You will get more comments if the layout is actually embedded in your post than you will linking to it. Do you have a "flat" or "2D" layout, it's much easier to see comment when you have a flat pic so you can see actual aisle widths, etc. without the distortion from a 3-D picture. Bot views are good and serve a purpose...but if only one is shown, the 2D is better for layout critiques.

Here's your layout from your link.

Adding up the dimensions of your drawing, your kitchen is 170" wide by 235" long. Oh, wait, one side adds up to 235", the other to 234", something is off somewhere. Can you check and let us know which dimension is accurate?

You've put in measurements for doors and windows but you've neglected to tell us measurements for aisles and island. If your aisles are 42" (measuring counter to counter), then your island is 35". That means you may only have 8" overhang for your stools (35" - 3" counter overhang (1.5" each side) - 24" cab = 8"). That is too shallow for comfort and it will push anyone sitting at the island out into your aisle, which will make it hard to move around your kitchen.

Your range wall is quite crowded. If your fridge is 36" wide and your pantry is about the same, then you may only have 17" on either side of your 48" range top - or less. It's hard to tell how close to the doorway the counter will go and I don't know how large your fridge cabinet is.

Can your planned door to garden be moved along that wall? Can fridge & pantry bump-out be moved along that wall?

MW in the bar area makes it far from the sink. Not sure if you use yours the same, but I often steam veggies, so need to add water, or cook or defrost things that need to be drained, so proximity to the sink and prep area would be important.

It would also bother me, as a baker, to have the stools in front of the oven area. Will you use the island or left perimeter counter for baking tasks, and where will your baking ingredients be located?

This is just a cosmetic thing, but to me, the angled upper in the one corner looks heavy. Having a corner cabinet that has a 90 degree angle instead of the 45 means better head room at the counter, and a wider opening from which to access cabinet contents, besides it being less deep, so things don't get lost in the back corner.

It would really bug me to have a traffic path (in this case, the garden door) between the range and the sink, not just because of the traffic but because it makes you lose valuable workspace right where you need it most. The space between range and sink is what most people use the most when they're cooking, canning, etc., and it would be annoying to have a doorway there--not just because the doorway traffic would conflict with you when you're cooking, but also because it chops out a big hunk of the counter space between sink and stove. That is PRIME real estate in a kitchen!

Since that door to the garden doesn't exist yet, you could fix this problem by moving it down towards the dining room. Another option would be to put the range on the left-hand side of that drawing rather than the right, which would put the range in front of a window--that's doable, and some people like it, but I don't know if it's to your tastes. It would probably make more sense to scoot the range and the counters to each side of it up three feet, and put the door between the right-hand range counter and the fridge. (That would give people at the island a view of the garden, assuming the door has glass in it.) Or you could scoot the range, its counters and the fridge up and put the garden door near the bottom right of the kitchen, between the fridge and the pantry.

DH should have better drawings with dimensions in AutoCAD that I can post, to include island and aisle measurements. (hopefully tonight!).
-The longer side should be 235''.(I think the measurement didn't account for the existing door casing.)
-The pantry door and bumpout can definitely be moved/adjusted. I am also open to not having the door at all. I forgot to mention that I compost quite a bit, so that makes for more trips outside but I can still walk around the house from the existing door.
-The limited amount of space beside the range is definitely a concern. I wonder if having the island behind will make up for it, or if I really do need to increase it?
-Lisa_a, I see what you mean about the island overhang. My current island is 24''W with 35'' aisle room, no cabinets underneath, so I guess I am just used to everyone 'squeezing in'.
-rhome410, Most of the baking accessories (mixer, food processor) and some of the ingredients will be in the cabinets to the side of the ovens, under the window. The rest will probably be in the pantry. Prep would take place both on the island and under the window. As for the micro, we would have a sink in the bar area, so draining/water shouldn't be a problem. I love your idea for 90 vs. 45 angle corner cabinet!
-ideagirl2, I definitely need to do some more thinking on that door. You are right about losing that counter space, but I am less worried about the traffic path. The garden is fenced, so visitors won't enter there, but you are right, it could potentially be a bit congested with both DH and I working in that spot.

