When using a private label or builder's window, you're getting a window that has reduced features and benefits.

In my community, the builder thinks and advertises that he's building an upscale home. The fact is, it's an entry level home IMO because he's using single hung windows and entry doors from HD. Single hung windows are economy windows! A $117 door at HD is an economy door!

Be weary of anything "builder grade". It's usually entry level and poor performance.

Check out Trimline Windows.

Michael

I totally agree with Mike. The idea of buying builder's grade anything is usually terrible. We pulled out builder's grade cabinets in my last house, and hated the builder's grade windows.

Also - builder's grade also means builder's price. So as a homeowner you'll never be able to get a builder's price on them.

The discount I get on prodcuts can at times be up to 50% less than what the most savvy homeowner could get.

builders grade is a mistake. in fact, i think builders grade anything is a mistake. when people want to save money it usually comes out of the window budget. my area is made up of multi-million dollar homes...most of them with builders grade windows. you can really tell a quality product when you see it. unfortunately you can also tell an inferior product as well.

Windows is a bad area to "go cheap". A bad choice here will cost you money in the long run. Many good manufacturers offer a lower cost unit, with perhaps less options and sizes available at a considerable savings. And you still get a quality name brand product. Check out Andersen's 200 Series, Pella's Proline, and Marvin Integrity. Check out the higher end units as well. Then buy the best product you can afford. Remember that initial price is only 1 part of a products true cost. Better products will cost less to maintain, last longer, and typically be more efficient over a longer period of time, making their true cost a real bargain.

Thanks for the additional posts. I am looking into the following windows: Pozzi, Eagle, Hurd, Semco. I think these have gotten fairly good reviews here and from other homeowners I've talked to. Mike35, thanks for the other suggestions. I will check out their websites to learn more about those specific lines.

I don't mean to contradict or argue with anyone but I'll tell you my own opinion of some of the windows suggested above for what it might be worth.

Andersen 200 Series - Anderson makes the 200 TiltWash and the 200 Narrowline. Both only offer between-the-glass mullions or snap-in grilles. Both have an epoxy painted sash (no cladding) The Narrowline only comes in white and the Tiltwash in white and sandstone. Oddly, the cheaper Narrowline has an acceptable sloped sill but the Tiltwash sill is flat allowing water to roll over it and against the building finish causing serious water problems. Both are "Builder" grade windows and should be excluded from any homeowner's list of windows. The 400 series Tiltwash is not a bad window if you don't mind an old-fashioned PVC compression jamb liner and a low profile applied mullion and only 4 colors but the sash are still epoxy painted which makes this a low-grade "Builder's" window in my opinion. The Woodwright is fully clad and therefore the only Andersen window I would consider but because of its higher cost there are many competitors equal or better than it is with more features and options.

Pella ProLine - This is the bottom line Pella aluminum clad window with the limited feature choices usually associated with this level of window but it has some unusual features. It is essentially a replacement window with nailing fins that snap up into place if they are needed. These fins are unnecessarily difficult to seal in the field. In my opinion the ProLine should not be on any homeowner's list of windows.

Pozzi - This is Jeld-Wen's top of the line wood and aluminum-clad wood window. It is well designed with many options and features and is similar to MarvinÂs Ultimate Double Hung and not in the same league as the others mentioned here. It has been renamed as the "Custom" line of Jeld-Wen windows. A more appropriate Jeld-Wen window for this discussion would be their middle line window, Norco, recently renamed the "Siteline". Caradco is the line below it which is now named "Tradition".

Eagle - this has been a good profitable window company that has been owned by a less profitable company that was not willing to invest in them. What I loved about them was that they just tried harder than anyone else. Now that Andersen has bought them (a year ago) and made them a division of their company Eagle should become an even better window manufacturer. I particularly like the fact that they will put an aluminum clad sash (with simulated divided light aluminum mullions) in a wood frame for a great cost/maintenance compromise with factory installed trim that can be into a window opening without further trim work. Andersen considers this their move into the upscale market long dominated by aluminum clad windows, their advertising claims notwithstanding.

Mightyanvil,
Thanks for your post!! Very helpful in narrowing down my window choices. You mentioined Pozzi, Norco and Caradco. So Pozzi sounds like a top-notch window choice. What about Norco and Caradco? Are they "low builders-grade, don't put them on a homeowner's window list"? Should I stay away from them with a 10 foot pole?
And do you have any feedback on Semco or Hurd?
Thanks again!

