I like both of the KD plans because they move the work surfaces closer together. If you get a kitchen design mag (or probably look on this website somewhere) you'll usually be able to find good information about how to size the "work triangle," and that would probably help you understand where to put things.

I'm too old to be able to read the small print on your plan, so I don't know what the doors in your kitchen are leading to. But moving that door that's on the upper right of your plan would enable you to reorganize the space in your kitchen in a good way. The placement of the table in both of the KD plans blocked access in one way or another through the room, and I don't think that's a good plan. But then again, I don't know what's beyond those doors.

Thanks Karen, I appreciate it! Sorry the picture is so small. The grey boxes are windows and really are not moveable. Some day we plan to turn the "east" window into a single door to a patio. The north door leads to a hallway and the west door to the dining room. The entire wall on the south wall (left of the peninsula) is all windows and an exterior door.

I have read about this work triangle (no less than 4' or more than 9' - 26' total, right?) but I just don't know how to make it truly work in our kitchen. Our #1 gripe now is we have virtually no counter space and little cupboard space, hence the peninsula. I think our work triagle is about 6' total, lol. Storage and prep space is our very first priority with this remodel. To maximize cabinet space, we're doing cabs to the ceiling with crown molding.

Here's a blurry pic of our current space. You can see the huge frige that sticks out completely.

{{!gwi}}

The buffet that causes the "bump" into the kitchen. I love this and want to continue that sort of look throughout.
{{!gwi}}

Our house so you can get a feel for the style
{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Bigger picture link of my sketch

I love bungalows.

In my old bungalow kitchen, we switched a door for a window. It wasn't expensive, because the proper framing was already there, and it gave us a nice eat-in space that was not in the way of a door.

Can you switch your "door to outside" with the window that is on the same wall? I realize there are probably concrete steps outside that door, but perhaps that is not too much trouble to frame up new steps in a new location?

Then I wonder if you could move your sink over to the new window location. You could ell off that sink, where you've drawn the peninsula, and that could add some significant work space. Of course, the DR door is still in the wrong location to make this option really flow well. Is it possible to scoot that door along the wall towards where your sink is now?

Then you can put the fridge and the cooking on the wall opposite the sink. I would consider a rolling island, with a butcher block top, that you can park in the breakfast area and put into use when cooking so you have additional work surfaces close to the range.

Thanks for the complement, we love our house too. It needs a nice kitchen to go with all the other upgrades.

We could move the door, but it would be very difficult and I'm not sure it would help because we can't move the door to the dining room anyway to accomodate a sink. The buffet is there (hence the bump) so that would entail removing the buffet which would happen over my cold dead body!

Is your main concern that the work areas are too far apart? Or is there something else that doesn't seem right? The island/penninsula would be our place to store cookbooks (love the openended or glass shelf look) and all our cooking gadgets.

That buffet is WONDERFUL.

You already know I don't like the first KD plan. The 2nd seems a little better, maybe, but it seems like there must be a better way to handle the bump-in than have that corner (hip-killer) in our work area!

I promise to look more at your plan today.

What about a corner range and to the right regular or cabinet depth refrigerator and to the left sink and dishwasher?

Move the sink where the microhood is. Use the old sink area as a large shallower depth pantry cab - about the scale of the cabinet you like - but possibly with solid doors?

Do a straight run on the wall with the outside door. Start with the ref near the door and bridge across the window area (with or without a cabinet). I've seen people do it with a loose furniture piece as well. Put the range in the area between the window and the end wall. Put island height seating in front of the range. Add prep sink and cook.

A little concept sketch
{{!gwi}}

Wow, I LOVE Bmore's design. It'd be a little tighter than recommended to do a 3 ft deep island for some overhang for the seating, but a compromise I'd be willing to make.

Bmore, as usual, is onto something. Look to a freer, more un-fitted layout for areas that are too narrow to readily permit a traditional fixed island. You can really have the best attributes of an island with one that not fastened in place. When not used as extra counter space it can be pressed into use as a eat-in table. If needed, it can be moved along a wall to become a buffet or serving prep zone. If it has a wood (or marble?)top, it's also a baking center. Of course, you need counter-height stools.
Casey

I'm not criticizing, just asking: Why couldn't that island serve those purposes while being fastened to the floor?

