I projected into the future a bit and thought about what might work for me in 10 years since I don't plan on changing things. Now, I'm probably older then you and though I'm im great condition now, in 10 years this bodies needs might change. So I opted to put my ovens in a stack that I no longer have to bend down and lift things out of. I never had an oven stack before and truly love the ease of use.

Some additional factors to consider: (Some on each side of the debate, but worth considering if one or more happens to be very important to you.)

1) Having the oven next to the fridge is modestly less energy-efficient than separating the two appliances, especially if you plan on using the self-cleaning mode. Even very well-insulated ovens are warmer than, say, a cabinet filled with pots, which adds to the energy-cost of running the fridge.

2) Having the oven below the cooktop means the heat of the oven is right in front of you as you cook.

3) Having the oven below the cooktop means that the cooktop's venting apparatus can do double duty and remove heat, steam, air-borne grease and smoke generated in the oven.

4) Having the cooktop and oven co-located means that those dishes that use both methods are very convenient to prepare with no carrying of hot dishes from one to the other. It also facilitates having less kitchen stuff as things like trivets, cooling racks, utensils, hot pads, etc. can be centrally located and serve both hot functions at once.

5) It makes kitchen zone-planning easy to have them together as the cooking zone is unified and can be protected (in the traffic flow sense) more easily, particularly in households with children and pets underfoot in the kitchen. (see #4, above.)

6) Having the oven under the cooktop means you are giving up some very valuable close-to-the-stove storage space.

7) I am in my early 60's and I don't find that getting things out of my ovens is ever a challenge from the bending-over and lifting point of view. I generally don't roast anything heavier than a medium-sized turkey, and every thing else is pretty light. The only heavy things are actually the pots (cast-iron/Le Creuset, etc.), but that's not really an oven issue and they are generally much smaller than a turkey-roaster.

8) I am short-ish (5'3") and I prefer looking down at the stuff in my ovens, and I find it's easier to pick up and move things from below, rather than moving anything from much above mid-chest level, especially hot things. The top oven in a double wall oven set-up is usually higher than I like.

9) Old-fashioned ovens where the broiler compartment was practically on the floor were annoying, but most modern ovens have the broiler mounted on the ceiling of the main oven so it's almost waist high.

10) In two-cook kitchens having the oven separated from the cook-top allows one person to monitor an oven dish w/o needing to step in front of someone working at the stove. In a predominently one-cook kitchen this makes no difference, except that having the oven and cooktop in the same space will save steps if you are tending both at the same time.

There you are: some things to put on your spread sheet!

Full disclosure, however: I have a range with double ovens below and I like that set-up the best because of a) the convenience of having all hot stuff together and for moving pots from oven to stove-top with ease. And b) I like having it all centralized so I can peek at the oven without traisping over to it; I can be stirring with one hand and opening the door to check the broiler with the other. And, c) I really appreciate having the vent above the oven for those days when, er, something in the oven gets a little smokey, or steamy.

I rated (as less critical to me) two annoyances: extra heat from the oven right in front of my legs and having to step aside so another cook could look in the oven while I was at the stove. Partly because I live in a generally cold climate so heat is less of an issue for me and because with a 48" range, two of us can cook at it simultaneously (although there's only one broiler, so that is occasionally a bit of a bottle-neck.)

I do feel small pangs of envy when I see big drawers under a cooktop with all the pots arrayed so conveniently in them. That seems bliss, until I remember why I chose the range in the first place. Plus truth be told, I generally use only my smaller oven so the larger one usually has cookware stored in it! I know, my bad, and hopefully rectified with improved storage space in my new kitch.

I think this is one question where how you are proposing to use your kitchen is much more important than any other factor in deciding where to put the oven. Only you know which issue(s) is the highest priority for you.

HTH,

L.

Thanks remodelfla about remdinding us to look farther into the future. This is our current home and the one we'll keep after retirement (in other words untill...) though we still have a ways to go before that happens.

I don't like the bending down so low for a wall oven under the counter, but you're right but I'm sure it will get less and less desirable as I get older.

Right now I have only 1 grandchild and it makes me nervous when I open the oven door and she is anywhere in proximity. I realize she'll get older but I have 4 children and God willing, I'll have many, many more grandkids. Someone said that they had their MW easy access to a child that ended up locking her out. Kids get into things and I wouldn't want a child hurt, nor do I want an expensive appliance broken, with all the controls there at easy reach (easier then for me).

You've given us a different prospective that we forgot to think about. I bet if I asked anyone much older then me, they'd have the wall oven by the frig in a nano second when all is considered.

