? And then what, you have to pop them out as a whole unit and buy more whole units again? And I don't get what's so bad about having to paint or "maintain" the outside of a window. You have to paint the outside of the house anyway.

I did find one guy in Maine who feels similarly. Here's part of his blog about windows.

Here is a link that might be useful: Think carefully about windows

We just did the Marvin replacement windows and love them - while I agree with you and prefer all wood, we didn't want to paint and the Marvins do look a little better than the normal vinyl. They look great from the inside.

Marvin makes the single pane, all wood and has historical glass if you are willing to pay $$$. We didn't price those out as we went with the insulated ones as we need them in the winter.

http://www.marvin.com/default.aspx?page=Ultimate_Double_Hung.grilles

They also have alternatives to wood storms and other options to make them more energy efficient.

Thanks, pcjs! If we're required to get replacement windows I'm guessing they'll be Marvins. We haven't priced out historical glass/single pane/all wood windows yet either - the cost may be so shocking that we'll be relieved that the manufactured double pane windows are available. I'm just trying to get through the sadness of losing original windows beforehand so that by the time it has to happen I'm as over it as possible.

I really appreciate the knowledge and encouragement of this forum, thanks.

good morning Jan,

Laminated glass is not an energy product. It is very expensive and would add nothing to the overall energy performance of your windows.

You are obviously unhappy over losing the original windows; have you considered restoring them rather than replacement? Although to be honest windows made in the late 40's tended to be a good bit less quality than those made a few decades earlier - with exceptions of course.

I can appreciate why you like the simplicity of the single pane wood window, just as I appreciate (and often agree with) the desire of many folks to restore rather than to replace their existing windows. But, despite comments from the restoration industry that restored windows with storms are every bit as energy efficient as the newer windows with all the "bells and whistles", that is simply not the case.

Ultimately, restoring older single-pane windows or installing single pane windows is an indulgence that has to be taken as such. My impression from your posts makes me think that you see it that way as well. And while I am not suggesting that certain "indulgences" are not acceptable - again, I often agree with restoring older windows - we have to understand potential the trade-offs involved in doing so.

Relatively few dual pane windows made today have aluminum spacer systems. The majority of dual pane windows use one form or another of "warm-edge" technology spacer systems. These warm edge spacers range from stainless steel through completely metal-free systems. All of the newer systems are much better than what was used in dual pane windows even 15-20 years ago. Differences between the best systems used today and those used 20 years ago are such that there simply is no comparison.

Like most new products, there was a learning curve involved in developing dual pane window systems. While many folks do have concerns about longevity of dual pane systems - and very justified concerns in many cases - even the less-advanced systems in use (older and newer) generally have historical failure rates of less than 20% based on the glass system - which is where most people's concerns seem to focus. While the better, newer, systems often have failure rates in the tenth of a percent range (or better) and those failures that do occur with the better, newer, systems are almost always related to human error somewhere in the process.

And while there is no question that a 20% failure rate in any product is totally and completely unacceptable, one would think that there is a 110% failure rate of dual glass windows based on what some people in the restoration world claim.

Sometime last year (give or take) the California department of energy published a document that stated that replacing all of the single pane and less efficient dual pane windows in the state with state-of-the-art dual and triple pane windows would result in energy savings equivalent the energy output of two (or maybe three I forget) new power plants  and at a cost significantly less than the combined costs of building and operating those plants (over a 20 year period if I recall correctly). Thus my assertion that restoring windows is an indulgence  one that I often agree with  but still with the understanding that there is a trade-off involved versus replacement with an energy performance state-of-the-art replacement.

Anyway, sorry so long  and I did tend to veer off track a bit  but ultimately making sure that whatever fills the hole in your wall is operating at its peak efficiency is going to benefit you. And, if you choose the replacement option donÂt forget the quality of the installation  that is so very important!

Have a great weekend!

Thank you, Oberon, your post is thoughtful and helpful! I'm not accepting any apologies for the length, every point is very valuable. It's great to be able to think the whole window thing through with experts and people with real experience. Yes, I'm heartsick about losing any of our original windows. We have a small 40's ranch-style cottage with character not often seen in our area, the house was built by a cabinet-maker we've heard, so there is a fair amount of custom woodwork (ceiling beams, molding, wainscotting, kitchen cabinets). I'm really afraid of ripping away some of this character if we are not careful about matching/reproducing the windows, at least.