An island installed permanently can have outlets for using small appliances and be of more use storage-wise. I don't like things that move around, and would actually rarely or never do it once it was in the place I liked best (I would go crazy trying to get it 'just right' again), so I admit to being a little blind to the advantages of an island that isn't built in. But there are other things that I have come to like or consider here, that I didn't before, so I'm trying to learn and hear why people might prefer it.

using the 2nd kd LO and making changes...

didn't see any measurements tho... so will the stove fit on the kitchen side of the bump out? put the sink on the N wall (where there is no window) and the fridge just to the left of the door on the N wall. maybe enough space for an island also. the sink and stove could be switched.

again w/o measurements it's hard to figure but maybe you could do a peninsula coming out from the left of the door on the N wall with the sink on it (pony wall maybe)?
fridge on bump out wall and stove on N wall. again sink/stove could be switched but I think the stove on the N wall would be better and allow access to the sink w/o passing the cook space. it would work with an island also if there is enough space.

to deal with the bump out wall and the NW corner I'd use an angled cabinet or put a 12" deep pantry cab there so the 'stick out' factor is not so obvious and in the way.

the wall space on the S wall could be a dish cabinet. matching/built in or a separate piece. or a pantry cab.

wherever the fridge goes i'd allow enough width for it so that a future fridge could be a CD w/o any major redo.

I've been too restless recently to really help with floorplans, but in answer to Rhome's question, it's possible to have the best of both worlds.

There are castors with good locks that keep a moveable piece of furniture from moving when you want it stable. You can wire up your portable island to a pigtail cord (or 2!), and have outlets installed in gromets in the floor. These close flush and hide the outlets, leaving a disc that can safely be walked on, mopped, etc.

Looks like some posts got lost...

I'm not too keen on a movable island, but I have never seen one in real life. Anyway, I resketched and came to the conclusion that the most functional design is to include the sink in the peninsula, which would let me get a bigger sink. I think the fridge and stove could be intechanged and am trying to determine the pros and cons of both designs. I'll have to google pony wall, because I have no idea what that is!

This forum is SO incredibly helpful, minus the disappearing posts, haha. Thanks so much folks!

Is this sketch, each block is 6". I just stuck a table in there, it could be moved. The windows are too low to allow placement of a counter along those walls, which is a bummer because I liked that idea. I'm losing my broom closet here but I could do a door mounted holder on the back of our basement door which is just outside the kitchen.

{{!gwi}}

Bmore's plan is so much more functional.

You could also put a traditional table in the space on the left with no cabinetry and make an L-shape cabinets on the lower right with microwave there so you don't have to cross the room to get to the microwave.

I understand that it might be possible to provide power a movable island, but I still don't know why one would want to... What is the advantage of moving the island? As I asked before, won't it suit the listed functions where it is? I understand work carts for small kitchens to give counterspace near a stove where there is none (as long as it has a place to 'live' out of the way), but otherwise, if something has to be moved, it probably doesn't fit. --But this one does fit, so seems best planted where it is? It's pretty big. I would want it to hold a significant amount of 'stuff' and want it stable, sturdy, and able to hold the weight. Again, I really don't want to seem like I'm attacking someone else's well-intentioned and thoughtful suggestion, just trying to understand what I might be missing.

Of course, it doesn't matter, because it's threegraces' opinion that counts! I'm excited to know how she feels about a design like Bmore's to see if she likes it, or if we need to try for something else.

I posted this but it got lost and then I touched on in briefly in my last post. Bmore's plan will not work; our windows are too low to allow for a counter to run along that wall. We are quite limited by our windows and doors placement and I realize that's frustrating. Moving them isn't an option for us. I'd also like room for a standard table for little ones to be able to use.

I think it would help if I knew what is "dysfunctional" about my second sketch.

I don't think that your design is dysfunctional. I just think the kitchen area looks cramped for the size of the area that you have available. I think people are gravitating towards bmore's design because it spreads out so nicely across the existing space.

How low does the window go? Can you put a little baking counter there at like 28"? It would be a little low, but I've seen some very nice kitchens with varied counters to account for this type of thing. Of course if the window goes down to like 14" off the floor, that's not so much an option [unless you have pets and want a ridiculously integrated feeding station ;)]

I'm also in the camp about being confused about movable islands. I understand a kitchen cart for small kitchens where space is a big deal. But once you are at island size (ie wider than 24" deep in my head) it just feels like you want it to stay put. Always.

I'll have to measure the window and report back! I also don't want to inhibit the flow out the future patio door - aka when DH is running in and out with plates of juicy steaks. num.

You can always put a shorter window in the opening you have now, and close up that part of the wall. I was able to get a window similar to my others from another old house that met my dimensional reqmts and it wasn't costly.