Quickly...

Seating on a work aisle...you have seating on an aisle w/cabinets, counters, and appliances behind the seats...how deep is that aisle? It should be at least 54" if you have a 15" seating overhang (the recommended minimum); 57" if you have only a 12" overhang. (If a 9" overhang, then 63" aisle.) For seating at an island with cabinets on both sides, your kitchen should be at least 15'8" wide. Your kitchen is only 14'2" wide...18" too narrow...and those are an important 18 inches!
25.5" perimeter counter + 54" aisle with seats + 41.5" island + 42" work aisle + 25.5" perimeter counter = 188.5" (15'8.5")

Reducing the work aisle to 36" will net you 6", but at the expense, in your case, of accommodating more than one person prepping and/or cooking.

Reducing the seating aisle to 48", will also net you 6", but now if anyone is seated at the island they will be blocking the aisle and no one will be able to work at the counter behind them. In your case, it's worse b/c you have ovens opening into that aisle...a safety hazard if anyone is sitting there!

Have you considered eliminating one side of cabs/counters and/or turning the island 90 degrees so the seating faces the sink, not the range?

Useful Counterspace...Other than as a "bar", what are your plans for the length of counterspace to the left of the sink wall? Right now, it's not useful for prepping or cooking b/c it's much too far away from the range and the island is in the way.

DWW/DW Drawers...are in the middle of your Prep Zone. Because you have no water on the island, your Prep Zone will usually be to the right of the sink.

Work and Landing space around the range...How much work and landing space is on each side of your range? 24" is the minimum amount needed, especially b/c it's near a door, IMO. If you had a large amount on one side, a bit less on the other might be OK (like 18" instead of 24"), but it looks a little tight on both sides.

Have you considered moving the range & refrigerator to the right wall? Yes, you will have to reduce your window or split it into two (flanking the range), but I think it will be more functional. Yes, I know you said windows cannot change...but are your windows currently at least 36" off the floor? If not, you will have to change them anyway. I also recommend the windows be counter-height for maximum impact both functionally and aesthetically.

One thing...don't abandon aesthetics completely. It's an important aspect of any remodel. I agree with you about function first, but after you've come up with a functional layout, work on getting it aesthetically pleasing as well.

Since you're of an engineering bent (similar to me, btw), I think you will find symmetry very important. But first, let's get you a truly functional layout!

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: counter height window pictures please

Do you really need all that cabinetry? The room is very dense, and could use some opening up, especially since it looks like you have the benefit of light on 3 sides of your kitchen.

How about this idea:

{{gwi:1934191}}

It's not drawn to scale but the measurements are accurate based on your drawing's measurements. Measurements for aisles are counter to counter (range top to island is 42.5", didn't come out clearly on drawing). I made some assumptions: 30" ovens will fit into a 30" cabinet (some will, some won't). The fridge cab is 39". Pantry is 36" wide. Sink cabinet is 36".

I moved the door to the garden all the way to the right on that wall. I reduced the DR doorway enough so that the new garden door can open against the wall and not interfere with the DR entry.

If you decide you can do without the new door to the garden, move the pantry and fridge all the way down that wall and shift your range top out of the corner a bit. That will gain you more room to work on each side of the range top. Even with the new door, you have more room to work around your range top than your plan gives you - 18" to the right and 24" to its left - allowing two people to work at the range. The generously-sized island allows for work on the short side and the long side.

The sink is centered on the window. The rectangle in the island across from the fridge is a prep sink.

This plan keeps all the socializing in one section (the lower left) and all the work along the top and right walls. Traffic is also kept out of the work zone areas.

I put cookbook storage on that left wall because it will be handy to grab one - or more - and sit at the island to figure out what's for dinner. Since you don't like open storage, you can put doors on the bottom half of the bookshelf with plenty of room up top for cookbooks. This piece can be made to match your cabs or made to look as a stand-alone piece.

I changed the island a bit, making it more conducive to conversation among people sitting at the island.

