Have used these many times, how deep are your shelves going to be and how much weight are you planning on putting up there?

Are these shelves free floating, meaning the ends are not going to attached to a tall cabinet/panel/wall?

Hi ajc71 shelves are going to be 12" deep (brackets are 4 3/4ish?) and will be totally free floating. There is one inside corner I will be navigating - haven't quite figured out that part yet.

Here's what I'm getting at:

I also saw these which are 10" long - maybe those would be a better option? We're planning on stacking heavyish things on them like plates cups serving dishes, etc.

I don't want to use a torsion box because I'd like them only 2" thick and solid wood. I've ruled out a french cleat because I'm afraid of the deflection from the weight of the load sagging the shelf over time. Oh, and I should also mention we'd be installing these over finished plaster, not drywall or masonry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Floating Shelf Supports

This post was edited by Swentastic on Tue, Sep 30, 14 at 16:34

I don't think I would attempt to use the original ones for what you are attempting to do, look at attached link page #335

There is another fastener that we use for this, I will see if I can find the spec in the morning and will send it along for you to check out

I would absolutely make these as a torsion box, the weight alone of a all sold wood shelf is going to be a problem...and it will be nothing but trouble making it straight and true

The inside corner is the only thing you have going for you to help with a solid installation....that long run is going to be trouble for sure, even with a tbox and the proper fasteners I would never guarantee they would not have a large deflection once loaded up

Here is a link that might be useful: Hafele

If you are fairly handy (or know someone who is), here's a very elegant and beefy solution using long lag bolts. Scroll down to see the posts by user name Vanyo: http://lumberjocks.com/topics/232

Thank you so much for your help - I'm flying totally blind on this one. I think you're right those Hafele supports are probably too short. Thanks for the catalog btw, I was having a helluvatime finding them for sale here in the US.

The only other option I can think of would be notching out the plaster at the studs and fastening L-brackets directly onto the stud and repairing the plaster afterward. I don't necessarily mind seeing the bottoms of the brackets on the bottoms of the shelves, but I really love the idea of totally floating shelves.

Do you think I could get away with a torsion box that's only 2" thick? I'd actually prefer it to be thinner - if I had my druthers the shelves would only be 1.69" (the height on the edge of my hood vent - strictly vanity points here...) plus I have to build this myself so I figured the solid wood would be easier to construct (HA!). Most of the designs I've seen spec 2x2s at least, plus 1/4" ply or whatever for the skin. That puts me at 2.5" minimum. Would I get the strength I need if i built it out of 1x1s? I need at least 12" deep for my plates to fit...

Crampon - are you a climber?? I've seen that approach before and actually had originally planned on doing exactly that. I've read and suspect, however, that getting things level on both planes would be very difficult. This is why I was searching for a prefab hardware solution instead. I may just end up going back to that plan and do a couple practice runs somewhere else in the house. Have you tried this?? Any tips on getting all the holes perfectly perpendicular? I see myself blowing out the side of a stud drilling blindly through the wall...

EDIT: and thank you too for chiming in! I appreciate the help and suggestions.

This post was edited by Swentastic on Tue, Sep 30, 14 at 18:03

I mounted a 6"x10"x 7ft. long hunk of vintage doug fir as a mantle beam using the lag screw/cut off head method. Works great! Easy and cheap :)

5/8" or 3/4" wood dowel is another option...

This post was edited by ctycdm on Tue, Sep 30, 14 at 18:10

ctycdm - that's a huge ol' chunk of wood! That thing's gotta weigh a ton! Do you have pictures?? How did you keep everything *level and true?

This post was edited by Swentastic on Tue, Sep 30, 14 at 18:12

I was thinking of doing open shelves and was planning on doing L-bracket approach you describe. I was inspired by PPS7's kitchen. In the end I liked my open space more and hung art instead of shelves, so I have on practical advise to offer.