I realize there are threads about the oven placement. I think I'll do some reading from what sounds like us past middle aged folks.

We put our wall oven well away from our stove (stove is not hooked up yet), so have a few thoughts on the matter.
In hindsight, I'd have done it next to the stove and been able to have the vent from the stove help pull the air out if needed.
While you mention having to move one cook over to check in the oven, you would have to do the same if you had drawers of often needed stuff below the cooktop, possibly more often.

Once our stove is hooked up, I bet I use its oven more often than the larger one further away. Our stove is large at 37.5" across, but the oven below would not hold a full size cookie sheet because there is another cavity next to it meant to hold cookie sheets (smaller ones, lol).
I think having the oven a glance away from where I am working is more convenient and less easy to forget to check.

I am not sure how I would draw the layout knowing what I know now, but I suspect the location of the oven would move. It is not bad now, but could be better. Like you said, the pros and cons are not critical. The one that I'd consider most on the list is the venting.

Well, if you truly cannot decide, you let someone else do it. That's one of the big roles of a KD. We eliminate decision paralysis. We either narrow the dozen down to a few that will work and let the homeowner pick. Or if, as in your case, a homeownner truly says they cannot pick between two choices, we use our design experience and people reading skills to tell the homeowner which one they (the homeowner) really think is the best choice.

If you truly have enough landing space for both your fridge and oven if you put it next to the fridge, then put it next to the fridge, or put it at the end of a cabinet run between the fridge and oven cabinet so there's safe landing between them. Then the space under your cooktop can hold untensils and cookware. This is a better layout 90% of the time. A wall oven under a cooktop is lower than a range oven, and over time as you age, it becomes an even more uncomfortable choice. But, landing space trumps oven height. If you don't have enough landing space for a fridge-oven run, then it should go under the cooktop.

My oven's under the counter. The biggest/really only drawback I've found is that I have to wait a couple seconds after opening the door to look or my glasses will steam up. Otherwise, I have an excellent top view of the whole pan, and turning, basting, etc., are very easy. A big work counter's directly above, all ready to go when it's time to pull out. Overall, I like it a lot.

Wow Liriodendrum! You gave us many, many aspects that we hadn't considered. Since we didn't think it mattered too much, we didn't think into some of the deeper issues like venting, materials accessiblity, etc. It's great that you are able to shed light on the matter, even though you may not have the exact setup. Thanks for taking all that time to explain all that. BTW - I'm 5'3" too.

Dianalo, it's funny that you should mention that the plus of having drawers underneath, can also be a minus. So many things on our list, had a con for each pro....which made this so difficult.

Hollysprings, thanks for reminding me about the 90% rule. Countertop space is not an issue in either area.

Rosie - my DH has mentioned that before. I wear contacts usually, so I've only noticed it, if I have a reader glass on a rare occassion.

I think my DH is going to be dumbfounded when I read him about all the aspects we didn't even think about. We're getting so close to starting and I think we just want to be done with the planning process so bad, these last decision may not get the careful weight they deserve. We've made a lot of head way in the last few weeks, and I'm thinking we need to set it aside for awhile (so hard) to get refreshed for the last decisions instead of going at it so nonchalantly.

liriodendron provided an excellent set of pros and cons --all in one succinct post -- wish I had this when I was going through a similar decision process.

At one point I had been planning a total gut remodel which included a rangetop and ovens next to the fridge. But then we decided to conserve the cabinets and keep the kitchen looking vintage and as original to the house as we could. So to enable all this we switched to having a gas range instead. I was at first not keen on the range but it just made sense from a cost, feasibility and aesthetics perspective. Now I really do love it.

So if you are not getting to a decision after considering function, what are your preferences with respect to the aesthetics and how the two alternatives complement the design/period of the rest of your house?

We have a wall oven now, with a microwave over it...and we love it! It would be nice to have a second oven, so we're hoping to have a real range again, rather than a cooktop. Maybe when we remodel or the cooktop goes out...so far, it's been working great and it's almost 20 years old :)

While broiling is nice in a lower oven...for baking cookies, cakes, pies, etc. I think a wall oven is wonderful. You can see what's it the oven without 'standing on your head' which is so much eaiser!

What if you did both? Great for the holidays and any time you bake a lot and need two different temperatures. Just an idea.

I think all the big points have been covered so far. So I'll add one bit of my experience. I was struggling with double wall oven placement over a year ago when we planned the kitchen in a different location in our forever house than we have now. I didn't really have room for a double wall stack so people kept suggesting separating the ovens and mounting them under counter so I went to HD and checked out their kitchen displays. Several of them had separate ovens mounted under cooktops. I was flabbergasted at how low those ovens opened to the ground. Low. I have always had ranges and assumed an oven under a cooktop would be similar. It wasn't.