{{gwi:1934192}}

You can fill the odd void under the island near the stools with a cabinet to store items seldom used. Not the most convenient but if the new island shape works better for you, then it's worth it, IMO.

I moved the prep sink to the other end of the island so that it's easy to access whether you work on the short side (maybe baking projects here?) or the long side.

Oops, I forgot to erase the "12" deep bookshelf" note - please ignore, the cabinet is gone. I moved the cookbooks to the cabinet to the right of the ovens.

Like rhome, I'm not a big fan of angled upper cabinets. I think it makes the corner look heavy, offers less head room, especially since the bottom cabinet isn't angled (don't recommend doing that), and doesn't offer easy access to stored items, IMO. You could do cabinets at right angles to each other, as I've drawn, with the two halves of the door connected by a piano hinge. It would look like this (hard to tell if that's how this is set up but it does function as one door - only one cabinet handle).

[

[contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

Or you could try one of these ideas:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Kleppinger Design Group, Inc.

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by new york interior designer Marlene Wangenheim AKBD, CAPS, Allied Member ASID

You could put your cookbooks here if you chose to do this style of upper cabinets. Here's another idea for cookbook storage:

[

[modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by san francisco architect John Lum Architecture, Inc. AIA

Two of the above ideas mean you likely lose the corner space of that upper cabinet but if it has the potential to become a black hole, it might be a good thing to get rid of it.

This is just my two cents: but if you are planning to do the bump out to recess the frig (it looks like an exterior wall bump out) this will cost you WAY more than a counter depth frig. Not only that, you will have to somehow disguise/incorporte the exterior bump out which often looks like a wart on the nose if not done right.

If your bumpout is into another room, then never mind regarding what I said above.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! Hopefully this drawing will be a bit clearer than the first one I posted. I incorported the ideas of 90 deg. corner cabinets and moving the garden door to the end. I ended up making the pantry much smaller to add more space to the sides of the range. We are still evaluating whether this amount of space will work.

I really like lis_a's idea of eliminating the counter/cabinets from the porch side wall, but I am worried that might not leave me enough cabinet space. (still thinking on this one!)

To answer some questions:
Beverage center area - I plan to put my coffee maker there and also use it as a "self serve area" for guests for drinks. I really don't intend to do any food prep there.

Bumpout - The side with the dining room entrance is the only connection to the rest of the house (remaining 3 sides are exterior) According to DH, this will cost ~$500, much less than a counter-depth fridge. Our house is mostly brick, but this room has vinyl siding as it was an addition to the house done by the previous owners. The siding will have to be replaced anyway regardless of kitchen plans because it is damaged.

Hi Kat, I wondered if you were still around.

Moving the doorway to the end of the range wall improves the space around the range top a lot. I'm surprised to see you shrink the pantry space from a walk-in pantry to a pantry cabinet, though. Most people try to make their pantries larger not smaller.

Checking my math to make sure I understand your plan. Is the aisle between island and counter next to the range 47"? Here's how I got that:
171 (width of kitchen)
-25.5 (left perimeter cabs with 1.5" counter overhang)
-42" (aisle between left perimeter and island)
-31" (island width)
-25.5" (right perimeter cabs with 1.5" counter overhang)
= 47"

That means the range top extends 5" beyond your perimeter cabs. Is that correct?

btw, you're island is marked as being 31" wide with a 14" overhang and 15" deep cabs but it's actually 30.5" wide (15" deep cabs with 1.5" counter overhang + 14" = 30.5"). If the island really is 31" wide, then your overhang is 14.5", close enough to NKBA's recommended minimum of 15" for 36" high counters.

This plan is better than what you started with but, IMO, you still have some work flow issues. Imagine prepping a stove top meal using fresh produce (you wrote that you use lots of fresh foods). You get the items from the fridge, then walk through your cooking zone to the sink to rinse the items, then move to prep ... where? Between sink and range top? Or on the island where your trash pull-out is? As it is, your flow isn't as efficient as it could be. Adding a prep sink to the island and keeping a trash pull-out there would be an improvement. That would, however, require changing the seating arrangement at the island. Based on your island's dimensions, I'm assuming you plan to have 3 seated on the long side and 1 at the bottom end.

