I don't think that requesting working ovens makes the OP a scammer.

If they had the same ones she would take them. But they don't have the same ones and now she has to pay $500 she wasn't expecting to pay.

I DO think she should pay it because the ovens are better than what she had IF they won't split the difference with her, but I don't think that requesting them make good is too much to ask really. It is an unfortunate situation for all concerned really (including the store).

The OP is in no way a scammer and the suggestion that she is is really offensive. She bought the floor models in good faith and the installers damaged them. At this point I can see both sides. The new floor models are an upgrade and apparently the $480 is not an unreasonable price for the upgrade. On the other hand, the store could show some good will and waive the money. I believe it's perfectly reasonable for the OP to press to get the $480 waived but to be willing to pay it if she can't. It's still a much better deal than just taking a refund and having to start from scratch.

Can certainly understand your being p****d. However, we seem to live in a world of morons and illogical thought processes and I think I'm in the pay the 480.00, get an oven upgrade and move on with my life. This has probably already taken more than 480.00 worth of toll on you stress/anger wise. It's not worth it.

Oh my, I'm so torn on this one! When I read this post I was seeing red by the time I finished with it and am ready to call them myself and chew them out! But...after reading all the replies, I think you have 3 good options
1. See if they'll split it and/or give you an extended warranty
2. See if they'll do an extended warranty and pay the full amount
3. Just pay the full and be done with this nightmare

I'm all for standing your ground, and I know if I was in your shoes, they would have a hard time getting me to fork over any more money so I'll stand behind you no matter what you choose =)

I don't suppose you can pay the $480 and make them pay for a different installer....

:/

It does suck. It's the insult more than the money that is irksome. I guess I'd negotiate the best I could and accept the $480 if all else failed. Then I'd write a nasty internet review after installation to make myself feel slightly avenged.

Good luck!

The OP is in no way a scammer and the suggestion that she is is really offensive.

No, I read GreenDesigns' comment as referring to the way the retailer would perceive her. And it's a good point. Right now they see her as a wronged customer looking for satisfaction, but if they see her as trying to turn the situation to her advantage, they may withdraw their offer or otherwise play hardball. It doesn't have to make sense. As deedles rightly points out, we live in an era of illogical thought processes.

They should never have whined about their costs--although, ironically, I think they brought the issue up with good intentions, hoping to show the OP that they weren't trying to take advantage of her. If they had offered her choices that included repair, refund, or an upgrade at "half" the cost (insert real percentage), it would have sounded much better and she would've been much happier.

I interpreted the "scammer" comment the same way as Marcolo, it is how she would be perceived. I didnt read it as an accusation by GreenDesigns. They initially offered the newer, upgrade ovens for $800 more. Now they have come down to $480 more. I think that is a good compromise and honestly don't see the point in battling it out for a deeper discount.

I bet if a new customer walked in off the street and wanted to purchase those floor model ovens they would pay more than what the store is asking for ($480 + the steeply discounted price of previous generation oven floor model). Really, this is a GOOD deal and the best of a bad situation. It's a very fair offer, and much better than the other options.

I think at some point the desire to punish the crap out of the store for the actions of one incompetent installer needs to end. I can't imagine that all the anger and vitriol being generated is good for anyone who is involved in the situation. If we step back for a second and remember that it was one guy who screwed up ... who made a really bad judgement call ... but no one was injured, then would that put it in perspective?

This wasn't an intentional act of anger or an attempt to hurt anyone ... The installer made a boneheaded decision. I don't understand the desire to "make them pay".

I agree with those who say maybe press for a small discount or extended warranty, or just pay the extra money for the upgraded ovens.

In general the need to Punish one who has displeased one has become pervasive in our society. The installers were F---tards and they have probably been fired or taken off the store's list of installer, they aren't baby killers.

I hope all of those who are recommending it conduct themselves without flaw at their jobs, without fail.

Are we talking punishment or compensation. I lean towards compensation. Time is money and I believe that pooh should be compensated for not only her time but for all of the aggravation and lost sleep. Tami

I think the compensation comes in that she still gets much more expensive ovens than she is paying for.

She didn't request an upgrade for no cost. And her time, the wear and tear on her kitchen, and the expense of having to travel to shop for a new oven is worth money too. She's not chopped liver.

We've all seen manufacturers replace appliances and the owner got the benefit of some type of upgrade. It's not uncommon. The difference here is the damage is on the dealer. And the only reason to care what he thinks (providing he'll ever remember) has to do with service, should that be needed. But that goes through the manufacturer and sometimes there's an option.