I assume you've done his already, but seeing and opening an oven under counter may help you decide. I know it did for me!

Um, the best of both worlds is often, "both"! Do a range instead of a cooktop and wall oven combo. It's more ergonomic because the oven isn't so low down, and you have the vent there to deal with any smoky mess you generate finishing off that filet at a high heat. And place a separate wall oven close to the fridge, or my personal favorite, separated from the fridge by a counter run. The counter run could be slightly lower (for grandkid access) and serve as a baking area. Win/win!

I have a very different view on this -- I think it's a difficult configuration and one I would not recommend for the following reasons.

Having the oven next to the fridge is modestly less energy-efficient than separating the two appliances, especially if you plan on using the self-cleaning mode. Even very well-insulated ovens are warmer than, say, a cabinet filled with pots, which adds to the energy-cost of running the fridge.

-- Some refrigerator brands, and some ovens, specify that these should not be next to each other. It's essential to check the spec sheets. Issues about doors opening also arise with this placement which always has been pretty much of a no-no design wise unless there is no other option.

2) Having the oven below the cooktop means the heat of the oven is right in front of you as you cook.

-- It also means that the oven door handle is bound to hit you you someplace in your pelvic area when you're standing at the range since that sticks out. If you need to lean in to lift something heavy off a back burner it can be very awkward depending on upper body strength, an issue as one ages.

3) Having the oven below the cooktop means that the cooktop's venting apparatus can do double duty and remove heat, steam, air-borne grease and smoke generated in the oven.

-- Perhaps but some ovens vent at the bottom -- some at the top. If it's venting at the top you have hot air drafting up if you're standing at the cooktop. If it vents at the bottom you can have some pretty hot air on your feet. That was great in December during a snowstorm when I was cooking on DDs range but not-so-much fun when you're making chowder and want to throw in a quick batch of cookies in July.

4. Having the cooktop and oven co-located means that those dishes that use both methods are very convenient to prepare with no carrying of hot dishes from one to the other. It also facilitates having less kitchen stuff as things like trivets, cooling racks, utensils, hot pads, etc. can be centrally located and serve both hot functions at once.

Not necessarily. Either you remove something hot from the cooktop, put it down, open the oven door, put it in the oven and close the oven door OR you open the oven door and try to get at the cooktop from the side. IMHO bad either way.

5. It makes kitchen zone-planning easy to have them together as the cooking zone is unified and can be protected (in the traffic flow sense) more easily, particularly in households with children and pets underfoot in the kitchen. (see #4, above.)

I don't care as much about the zone as I do with tactical use and I feel it makes the traffic flow much less efficient.

6) Having the oven under the cooktop means you are giving up some very valuable close-to-the-stove storage space.

I heartily agree! The two most-used drawers in my kitchen, at any rate, are the two under the cooktop.

For those past middle age, placing an oven about counter height is great. Cabinet designers don't like to do this because sometimes the best oven height for you doesn't line up with the horizontal counter line. But it allows space for storage above or below, a micro/speed/steam etc oven above/below, and those nifty vertical storage slots above/below. With a double oven it's tougher but roll-out oven racks help a lot.

The bottom of my oven lines up with my counter. It's higher than most (but I'm 5'9" in clogs) so it works. I have a rollout shelf so even the turkey is in a good spot for basting. There's no lifting up. It's about 2 feet from the cooktop with counter space for setting down hot things in between. For me, that ideal. If I had additional space on the other side (mine is at the end of the run) it would be even more ideal. My micro is below the oven with a baking pan low storage drawer that holds a ton. Vertical racks above. I add all that so my bias is clear.

Rococogrl, I was surprised to hear that putting a frig next to the oven is such a no no considering how VERY often it is done. It makes sense that a heat souce next to a cooling source isnt' the best idea though. Thanks for the differing viewpoints. Why did you choose to put the MW under the oven? I thought I've seen it usually on the top.

My DH and I did some yard work to get away from discussing the kitchen, yes pulling weeds can be theraputic.

One oddity that we were thinking of doing, was to move the pantry into the laundry room to free up the space for a wall oven. It is the same exact distance it would be in the current arrangement. The only difference is we would have to open one extra door. We really don't need a pantry at all for our things but we know it would be absolutely vital for resale, even if that's 30-40 years away. We'll still have a small triangular shaped area we could use as a small pantry or ultimately use it for a display area.