Speaking of island seating, anyone seated at the end will need to move when you open the ovens. Maybe you don't use your ovens regularly but if they get more use when you entertain, then you're going to have some issues with this lay-out.

I understand the concern about losing cabinet space. Have you done a tally of your kitchen items and figured out how much storage you need and where you need it? Or are you just trying to fill up as much wall space as possible with cabinets? In other words, do you really need as much as you're designing into the space? I'd hate for you to find out after the fact that you went overboard on storage to the detriment of having a comfortable kitchen in which to work and entertain. Also, it seems you're going with a number of narrow cabinets - I see at least two 9" uppers, a 9" base and a 12" base and you're only allowing for a 33" Susan at each corner. That's a fairly small opening, which could make accessing items in it more difficult. What do you plan to store in these cabinets? What do you plan to store in the 15" deep island cabinets? Are you limited by stock size cabinets?

I don't think you've allowed enough space for a fridge cabinet. Even if you plan to sheetrock the fridge in - no cabintry - a 36" wide space is not enough room for a 36" wide fridge. Freestanding fridges require clearance around them for air space, the amount varies by manufacturer. Our KA CD fridge requires 1/2" on each side, an inch above and an inch behind. Check the specs of the fridge you plan to buy to see what it requires and adjust the fridge space accordingly.

Does code allow you to have an outward swinging door? These can save on wall space - and prevent door collisions as in your case - but local code may not allow it so best to check. Also, if you live in snow country, an outward swinging door may not be the best solution - unless you don't plan to use it in winter when snow drifts pile up against the door.

I enjoy reading these threads about kitchen layouts because I've learned so much from the knowledgeable people here. So, please take this comment as being from a totally UN-knowledgeable layout person: It simply looks like a lot of walking back and forth and around the island to get to the main elements in the room.

Here's a crazy, wackadoodle idea: What about turning the island 90 degrees and having it come directly out from the window on the left? People sitting there could look out the window. Okay, I'll shut up now and let the experts figure it out. ha ha!

I tweaked the first plan I posted.

{{gwi:1934196}}

Aisle measurements are counter to counter or counter to range top. I assumed you will have 1.5" counter overhang. The 41" x 100" island is surface measurement, which is why the cabinetry measurements add up to 97" not 100". (didn't include a spice cabinet pull-out so ignore that on the legend.)

I made no changes to the beverage center on your plan.

I made the new door an in-swing door, just in case. I moved the pantry around the corner to become a 24" wide pantry cabinet. This actually will store more than the shallow closet pantry your plan has, plus you can use the island as landing space for pantry items. Your plan does not provide landing space near your pantry.

I don't know if you can get pantry cabinets that are 30" deep. If you can't, you can turn the space behind the pantry into a pull-out broom cabinet. It does mean that when you open it, you block the garden door. Not sure how often that might be a conflict for you.

I removed the drywall enclosure for the fridge - this eats up several inches of space - and made it a cabinet enclosure. I estimated that 39" is wide enough for a fridge enclosrure but it could be an inch small or larger depending on your type of cabinetry (face-frame vs. frameless).

I changed the 33" Susans to 36" Susans for easier access to items stored in them.

I kept the sink centered on the window.

I made the island deeper, which gives you more room to work even when guests are sitting at the island. I added a prep sink with trash pull-out to its right. You have 2 large drawers on the island to the left of the sink.

The 12" deep cabinet on the left wall is 36" tall under the window and 90" tall to the left of the window (guessing that you have 8' ceilings and will have cabinets go to ceiling). Don't be deceived, this will store more than you realize. It has more square footage - about 25% more - than the 24" pull-out pantry cabinet. You can use this to store baking pans, small appliances, etc. This cabinet also gives you a convenient place to store your cookbooks near seating.

If you want to deepen the 94" of base cabinets to 15" deep, increasing storage capacity even, steal an inch from your range aisle and 2" from the island seating aisle.