I agree there are many illogical things going on today. This seems straightforward. The dealer's guys messed up and he should make good on it. It's the same brand, just a season newer.

Everyone has different negotiation skills and the full spectrum of options has been presented here. I don't think there's anything wrong with stating what you want.

Ultimately, the OP must feel her way and will decide on how to proceed. Clearly we all wish her the best for getting it done, installed and moving on in a way that works best for her.

I would pay the $480 and be done. If I followed you, the actual amount should have been $800 and they dropped it to $480. The new model is more expensive to begin with.

Being in sales, had I wanted $480 from you I would have focused on the increased value of the new oven and asked for payment with that in mind.

Instead your salesperson didn't edit well and went off on a tangent about costs. Those costs are not important. What is important is you are going to get a better oven.

I would pay it and move on.

It's the same brand, just a season newer.

Right, and if someone were to trash your last-year's model car, good luck demanding that your insurance company buy you a brand new one.

She is entitled to repair, refund or exact replacement. That's it. I don't understand why people keep treating that statement like it's matter for opinion or discussion. It isn't. It's a matter for learning, understanding and mature acceptance. There are many points that may be discussed here, but the law is not one of them--not unless you want to go Googling the Restatement of Torts or local case law and argue the merits citing Westlaw.

I side with Eyegirlie on this..in that same order. If they say no to #1 or #2, you can just pay them the $480 and move on. Doesn't hurt to play ball.
Oh...and I'd make sure there are different installers. Hopefully those 2 goofs are gone.

The salesperson is either an idiot or really does not like Mr. OM. SP took what was an internal conversation about recouping costs and passed it on to you which is what has made you angrier about the situation. It did not change the situation. If SP had pointed out that the new ovens were worth $XXX more and it was a bargain, although an unforeseen expense, to get them as an upgrade you would probably have paid the $480 and just come here to talk about the great ovens you got for an additional $480. Salesperson? Not much of one. Not the OM fault, that is just business and facts (businesses try to make money). This is the fault of your "salesperson".

I'd make sure there are different installers

You know, even though it's unlikely they'd send the same people, it would be a good idea to specify this before saying yes to any offer.

SP took what was an internal conversation about recouping costs and passed it on to you which is what has made you angrier about the situation.

It's amazing how important communications are, and how often companies manage them poorly or thoughtlessly. Reminds me of how the president of Capital has popped in on a couple of threads in the Appliances Forum. If you stepped back and looked at what he was doing, and focused on what he was trying to say, it actually turns out he was attempting to deliver good service. But the way he said it? Oy! That's why PR people are always trying to lunge for the microphone.

She's entitled to what she can get. This stuff is all negotiable. Anyone here can state what she's entitled to but that's not the law or the truth. Just an opinion.

Anyone here can state what she's entitled to but that's not the law or the truth. Just an opinion.

Some opinions are informed, while others are not.

I think she's gotten some good advice to get what she can and chalk up her irritating conversation to bad PR skills.

I am not saying that the OP or Roc is promoting this but

I think "She is entitled to what she can get" starts to sound an awful lot like "entitlement" to me.

People often get *more* than they are entitled to simply by being a pain in the A$$. Anybody who's ever worked in a restaurant knows this. Comp them, get them outta there and pray they never come back.

It's becoming an Art Form: make any mistake, displease me in any way, and I will apply a monetary penalty.

"She is entitled to what she can get" may be the truth, but it is not the law.

It's not about getting all she can... It's about getting what she paid for, and what, in selling her the original oven and the installation service, they agreed to... a working oven in brand new condition.

She's been without an oven for weeks now, and had to fight for everything they've 'given' her up until this point, which I know, is stressful. This is not what having and paying for a new kitchen is all about. They supplied the people who messed up. They are responsible for the hassle and the expense. Acting in good faith and everything that means standing behind a motto that says: "Quality you can count on, Service you can trust," they should be bending over backward (and quickly, but that ship sailed) to make this right... Not nit-picking over $480, even though it is their legal right.

This is on their website about installation services:

Why Choose (our) Installation

Professional
Factory trained certified installers
Licensed
Bonded and insured

It is not free. She paid for it to avoid problems. Makes me glad we 'took the risk' and picked up our own appliances.

The auto insurance example was used, saying that only the amount to buy an exact model would be paid, not the next year's improved model... When cars of ours have been totaled, the insurance company searched in our area to see what it would take to buy a car of that same model and condition (prior to damage). Even gave us a listing of the cars. If the price for available cars of that model and condition was more than was originally paid for the car, the award was the higher amount. They also pay, on top of the cost of the car, 'pain and suffering' for those not at fault. So if we go by that example, she's not getting her due.