Considering we're at middle age +, we need to think serious about ease of use.

Rosie, is yours a range or a wall oven mounted below the countertop?

Breezygirl, we tried it but it didn't seem too bad, but we're not getting any younger. I could see where it can get old faster then we are getting old :)

Lavenderlass, actually we'd love to put the MW above a single oven. We were going to mount a black one under one of the cabinets but this would so much more sleek. How tall are you and what height is the TOP of your MW? oven?

Greendesigns, my DH wants a white cooktop and is willing to deal with the cleaning to have one (he does most of the clean up now). Neither of us bake much so 2 ovens is absolutely not needed.

Aloha- I'm 5'10" and the top of the oven door is at 48" the top of the microwave is 65". It would look sleek :)

I've always had my microwaves just under or on the counter. I don't like them higher than counter height as I don't feel they are functional for me. We are heavy users and I like to see top of hot food.

Aloha, mine is a separate oven mounted under the counter just to the left of the stovetop, with drawers below the stovetop. Highly recommend if you go that direction. If you check some of the pros and cons above of below-counter position, you'll see this does away with a number of the cons. Concentrated work functions AND separate--I can stir the roux and turn the roasting veggies without moving, or 2 of us can. My stove vent is also still close enough to carry off some of its heat, even if just incidentally, but even a little is worthwhile here in the Deep South (there are also windows over the oven, not incidentally).

Wall ovens are perfectly nice, and I originally planned to have 2, but in my 13 x 11 actual work space it would have cut into my counter space and, even more important, also severely impacted the open, spacious look I gave up upper cabinets to achieve. No way! Now, if baking were a hobby...

Forgot to mention, offsetting the oven actually looks nicer in my situation, IMO. The most important line of sight into the kitchen is diagonal right to the decorative wood stove hood w/display shelf, stove below, drawers below that. The corner of the island cuts off the view of the oven to the left.

People buying expensive ranges often want the whole thing on view, but if doing separate units, there are lots of good reasons for...separating them.

I have a set up similar to Lavendar Lass' -- even the measurements are similar (48" to top of the oven cabinet; 69" to the top of the MW cut out). It's been very functional for us -- and we, too, are "beyond middle age."

Instead of building in the MW, we had a framed space configured in the cabinet so we could slide in a MW. This turned out to be a good decision, as we've had two different MW in that spot over the past 14 years. I've included front and a side pictures so you can envision the look. (I was tempted to put a stack of apples on the cutting board, but resisted the urge!)

Lavendar, thanks for the measurements.

Rose, is there any way you could post pics of your combination. I think I understood you correctly but would love to actually see what that looks like.

Kashmi, that is a wonderful idea to give your MW a custom look w/o being locked in for what is placed in that spot.

Aloha - you've gotten lots of great advice and thoughts already, but I'll add my $0.02 anyway. In my current reno project I'm putting my single wall oven + convection microwave next to my fridge, relatively near to my cooktop. It depends a bit on your space but I don't have too much distance to travel if I'm transferring between cooktop and oven or vice versa. For me the major factor was ease of use. I'm not yet middle aged (guess it depends on your definition of middle age!) but I really don't enjoy all the bending to check on food as it's cooking or getting it in and out of the oven. Who does? No matter the age or height? I'm 5'7" in case it matters. I do use my oven quite a lot, so perhaps if you don't use it that often it wouldn't matter as much.

That was my major reason for putting the wall oven next to my fridge. I am very excited, however, to have nice deep pot drawers under my cooktop (another ease of use factor!), and to have a bit more peace of mind with my two toddlers running about. Of course you can't prevent every injury to kids or grandkids, of course toddlers in the kitchen require supervision, and of course they could still be injured accidentally with a higher wall oven than an under counter one. But it's less likely IMO.

I do still intend to use my hood fan over my cooktop when things get too crazy in my wall oven ... it isn't ideal, but there's no question the suction will help to vent smoke from whatever disaster might be smoking in my oven! Generally there are less disasters in my oven than on my cooktop anyway, but when it does happen the hood will still help a little. That's enough for me.

I'm not as worried about the oven next to the fridge causing too much problem. Afterall, the fridge compressor makes plenty of heat on a constant basis. The oven puts out a fair bit more heat, but only intermittently. If you have your fridge opening and closing lots during the time your ovens are working it will make your fridge work harder than if your oven wasn't on. I'm willing to live with that cost for the other things on my "pros" list. And not a problem for my combo based on the manuals anyway.

Oh the multitude of decisions ... glad you have some weed pulling to take a break from it all! Good luck deciding.