As before, my goal is to give you more room for prep and cooking tasks (such as giving you a deeper island than you drew) and to separate your work space from your social space (why I moved the ovens away from the island seating).

This plan also gives you only 1 narrow cabinet - the 10" cabinet to the left of the DW.

meowzer, re: your suggestion to turn the island 90 degrees. Do you mean turn the island into a peninsula? Doing that to Kat's plan means the ovens would be a long walk away from the work area, most definitely in the social area and the loss of 1 seat at the peninsula. But doing that to my latest plan ... hmmm, that has potential. It would create a peninsula kitchen instead of an island kitchen. Not sure Kat is interested in that.

So here's roughly how it would lay out. The sink and range wall perimeters would stay as I drew them.

The peninsula would be 98" long, coming out from the window wall. That's enough to seat 4 on the backside of the peninsula. I'd add storage under the overhang, making the peninsula 59" deep (24" deep cabinetry facing the sink, 18" cabinetry facing the beverage bar, 15.5" overhang for seating). I'd expand the sink aisle from 42" to 48" since it's now a one-way. That leaves 77" for the aisle between the peninsula and the beverage center. That's overly generous, IMO. I could use some of that space by adding cabinetry on the wall between the window and door but then I lose a seat at the island.

Kat, you'd have 59" of counter facing the range and 98" of counter facing the sink. If this interests you and you'd like me to draw it up, let me know.

Would you consider two separate ovens placed below the counter instead of a double oven unit?

lisa_a, yes, I did assume things would need to be moved around if the island were turned and came out from the window, just didn't know how or where. Good to know the terminology change from "island" to "peninsula." :) Your adjustments for this change sound really interesting!

Lisa, Thank you so much for your ideas. We are seriously considering your layout. One concern is that there won't be enough space around the oven, but we decided that we can consider a range instead of separate cook top/wall ovens. I really like the idea of putting 12'' deep storage along the wall behind the seating. Initially we were opposed to having everyone sitting in a row, thinking that it would be difficult for the people on either end to converse. (Our existing kitchen has a "peninsula' with 2 seats on each side...one of the few features we like about it!) I see this design frequently though, so the arrangement must work out for many people.

We are also worried about not having enough pantry space. Even though we would really like a beverage center, I would eliminate it and replace that entire space with a pantry. Food storage is definitely more important to me than the bar, and DH is willing to compromise on this :-)

After I post this, I need to go back and take stock of all the items we would have stored in the cabinets under the window, and see if they will fit elsewhere in Lisa's design.

By the way...outswing doors are permitted here.

Meowzer...I appreciate your input too. We never thought about a peninsula in this space and are willing to consider anything.

When you say "not enough room around the ovens" do you mean because they are up against the wall or because there isn't enough counter to the right of them? If the former, you can shrink the 10" cabinet by 2-3" and put in a spacer cabinet to the left of the ovens. If the latter, you can expand the counter there if you're willing to forgo a sink centered under a large window. How critical is symmetry to you? Does it trump function?

I share your concern about island seating in a row. It would be easy enough to shift one of the seats down around the corner, although I recommend that you increase the aisle between the end of the island and the beverage center.

In the meantime, here's another idea based on your comment that you could go with a range instead of range top and DOs.

{{gwi:1934197}}

I moved the pantry up to the top wall, doubling the amount of pantry space. The downside of moving the pantry means that your food storage isn't all in the same place. It may make that top wall a bit heavy looking but it won't block light from the windows. The plus side is that you can use the 12" deep cabinets on the window wall for overflow pantry storage since it's so close to the pantry cabinet.

The sink isn't quite centered on the window anymore but it's only off by 5" and it's unlikely anyone will notice that in a 71" span. If you have gridded windows, that slight off-center position might be more noticeable. Is your engineer hubby bothered by lack of symmetry? (My engineer hubby is. I told him that if it's balanced, to get over it. ;-) )

I shifted the fridge and bump-out down, giving you more room on each side of the range (another plus for moving the pantry). Hubby gets to keep the beverage center. ;-) I also shifted one of the island stools to the end. That could be done in the above plan, too. You should be able to round the end of the island, which would help avoid the in-a-row seating feel. It will affect the large cab to the left of the prep sink, though (you'll need to reduce it's size to allow enough leg room).