Here is a link that might be useful: open shelf link

"How did you keep everything *level and true?"
and "I see myself blowing out the side of a stud drilling blindly through the wall..."
It sounds like your plaster is already on, so here's what I would do: Snap a level horizontal line where you want the center of the shelf thickness. (a laser level works great for this) Now locate and find both edges of each stud you intend to fasten to, (usually 1.5") Mark the center of each stud, and drill the pilot hole carefully holding the drill as level and square to the wall as you can. (I have a little experience with that technique since I've been a carpenter and woodworker for over 40 years;) Crank the lags in, and cut off the heads with a hacksaw or sawzall. Check all lags for perpendicular with a framing square, and tweak with a pipe as needed.
Now set the shelf upright on the lags with the back edge down, (top of shelf will be flat against wall) and trace both sides of each lag with a pencil, then drill each hole in the center of shelf between the lines.
Dry fit shelf, and If things don't align perfectly, increase hole size slightly and progressively on the lags that are giving you trouble matching up. You can also oversize all the holes, and use epoxy, but you will need to support the shelf with supports/props until the epoxy hardens...

This is great!! Thanks for the blow-by-blow ctycdm and localeater - this is going to be very helpful. I wonder if know anybody with a drill press - getting the holes straight in the board is another big concern and you've only got one shot to get it right! I think i will take the lag bolt approach.

Riddle me this, though. Using the lag bolt method, do you have any advice as to how I'd handle the inside corner? My thought is to have the boards mitered but not assembled, and slide the small board on first, the big board on 2nd, and then find a way to glue the seam - I can't imagine being able to slip dowels or biscuits in between given they're going in at completely different angles. I guess I could do a butt-joint instead - I'm pretty sure the corners will have plenty of support, I'm just not sure how to assemble it. Any thoughts?

This post was edited by Swentastic on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 10:16

Have done a variety of these. The simplest, and what I now prefer is also available from some cabinet Co (Showplace has em up to 8 ft) but they need to be 2-1/4" thick.
Hollow shelf built from 3/8 or 1/2" ply with solid stock for face and sides.
A very snug wall cleat made from 5/4 material.
Key is the screw pattern for mounting the cleat. One screw.on center and one half way up in each stud.
Shelf slides on an mounted to cleat with countersunk trim screws every foot top and bottom.
Holds 15 lbs per running foot, max depth 12".

Thinner shelves lose any self support against bending so require stiffer fasteners like the Hafele (2nd easiest to do) or the lag screw, or brackets buried in the wall. I've only done the latter on she rock. the longest in had done was 144" x 1-1/4". Shelf was hollow and assembled on site to the brackets. While I would not have an issue mounting a solid slab at 6" depth for thinner I would only do those hollow.

You won't be able to do a miter, no way to get the long point of the angle in while sliding straight onto lags.
Just do a butt joint, with a biscuit/spline and glue similar to this one I did on my bar top...

Sorry one more question for you ctycdm - of course home depot doesn't carry anything close to what I'm looking for.

Do you think this would work?

http://www.nutty.com/12-13-x-12-Hanger-Bolt-_p_5489.html

Can you suggest another place I can look without having to buy 100pc?

Here is a link that might be useful: Online Hanger bolts

Yes, those hanger bolts you linked would work perfectly! (just thread two nuts onto it so you can wrench it into the stud, then remove)

But, I'm surprised your H.D. doesn't sell lags individually?
If you have a regular lumber yard, or an ACE hardware you could also try them...

Thanks! Haha I was wondering how I was going to crank them into the wall.... you're so smart!

I haven't physically gone to HD yet was just looking at online inventory - I'll bop over there today and see what I can find.

By my accounting, I figure I should have at least a 14" long bolt so that I can sink 3" into the stud, account for our 1" worth of plaster, and still have 8" to support the board. I called the lumber yard who suggested I glue together three four-inch boards to make my 12" deep shelves, so I need the bolt to go at least 10" into the shelf so the end piece doesn't snap off under the weight of the plates, etc. Does that make sense? Am I over engineering this?