I don't think I misread what she wrote...she was not offered her money back....she was offered store credit. That is NOT the same thing. At the very least she should be put back in the position she was in before this all started, with her money returned and the freedom to use it at whatever appliance store she chooses.

Then she would be able to decide if the newer oven is worth it to her for the extra charge including the risk of an install mishap rerun, or if she can find another alternative elsewhere.

Palimpsest, I didn't say she should go to the tv station, but threatening to do so can be a bargaining chip if she wants to continue to bargain.

But how can anyone assign a monetary value to being inconvenienced? You can't, and that's part of why remodeling is stressful.

Look, the installers made a mistake. They exhibited bad judgement. But they did not act with MALICE. Why does there need to be punishment? The store is doing what they can to remedy the problem - they tried to repair the original ovens at no cost to her. The repairs they performed were not acceptable (to the customer, no one has said the ovens failed to work, only that they do not have the same appearance because the doors aren't centered and after the damage the OP is concerned about their long term safety).

So the store offers the chance to get newer ovens with additional features for a VERY SMALL charge.

Pain and suffering don't enter into the equation here. Yes, it's unfortunate. But does everyone deserve monetary compensation every time things don't go as planned? If the delivery of an appliance is late, how much for that? Do we charge by the minute, the hour?

Frustrating - yes. But not something we can charge for, and not worth the negative energy and bad feelings we create by trying to exact revenge or "evening the score".

Of course they tried to repair them at "no cost to her"...they damaged them! It was their responsibility to fix the problem that they caused, especially because she paid them for an intsillation they did not adequately complete. She has done nothing wrong and it's not her fault they do not have the exact same model they messed up. It's now their responsibility to take care of the problem, no matter what that entails if they cannot correct the problem they caused.

Thanks for all your responses and your thoughtful opinions. I've been reading them all day on my phone but haven't had a chance to respond as I've been driving my children back and forth all day (put over 95 miles on my car today!!).

Gosh, I have a lot to respond to and not sure where to start. The first thing that comes to mind is that I've found is really strange that the floor models ovens that I had were described by others as being used, not new and worth significantly less than new ovens because they were floor models. Now I'm being offered another set of floor models and I'm seeing them described as being new and worth significantly more than what I had before. I guess I'm finding that somewhat humorous since the ovens are exactly the same EXCEPT these floor models are the newer model. If my other ovens were worth significantly less than new ovens because of their floor model status, then so are these ovens. Both were taken out of the box, installed in a cabinet for display without ever having power hooked up and certainly were never used for cooking. Both come with the full factory warranty. Not sure why I'm bringing that up other than I've found it odd that they are perceived so differently when, in reality, they are the same.

Anyway, I was really angry yesterday after getting the message from the salesman. As I said before, I was fine until it got to the part about the expenses they've incurred. While I realize that this whole situation has been a total PITA for all involved and none of this was intentional, I'm the injured party and really wasn't in the mood to hear about their tales of woe. Being ticked off is exactly why I didn't want to deal with this yesterday because I didn't want to think emotionally and wasn't in a place where I could count on thinking logically. Hope that makes sense.

After reading all the comments on this thread, the one that really stuck with me was from jerzeegirl who said "A good negotiation is when everyone feels that they have won." Only I've always heard it said that a good negotiation is one where nobody is happy because both parties feel the other got the better deal. Been chewing on that one all day and pretty much came to the conclusion that I'd take the floor model ovens and pay the $480. Do I think I should have to? No. Does the store think I'm getting a fabulous deal? Yes. Not a particularly happy resolution of either of us but . . . . no resolution will make us both happy. So I'd pretty much made my decision but still felt some of those "I'm really ticked about this" feelings.

So this afternoon I get a call from the salesman wanting to know if I'd made a decision. Told him how ticked off I was and had a chance to vent. Told him that I was still thinking about what to do because paying the $480 still gave me a sour stomach. He said he'd pass the info along to the Operations Manager and would call me back.