I have another idea....

{{gwi:1934198}}

I eliminated the wall cabinet behind the island, moving some of that storage to under the island overhang. This allowed me to enlarge the island enough to put two seats at the end, two on the side. I moved the cookbooks to a bookcase at the top end of the island, facing the window. Use the under-overhang storage for seldom-used items - holiday platters, empty jars waiting for canning season, etc - not every day items since this storage is not as convenient as wall cabinets.

I toyed with the idea of swapping pantry cab and beverage center in either of these last two plans. I envision glass upper cabinets to store glasses and pretty stem ware in the cabinets to the left of the window. Beverage fridge against the wall with a 24" wide cabinet between it and DW. Coffee maker, etc, on the counter.

Plusses for this lay-out change: tripling pantry storage from Plan C and keeping food storage close together. You wouldn't need to install a bar sink with the clean-up and prep sinks so close to the beverage center - that saves money. Glass cabinetry would provide a pretty view from the DR. On the down side: this puts the beverage center far from the DR. Guests would need to walk all the way into the kitchen - hopefully behind the island not between island and range - to get to the beverage center.

I drew up meowzer's suggestion of creating a peninsula kitchen. I hope I understood the suggestion correctly.

{{gwi:1934199}}

Frankly, this is my least favorite plan for your kitchen. It sounded like a great suggestion but once I started drawing it out, I realized that it has a lot of empty floor space - 76" between sink wall and peninsula. That's a negative for me. Oops, I forgot to give you the span between counters on the right and left perimeters. It's 119"; 114" between range and far left counter.

Another negative for me is that the fridge and pantry feel as if they are outside the kitchen, not in it. Another negative is the 3 corner cabs, which generally aren't the most efficient type of storage. It also doesn't offer significant storage advantage over other plans - or perhaps not even as much storage. Additionally, the separate ovens are gone but you don't get a larger pantry in exchange.

But this is your kitchen so perhaps what I view as negatives don't bother you in the least.

On the plus side, there are acres of uninterrupted counter surface. But is it where you'd want or need it? That's your call. And if you are the type of cook who prefer to keep a clear division between you and your guests - they are welcome to visit while you cook but they get smacked by a spatula if they dare to invade your cooking zone - then this plan offers another plus for you.

btw, I should warn you that my plans may be off an inch width-wise. Your kitchen is only 170" but somehow I came up with 171" and that's what I've been going by. Not sure if I've done this all along or just in the last couple days. I've been using 235" for length, which is what I get when I add the numbers on the right side up. However, when I add the numbers on the left side up, I get 234". I didn't realize this until today. So if 234" is correct, my plans may also be off an inch length-wise. Not a big deal since none of my plans are drawn as finished plans but I wanted you to know so that you don't think, "Gee, too bad Lisa doesn't know how to add" when you draw up finished plans.

Ooooh, Lisa! That was fun to see the peninsula idea put down in a drawing. Thank you, even though this isn't even my kitchen!

My favorite, not that anyone cares, is Plan E. (Although in Plan F, the fridge is nice & close to the prep sink.)

As you said, it is what Kat and her DH like. Can't wait to see what they decide upon.

I think I am officially addicted to this site!

Thanks again Lisa, for drawing all of these plans. I was curious about the peninsula too, but now that I see it, I think the fridge does seem a little too far away.

Like Meowzer, DH favors Plan E. He actually likes the idea of moving the beverage center to the top wall and using the original bev. center area as a large pantry. I think it will be a bit of a hike from the dining room, but realistically in a casual, help yourself type of situation, people would be coming from the island in the kitchen or in through the porch door. Not quite as convenient as right by the door, but still workable. Plus, more pantry space will be a bonus!