Interesting take, 'anvil. Always good to hear multiple views.
I did want to correct a few points, though.
Andersen's 200 & 400 Series Tilt Wash & Narrowlines have a flexicron finish on the exterior of the sash. It's part of their Permashield system, and has been in the field for over 40 years with tremendous success. Andersen is one of the only manufacturers that doesn't require exterior cleaning to maintain their warranty, especially in hostile environments, like coastal areas.
The Narrowline is also available in Sandtone, and for years was made in Terratone, so if your project is big enough, you can still get them in that color.
The 200 Series Tilt Wash was designed to compete with hollow vinyl windows, hence the shallow sill. It is still pitched, and does not pose any risk from water. The frame cladding is a vacuumed formed piece, with no seams or welds for water to enter. If installed properly, water has no effect on them, and the integral flange actually aids in water mitigation.
The 400 Series Tilt Wash grilles are high definition grilles. The old flat profile exterior is history.
The Woodwright is actually a 2 piece sash, with wood on the inside and a composite material called Fibrex on the exterior, with a vinyl cap stock co-extruded during production. It uses the same frame as the Tilt Wash, but offers better sight lines and more options.
The Pella Proline's nail flange don't pose much of an issue, and Pella offers flashing tape to help ease installation.
The Pozzi is a step up from the budget windows we've discussed, but I wouldn't put them ahead of Pella's Architectural line, Andersen's 400 Series or Woodwright, or Marvin or Eagle. A good product, yes. Great product...?
As for the purchase of Eagle by Andersen, both are still operated as seperate companies for now. There has been very little integration of the two, except for where Eagle has little or no market presence. Eagle does offer tremendous lists of options, and they only offer the one product line. Andersen does not consider this a move into the high end market, having already established themselves there with their current product lines. This was more of a,"Someone's going to buy them, so it may as well be us" kind of move.
Sorry for the long message.
But there are hundreds of companies making windows out there. Builder's series, especially non-branded ones, are generally low cost, low option units. That was the purpose of my lower market recommendations. Determine what options you're looking for, (Divided lights, or grilles between the glass, color choices, glass options, etc).
Once you have selected the options you like or want, it's easier to narrow down the choices, and pursue some pricing.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and value is in the wallet of the buyer.
Don't limit yourself to our opinions here. Check them out, and make the best choice for yourself.

Mike
Some of your points are valid and I appreciate them but I think you misunderstood some of the points I made.

Andersen doesn't publish much about their Flexicron paint but I assume it either uses epoxy or urethane to increase its performance outdoors. Anecdotal claims are interesting but until I see an independent study showing that Flexicron paint is in the same performance league as aluminum cladding I will assume it is not.

My warning that the Andersen 200 tilt Wash has a sill that "is flat allowing water to roll over it and against the building finish causing serious water problems" was intended to point out the possibility of water flowing over the front edge of the sill and then (because there is no drip) back under the sill against the building finish where it can get behind some common cladding systems in spite of any sealant that might be there. I have seen this problem in the field on a large scale with the eventual solution being the addition of flashing under the bottom nailing fin and extending it downward and over the second course of clapboard siding so that water only passed behind one course instead of all of them. Adding a drip under the sill nosing was judged to be a better technical solution but was considered too unsightly. Rather than suffer such problems, I recommend this particular window model be avoided.

The Pella ProLine as well as the entire Pella aluminum-clad line has a continuous seam between the nail fin and the frame and gaps in the fin at the corners. Pella readily admits that the only reason for these joints and gaps is to allow the fin to be folded for easier shipping. I recommend choosing integral unbroken cladding and fins and thereby avoiding the need to seal joints and gaps with PellaÂs butyl/foil tape.

Regarding my comment about Andersen considering buying Eagle to a move into the upscale market, I was just repeating what I thought Andersen had meant by their public announcement:
"Eagle Window & Door is a great strategic fit for our company," said Jim Humphrey, president and chief executive officer of Andersen Corporation. "We now have another important piece in the puzzle we are building to make Andersen a more complete supplier, especially in the high-end, residential new construction segment of the market."

The following details are:
Andersen 200 TiltWash sill
Pella ProLine jamb
Pella ProLine installation diagram

Mightyanvil,
Re your note about Pella's folding fin for easier shipping. So is this a bad feature? Semco also has this feature and of course the salespeople tout it as a big advantage because there's less chance of damage to the fin during shipping. Of course, this is mostly to their advantage and not necessarily the consumer's, if as you say there are more potential problems during and after installation.