Late this afternoon I get a call from the Operations Manager. Turns out that some of you wonderful GWers called the company to complain and ask if this situation was true and he read the threads on this site. (BTW, Hi Mr. OM!) Bless your hearts and thanks for the wonderful support!!!!! He was very nice but I think a little annoyed at some of the things he read here. Said that I'd said some things that weren't true. Please point those out to me. One "untruth" was the offer of a 5 year warranty on my current ovens. Maybe he didn't offer the extended warranty, but I was offered the extended warranty. It's not untrue if that's what I was told. The issue was communication. He says he never told the salesman to pass along the fact that they have incurred expenses during because of this. Truthfully, I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the salesman. I feel like I have gotten outstanding service from him and I think marcolo got it right when he said

"If you stepped back and looked at what he was doing, and focused on what he was trying to say, it actually turns out he was attempting to deliver good service."

Leaving that information in a message rather than in person or over the phone probably wasn't the best move. Certainly didn't help my attitude about the whole thing.

We agreed that he has done everything he can to help resolve this issue and that some things could have been handled better (like the whole "you pay for the parts" offer). With jerzeegirl's helpful words to think about all day, we agreed on doing the floor models for $480. Still not happy about that but . . . . . . That really is where everyone's opinion and advice has been most helpful. It obviously isn't a very clear cut issue or this whole thread wouldn't have brought forth a variety of opinions.

Also want to point out that I purchased all of my kitchen appliances from this store and have zero complaints about any of the service or employees with the exception of this situation with the ovens. They are going to install the new ovens and I'm pretty sure they will be handled with kid gloves and everyone will heave a huge sigh of relief when they are safely installed.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for all the help and advice during this whole situation!!!!!

Oh, one more thing!! What have I learned from this? Get everything in writing and TAKE PICTURES!! No one wants to be accused of causing damage that they didn't cause. Not me, not the store.

Gotta go now. Still have about 7 more miles to put on the car before my day is done!

Poohpup-I haven't participated in this with any advice or opinions, but after reading through this entire thread, including the previous ones, I just wanted to say that I think you have handled this entire incident (accident, event, WHATEVER) with a great deal of grace.

I hope you truly love your new oven, and that everything from here out goes off without a hitch.

That's awesome that people called from here! Let's all remember that for future reference.

Glad you have some conclusion that you're able to live with...

leela4, thank you so much! That is so kind of you to say and is much appreciated. I try to be an honest, kind, reasonable person, I really do, and sometimes it felt like I was failing miserably.

rhome410, thanks for everything. I just hope they arrive safely and work.

deedles, I thought it was beyond awesome that people called! The OM told me that four different people either called or wrote and wanted to know if what was happening was really true. Told me that I was making him sound like a jerk. Well . . . . when you tell someone that they need to pay for the parts to fix the ovens that your employees damaged . . . . . . Let's just say that wasn't handled as well as it could have been.

Am soo glad this is finally being resolved for you and that you will have new ovens soon! You have indeed been resilient and handled the sorry situation in the best possible way, kudos to you...it was good to have the conversation with the OM and clear the air...and kudos to GW's who chimed in to help!

Can't wait to see your new ovens!!! Cheers Poohpup!!!

hi pooh,

so glad this is over for you and you can move on..

hope everything goes without a hitch and the ovens work perfectly!!!

very cool that GWers called/emailed the store...we are force to be reckoned with!!!!!

Happy Baking/Roasting/Broiling!!!

Great choice. Now you can move forward and enjoy a fantastic meal in your new kitchen....but make sure your family does the clean up! :)

My compliments to the callers and congrats to Poohpup.

Glad that you are getting a resolution and you can finally stop thinking and worrying about your ovens. I hope the very first time you cook with them, you forget all of the hassle, and just think about how amazing they are.

That is incredible that GWers called and wrote. This place is one of a kind :)

Happy ending! Love it!

I hope the store is mulling over the importance of good communication technique.

Wow, a fairy tale ending....and they lived happily ever after. I'm happy for you. Enjoy your ovens. Way to go GW!

PoohPup, so sad you had to invest so much time and energy getting what you paid for!

But, so glad it is resolved. And I CAN'T WAIT to see pics of what you cook up in that incredibly georgeous kitchen of yours!

I haven't been back since my first reply which was late at night. I've had my plate more than full too, and I was tired. By the time I replied, I lost track of the fact that the other floor model was an upgraded oven too (I was thinking that was the $2000). I think I would agree that I wouldn't want to pay the extra, but that it is fair to pay something for the upgrade. If that reflects their cost differential, I think it is probably a fair offer. Given that you bought all you appliances there, could they absorb the difference? Maybe, maybe not. Floor models can be sold at cost or below and you may have had other discounts, especially for the package. Regardless, I hope you will be thrilled with them and never look back.