Lisa, you're getting amazing at this! As usual, the only change I'd make to your masterpiece (Plan E) is I'd move your prep sink. :-) Moving it toward the fridge will make it more accessible to others without getting in the cook's way and give more prep area right across from the stove. I'd move it all the way down, but understand if someone would want it a foot or so from the seated person. Depends on how often that seat might be full how much priority I'd give it.

The peninsula plan is also my least favorite. Peninsulas aren't my thing to begin with, because they trap traffic flow within the kitchen. This one has the range right at the entrance to the room with the cook working across that entry to access the prep sink. Lots of potential hazard there, it seems.

Thanks, Rhome! I learned from one of the best (ahem, that would be you). But we often disagree on prep sink placement, don't we? ;-) I generally prefer not to place prep sinks close to where people might be sitting but I see your point. I actually toyed with the idea of putting it in the top corner near the clean-up sink so that it could be accessed along the short and long sides of the island. I know you really like having your prep sink positioned in a corner (it's how I'm going to do it, too, when I finally redo my kitchen). But doing so in Kat's kitchen left only a 14" wide cabinet between prep sink cab and cookbook bookshelf. Assuming, of course, that a 20" cab is large enough for the prep sink they choose.

Oh, wait, what if the sink cab faced the clean-up sink, not the range, with a corner faucet so water can be turned on from the long and short sides of the island? (That's how you did it, right?) That would leave an 18" wide cabinet facing the sink between sink cab and cookbook bookshelf, and 56" of cabinets facing the range. The 18" cab facing the clean-up sink could be the trash pull-out, which isn't the most convenient location if you're prepping on the range side but it would make it closer to the clean-up sink than where I have it in Plan E, which would be a plus IMO.

Kat, there isn't really a wrong placement for the prep sink, just differences in preferences with valid reasons to back up the preferences. You'll have to walk through, in your mind, how you'd use a prep sink, where and when and see which works best for you: next to the counter overhang closest to the fridge, where I've placed it in Plan E, or in the top corner - or somewhere in between.

So glad my suggestions and designs have been helpful, Kat. It was fun to work on your kitchen design.

Oh, one more thing. If you're doing overlay cabinets, not inset, then you might want to extend the island overhang another inch. Cab doors eat up about an inch so knee space will shrink by that amount. You can shift the island an inch towards the range or take the inch from the seating aisle. I'd also look into pressure latches to open the doors instead of handles. Do you know what I mean? The type that open when you push on them. Someone on GW just posted their 4" deep cabinet on the backside of their island with this type of latch. The no handle look gives it a clean look and in your case, it would be one less thing to interfere with leg room.

I would fight mightily against the prep sink being toward the main sink. ;-)

1) At that end of the island it wouldn't serve a different section of the kitchen, where it could create a different zone for separation of workers

2) It wouldn't be accessible to those outside the work area...which is a definite bonus of how I situated mine. (Which is, yes, on the island corner so it can be used from side or end...But it'd need to go where that bottom right seat is.)

3) It is beneficial to keep it closer to the fridge for taking loads of veggies or drippy meat packages across to it.

4) It is best to leave the island workspace directly across from the range for prep.

All good points, rhome. ;-) I tend to protect the counter right near the fridge because I've put up with a tiny strip of counter near mine for so very long. I also like having the prep sink closer to the range to limit the numbers of steps one must take with a huge boiling pot of spaghetti.

If Kat and hubby swap placement of beverage center and pantry, would you still think that next to the counter overhang is the best place for prep sink placement? Or would you want it closer to where it could serve as a bar sink, too? 'Course the clean-up sink is right there.... How does your family use your prep sink other than for prep? I ask because you said it would be nice to have it where others could use it without getting in the cook's way.

Some ways we use our prep sink besides prep and filling/draining pots for the stove by main cook:

- Baking (water as recipe ingredient, washing yucky hands, and sink as catch basin for egg shells, dirty measuring utensils, etc.)