I have to say your solution sounds a bit extreme. I've put these windows on houses with the ocean in the backyard, and even after driving rain, have not encountered the problem you describe. And I've used everything from shingle siding, to clapboard, to vinyl. I'd be more inclined to evaluate the installation more than the product.
And that really is the key. Having an installer familiar with the product he is working with. It's easy for one person to claim a product is not good, when another can just as easily rave about it.
So the lesson to learn, is to select a product and builder that meets your needs.
As for the flexicron finish, I'll let track records and warranties speak for themselves. The Andersen finish has lasted 40 years in the field. And again, it's the only finish that doesn't require maintenance in coastal environments to maintain the warranty. That's a true testiment. No aluminum clad company will make such a claim.
While I'm not a personal fan of the Pella, it still is a good window in the hands of a qualified installer.

Mike

If you install a thick enough horizontal trim board under the sill of the Andersen TiltWash 200 and notch the bottom of it to receive the exterior finish material, and add flashing behind it (integrated with the sill flashing) and form a proper sealant joint with a backer rod, this window would be acceptable. (see detail)

My objections to this window are:
1) No one ever installs it properly even when the details are included in the contract documents and this can eventually leads to water infiltration behind the exterior finish. (I got hurt on my first house design and I saw many others get hurt far worse when I was asked to investigate a similar problem on a huge condominium complex)
2) I think a narrow trim board looks absolutely awful under a double hung window ... the 60's are over ... I hope.
3) The trim adds unnecessary cost to a "tight budget" window
4) It would be a better solution to add a deeper "sub-sill" in the same configuration and allow it to run out under the jamb trim in the traditional manner but you could probably buy a window with a conventional sill for that cost.

You hit the nail on the head when you said they don't install them properly. That really is the key. As I said, I've done many projects, from houses, to condos, to commercial buildings, and have nothing but good experiences to report. I work throughout New England, which can be a pretty hostile environment.
But the key is certainly proper installation, for any product. But that is a builder issue, not a product issue.

Mightyanvil,
Any additional comments about the folding fin feature? Were you speaking specifically about Pella's problems with it or with the feature in general, i.e. applicable to any manf. who offers this feature?
Thanks!

I suspect all clad windows require sealing the applied fin in the field these days with the exception of certain PVC clad windows like Anderson's 200 TiltWash shown above.

You should seal all nailing fins. Keep in mind, the nailing fins are just an installation aid. They are not meant to be the only means by which the unit is installed, and are not considered a flashing, or water management tool, although some help better than others. They need to be properly flashed and sealed. This point can't be stressed enough. Grace Construction Products Vycor works very well, but there are other good products out there.

Here is a link that might be useful: Grace Products

W R Grace products work well for sill and jamb flashing but can be a problem when used to seal the fin-to-frame seam of a clad window because it puts the edge of the asphalt membrane well into the trim-to-frame joint where it can come in contact with the cladding/trim sealant. Many popular modern sealants contain plasticizers that can soften the asphalt, even liquify it so that it drains out of the joint at a lower point.

Butyl (StraightFlash, SmartFlash) would be a better choice if you need to seal the fin on a clad nail-fin window but you should always put some beads of the sealant you want to use on the sticky side of the flashing a week in advance to see if one reacts with the other.

I was taught that butyl should be compressed between two non-pourous (metal or glass) materials but that was before pressure-sensitive adhesive tapes were marketed as permanent seals. It is still true, however, that the non-pourous surfaces must be cleaned with a solvent to remove anything oily, even fingerprints (gloves required).

All self-adhering flashing must be rolled with a small rolling tool, not just to get air out but to insure the initial seal. A little friction to warm the tape can sometines help as well on pourous surfaces. For flexible self-adhering flashings the AAMA sets the minimum overlap of a seam or joint at 2 inches. Unfortunately that is not possible at a nail-fin seam without exposing the flashing.

http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/8e9c21219b768010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

http://www.fortifiber.com/fortifacts_product_compatibility.htm

http://bahrr.proboards32.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Building&thread=1144956723&page=1#1147122878

http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26688&page=14

http://www.aamanet.org/mp/XXX-XX_D2b_4-4-06.pdf

Has anyone heard of General windows. That's the actual name of the brand the builders are using around here. I have only seen them with grilles in between the glass, exactly what i don't want. I want DSL. I think I'm using all of these terms correctly but not sure. Anyhow, I wonder if General windows make windows with DSL.
thanks,
bridget