And yes, I know it's the right thing to do for the environment to insulate all the buildings in the state so that they don't require as much energy, but it seems a little wacky to be "double paning" and sealing every single opening in the house when we live with the doors and windows wide open most months of the year anyway (we'd never dream of air conditioning and only turn the heat on for a couple of hours in the evening 2 months of the year). We pay a lot for real estate here because of the mild weather, it's too bad we couldn't get some credit for low energy usage for temperature control.

Well, thanks for listening. We'll see how the code compliance and dollar amount factors stack up. Meanwhile I'm still shopping for companies or carpenters who do reproduction windows. I'm weary of the replacement window reps who keep saying we don't have any alternatives.

Hi, we are in northern CA as well and it sounds like you are in the milder area, may be in-land of south bay of SF Bay or a bit in the Sacramento area?

I grew up in farm houses and truly love the old wood windows, especially those will real divided lites. The smell and the look brought back much good memories. I had to sand and paint them and fix whatever wood that broke, loved doing them.

If you cannot find anyone locally to customize your new windows to the exact design, and you are willing to expend the resources to do it right, it will help to contact a good local mom and pop Marvin dealer. If you happen to be in the SF Bay area, I can recommend the one we used. No harm talking to them.

When we were doing ours 4 years ago, my wife had several custom designs that I thought challenging but Marvin had 0-trouble doing them. I was surprised and hurried to talk her out of it because of architectural match issue :-). Now I wish we had solved the architectural match issue.

Marvin supposedly has done historical restoration work and they can even produce old style wavy glass if you want to go that far.

I do not notice any strange wavy look on our low-e dbl-pane windows except those with tempered glass. The tempered ones have that strange look. All our regular glass dbl-pane look "normal" from the outside.

Good luck with your research!

Thanks so much for your advice, calbay03! And yes, we're at the southern end of the peninsula, north of San Jose. I'd be grateful for the name of a local Marvin dealer. You're absolutely right, no harm talking with them.

The plastic-like look I've noticed with double pane windows isn't exactly "wavy", it's more like a very subtle "bowed" look. It gives me the sense that the windows are made of acrylic or polyethylene sheets instead of panes of real glass. When I point it out to others *as we're driving by an example* I get some agreement, but most people say they've never noticed this plastic-y look of double pane glazing on their own. I feel like I must be a little nutty, but I can't stop seeing it. I finally got one custom window guy to concede that it's the effect of having a double set of reflections from the two panes. I almost feel like starting a thread just for this observation to see if anybody else in the window world feels the same way.

There is an outfit called Renaissance here is Southern California that only makes custom wood windows and doors, and most of the ones I saw in the showroom were single glazed.

As far as I know you can "restore" all your old wood windows. If you have an addition you might be stuck with the dual pane windows in the addition but you can just "repair" all the others. There's an outfit called, I think, woodenwindow.com with a shop in Oakland that does wood windows for restoration.

I live in the East Bay and I find the energy savings story pretty dubious myself. I do find the architectural loss to replacement windows to be rather sad. Too many old houses have big slabs of glass were they once had stylish windows.

Thanks californian and jan9, I've checked Renaissance web site for info -- everything helps just to see what the possibilities are. It actually looks like we'll be using the Wooden Window folks on our project. We've exchanged emails and photos and now our architect is talking with them. They've been really helpful and more to the point, sympathetic with our worries about manufactured replacement windows. We still have to learn about costs, which could be a big deal, but now I know there's hope.

You're right, jan9, we'll probably be stuck with dual pane for any new windows we're installing, and we're installing a bunch because there are new exterior walls involved in the remodel. I just feel like I owe it to the house (really just a cottage) to do everything I can to keep things authentic.

This forum is a godsend.

Hi jan_s, the shop is in San Jose and it is called "The Screen Shop". They were very patient, very helpful and always willing to provide information.

If Wooden Windows is in Oakland and can do it all in-house locally, that will be an ideal situation!

Good luck!