This post was edited by Swentastic on Thu, Oct 2, 14 at 15:15

I'm no engineer, but I would say 12" long should suffice.
I'd go 2.5" into (3.5"stud), + 1' plaster = 8.5' into shelf.

Remember, it's the shear strength of the 1/2" bolt at the fulcrum which is doing the work.

(1" of plaster and 8.5" into shelf ;)

This post was edited by ctycdm on Thu, Oct 2, 14 at 16:10

Ok that helps - I do understand the shear strength part. My main concern is that because we'd be gluing three 4" pieces of wood together, if there's no rod in the outermost piece it might be susceptible to breaking off or at least splitting under a load.

Maybe I'm better off gluing two 6" pieces together instead...

If glued and clamped properly, the joint is almost always stronger than the wood itself.
You can also use dowels in the glue up, but I think that's a bit overkill for 2" material, since there is so much surface contact area.
On 3/4" material, I will always use dowels every 16"-20" or so...

We did the L brackets directly on the studs like you said. We had the walls open so it was easy as we did not have to repair anything new drywall and plaster was going out. This was cheap too because L brackets are cheap. We tiled around them too we wanted the backsplash to go behind it. This has worked great and we store all our daily dishes on them, quite heavy if I've empties the dishwashers :).

Pic included from my cell phone.

ratrem those are really pretty! What kind of wood did you use? How thick are they? How far apart are they?

Also, I'm having colander envy - we have a yellow one just like that but I really wish it was red.

Useful discussion, thanks! I'm ready to start thinking about my open shelf, which will have to be installed into a masonry wall. What is the best strategy to support if the shelf goes into masonry?

I had thought solid wood was the way to go - but I understand the hollow shelf might allow me to put a bit more weight onto the shelf itself. The only source I know for a pre-fab hollow shelf, though, is Ikea. Would love to learn more about finding the right shelf.

Hi Juno - from what I've learned, it really depends on how big the shelf needs to be and how much weight you'll be putting on it. If its just a few tchotchkes then you should be fine with an "off the shelf" shelf and mounting hardware. There are quite a few places that sell these kinds of shelves, link below.

You can also build the shelves yourself with a little elbow grease - google "torsion box shelves" for instructions. That seems to be the popular choice and would give you a lightweight alternative. Also look up "french cleat" for mounting hardware - that also seems to be a popular way to attach them.

If you do decide to go with solid wood, that Hafele hardware at the top of the page is for solid shelves and would provide the invisible support you're probably looking for. They have an option for masonry installation and it looks like they come with pretty detailed instructions. We're going to have to DIY the hardware for ours because our shelves will be so deep and long and I want triple assurance the things won't pull off the wall when I load them up.

I placed an order yesterday with a local saw mill - they're going to give us ripped and planed boards to glue together ourselves, and then we'll take them back so they can plane them again to the correct thickness and clean up the ends. I'll sand and stain them myself, and then according to ctycdm's instructions above we'll affix them to the walls.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: Also, FWIW, I calculated the weight of our longest shelf (approx 75"x12"x2") to be 32 lbs. I also found this online which gives you the approx weight of lumber depending on how dry it is...

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/green-kiln-dried-pressure-treated-lumber-weights-d_1860.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Prefab shelves

This post was edited by Swentastic on Wed, Oct 8, 14 at 13:17

Hey Jennifer - I'm sorry I JUST saw your question! How did your project go?

This approach worked out very well for us and I'm thrilled with the result. We asked our carpenter to help install them because I wasn't confident enough in my skills/tools to hang them myself.

We used 1/2" threaded rod cut to 10" long with a hacksaw - drilled 5/8" holes into the shelves and into the studs. The corners were a little tricky and there were a couple spots with no studs so we used a dado and rabbet approach to solve that problem. After everything was fitted, we squirted glue in the holes in the boards and then slid them in place and let them dry up overnight.

I haven't had the chance to share photos of our kitchen yet - I"ll try to do that today if I can. I have more pics of building the shelves and some of the installation but I can't find them right now. Anyway, FWIW...