- Hand washing

- Pitcher filling

- Smoothie making and blender washing afterward

- Adding water to things going in the microwave, then draining things from the mw

- Thawing things from the freezer

- Rinsing fruit for snacking

- Prepping fruit and veggies for salad and sandwiches

- Mixing beverages

I hadn't noticed the pantry position in Plan E. It seems a funny place, and I much prefer by the fridge. The area where the pantry is in E should be dish storage, as I don't see any elsewhere? You are right that if the beverage area moves over there, the main sink will suffice. I moved my coffee area next to my main sink and I use it that way.

What happened to the wall oven?

Kat wrote that they might consider a range instead of a range top and double ovens and also mentioned that they would like a larger pantry (I commented that their latest plan shrunk their pantry, an unusual direction). I combined these two things, which allowed me to move and double the pantry space. I also created a new island configuration and this became Plan E.

They are thinking about swapping the pantry and beverage center, which would increase the pantry by another 50%. The beverage center to the left of the sink would have a bev fridge and perhaps glass upper cabs for stemware and other glasses. There would be a 24" wide cab between bev fridge and DW - that cab could house silverware and dishes. Or they could go on the other side of the sink in lower or upper cabs. Putting the beverage center here does mean it's farther from the DR but it's not too bad a shot from the porch door and it's still close to those sitting at the island. I didn't suggest a placement for the MW (currently in the beverage center against the DR wall) but I think a location near the fridge and range would be best.

Alternatively, the pantry could stay next to the fridge and grow to 36" wide, shrinking the cabs on either side of the range to 31". That's still decent cab and counter space. Then the ovens could go back to the left of the sink or a dish hutch could go there. It's just a matter of fine-tuning now that the basic outline is chosen (or seems to be, anyway).

A 24" wide, 24" deep, 90" tall pantry (assuming 8' ceilings, cabs to ceiling with molding) is 30 sq. ft. A 36" wide pantry cab has 45 sq. ft. A 48" wide pantry cab has 60 sq. ft. A 72" wide pantry cab - if it was where the bev center is - would hold an incredible amount of supplies - 90 sq ft. If I'm doing my math correctly, that is. It's late, I'm tired so someone best check my math to be sure.

Anyhoo, my walk-in pantry holds 54 sq. ft of stuff. We store a few small appliances (and wine) in here so it's not all food supplies. One of the KDs we talked to tried to talk me into eliminating my walk-in pantry and replacing it with a 24" wide pantry cab. Uh, no, that won't do. Even though we plan to redo a cabinet to create better small appliance storage, getting them out of the pantry, I wouldn't want to go down to having only 30 sq ft of pantry space, especially now that I have to have regular and GF supplies of a number of things.

But back to Kat's kitchen.

Do you know if pantry cabs can be made deeper than 24"? Is 30" or 32" possible? Or is depth limited by available hardware sizes and weight capacities? If the cab can be made deeper, then leaving it next to the fridge and making it 12" wider would make the pantry cab equal or close to the amount of space of the 48" wide pantry in Plan E.

Kat: I really like the direction Lisa took. Eliminating that cabinet run on the left makes it feel so much more open. Sometimes less is more. You mentioned you were concerned about storage, and that you were assessing that with Lisa's plan in mind. Did you convince yourself that you would have enough? You could make a list of everything in your current kitchen, and plan where it would go in the new one.

It doesn't appear to me that you actually give up that much storage, since you pick up almost as much under the island as you lose on the left wall. I think her plan really opens up the kitchen AND allows it to function better.

Awesome job, Lisa! Very kind of you!

Thanks for your feedback everyone! Very busy at work this week, but tonight's project is.....Getting out the masking tape and marking "Plan E" off on the floor. We are still undecided about the prep sink placement. I told my husband that we will mark this off and "pretend" to use the sink for different activities. He thinks this is silly, but it might help us get a better idea of what we are comfortable with.

The more we think about it, I really like the idea of moving the pantry to the original bar area (between the porch and DR doors). We will probably just build this, rather than buying a pantry cabinet.

I'm strongly with Lisa on this one: Like the idea of larger pantry...Like the idea of built-in rather than cabinet pantry. Just my preference, because of more flexibility.

Thanks, Lisa, for clarifying about the oven...I looked through, but didn't find it.