The everyone wins is the best possible solution. I've also heard it said a fair settlement is one where every one is a bit unhappy or loses a little, but not too much. One lawyer I know described settlements as being like kissing your sister. One thing's for sure -- they require some give and take.

Now Mr. OM -- please send your best make sure the installers get it right this time! ;-)

I was feeling good for you, until I read their reasons for wanting more money. I wouldn't pay another dime either, and might even present them a bill for the expenses it has cost you for their damage, as I'm sure there have been expenses on your end too, and all this install, uninstall, install, uninstall, install is bound to cause some damage to your brand new cabinets, and you'll have to pay to have those repaired too.

WHOA - someone on this board called about a matter that did not involve them other than as a reader? That crosses the line.

How is that crossing the line? Curious on the reasoning behind that.

Who are you saying crossed the line motherof3sons

I think she's saying that the four people from GW who contacted the store crossed the line. What I don't get is why that was crossing the line. If that's what she's saying, I don't see why it was out of line for them any more than it would have been for my KD or any of my friends who have been upset at how this whole thing has played out. I've had several people, including my KD, offer to call the store on my behalf but never felt the need. Never asked anyone to call or write but am very touched that others let them know how they felt. It's a free country. Just don't see where that was crossing the line.

It totally depends on the person. For some people, they might see this forum as an anonymous forum to express opinions and get advice but they might not want anyone to get involved or tell the store anything they said here. They might worry that other people getting involved in a negotiation between the store and themselves might cause that negotiation to fail or be more difficult. In your case I think it helped and you didn't mind.

Pooh - glad you are getting an "new" oven! Does the new model still have the cute analog clock?
I tried to show someone your kitchen today - but all we could pull up were oven posts - I will email a link.
Take care and happy baking!!!

Oh ok, I had to go back and read your update post where you said several had called.

I understand your feelings about the $450. It was an expense that you shouldn't have had except for their incompetent installers.

OTOH, if this helps, IF you had gotten your money back and had to start over at square one shopping for the ovens, and found the 2nd set of floor models at the other store, what would you have had to pay? Yes, I agree that they are in the same condition and approximate age at time of purchase, but chances are they were a higher list price too because of the year model and inflation. Just like the 2011 Corolla might have been $15K and the 2012 Corolla $17K.

Also, if it helps, at least they were willing to work with you. When we had a flooring store install Mannington wood flooring, the floors started checking and buckling. At first the installer blamed the flooring after he came out and did another moisture test and our slab was fine, and the store owner agreed that something was wrong with the flooring, but after the Mannington rep determined that it was all our fault, the store owner backed down and agreed with him. We had to replace the floor at our own expense. And of course I tell EVERYONE not to ever buy a Mannington product. lol

Poohpup,

I am so happy that you've been able to resolve this matter. I'm sure you will be happy with your ovens. I agree that you should not have had to pay anything. However, as another poster stated legal requirements and great customer service are not the same. If great customer service was their goal then perhaps they would have considered the cost to you by the hour to be present for each repair, delivery and install as well as the many phone calls and emails; as well as your status as a repeat customer. Good luck on the new install

itsallaboutthefood, ahh . . . . that makes sense. I was surprised, but I didn't mind. I hadn't said anything on this site that I either hadn't already said to them or wouldn't have said to them. Important to realize though, that once things go out on the web, especially this site, it is there for all to see whether you want them to or not. When I go a google search on "magma supreme granite" images, a lot of the top pics that show up are of my kitchen!

a2gemini, the ovens look exactly the same. As far as know, the only difference is that the lower oven is convection. And I do love the clock too.

marti8a, I've no idea what they would have sold the other floor model for. I've no doubt that it would have been more than what I paid for mine. I do get that. And I do give credit to the store for working with me and doing their best to handle a bad situation. Truthfully, the whole thing would have been easier if communication had been better. Got started off on the wrong foot with the whole "pay for the parts yourself" decision as well as a couple of others. Very possible if it had been handled differently I would be doing the happy dance to have the newer ovens for an extra $480. But it wasn't and I'm not. Glad it is resolved but definitely am not doing the happy dance. So sorry to hear about your floors. How incredibly frustrating and upsetting!

suzie2003, Thanks for the kind words. I"m sure I'll be happy with the new ovens. Very happy that my inconvenience is now down to being around for yet another uninstall/install.

Pooh - The explanation of why I believe it to be crossing the line by 'itsallaboutfood' is pretty much spot on. In this case, it appears you reached a settlement and all is good. As you said in a previous post - once it's on the web, it is out there. Glad to read things worked out and you will have new ovens.