I like Bmore's plan a lot, and I think it would make your kitchen very functional and fun to use. Your plan is a nice improvement over the KDs' plans, but the range poking out of the cabinet run is still a problem.

The island that Bmore sketched could be simply a narrow table that you use as a work surface when no one's eating there. Or you could build a banquette in the corner and revise your plan for the window/future patio door.

How about a regular kitchen table on the left side.

Range between door and window in bottom wall.

Sink, refrigerator, microwave in lower right corner.

In your latest plan, I would move the fridge to the right. Especially if it's standard depth, as drawn, it will crowd the use of that counter in the corner, which, in this kitchen, is necessary workspace. It seems it would also crowd the cook. I find it helpful to draw doors open and people in the task locations to get an idea of how crowded the floorspace might really be.

I'm looking forward to knowing how low that window is, because I have some ideas...

I think in order to have a moveable island that makes sense, it really has to be able to rest comfortably in TWO locations at least. If it only rests in one location, having it be portable doesn't add much.

This varies widely by location, but here (which actually seems to be kind of lax with many codes compared to what I read here)--floor outlets are NOT permitted in kitchen locations or in areas that are typically mopped rather than vacuumed. They will give you a hard time about any floor outlet in general, but they are needed in some open space plans to meet power requirements and sometimes one trumps the other I guess. My advice would be to Not plan a kitchen using floor outlets unless you know they will be approved...if they are not it could really render part of the design useless without outlets.

It's about 23 inches from the floor to the bottom of the sill molding. Right now this room is classified as a bedroom and we'll be knocking out a wall to make the kitchen bigger.

{{!gwi}}

For what it's worth, in the bigger scheme of a kitchen remodel (even a budget-constrained one) my feeling is that changing a window is definitely a worthwhile expenditure. Depending on how much you care about matching your existing windows, you're probably talking about a $300-$600 window. The header and framing is already there, so labor to install won't be too bad (are you DIY-ing any of this?) When you consider that one decent base cabinet with drawers or roll trays can run you at least that much, it seems to me that if it dramatically improves your layout possibilities it's worth considering.

Also: we agonized over our layout for months, enlisting the help of 4 family-and friends architects to try to configure our kitchen space happily. It wasn't until we posted the layout here and some of the same folks giving you ideas recommended some really "thinking-outside-the-box" alternatives, that we finally found the RIGHT layout for us. It seemed crazy at first (we actually moved the kitchen into a different room) but it turns out to have been inspired advice. Everyone who visits -including those architects!- invariably comments on what a great decision it was.

Which is all just to say, take a look at the suggestions and mull them over. One of them just might be perfect after all!

Is that all it would cost? I care a lot about preserving as much as possible, but I suppose if we're changing the other window into a door, there isn't one to match in that room. On thing I don't want to move is the exterior door. There are cement steps and a cistern and our fence and all that would have to be changed.

Our exterior is stucco and I would have thought it would be a lot more to change that. Hmmm.

I truly appreciate the ideas even if it seems like I'm being stubborn. Keep the advice coming, it's helping so much.

A new window could certainly be had for $300 and removing a window and putting in a new one is not terrible.

The stucco exterior might present some issues. I don't know if you can seamlessly extend the siding. But I think it's at least worth looking into. It would make the whole space a lot more useful and give you a lot of options.

Hi,
What I mean about movable islands is that there are some kitchens that are borderline "too narrow" for a fixed island to really work, but sometimes it's handy to have more work area in a given spot-- a spot where you wouldn't want a permanent fixed island (or peninsula). Look at the movable work centers that Boos and others offer.
You can have a floor outlet, as long as it's fitted with a tight-fitting cap that seals with an o-ring. But it's not totally a stumbling block to have a non-electrified movable work island.
It is exactly right that it needs at minimum two different pre-determined parking spaces, or it may as well be nailed down.
The idea of them moving around too much under use is solved by the mass- my 2x4 work table has heavy oak legs, a 3/4" thick maple butcher block top, and weighs over 200 lbs. It barely budges.
Casey

Where are you all getting these $300 windows? I priced a window to duplicate an existing one and all the estimates were $1000-3000. (From two major manufacturers, a smaller manufacturer, and a custom shop)--and the ones at the $1000 end were not exactly duplicates, but "close".

I have an extensive area outside to re-stucco. After shopping around, I finally found a person who can match the existing pebble dash stucco from the 1920's. For a bit over 200 square feet - including parts that need scaffolding, its $1,300 (about 6.50 a square foot) if that's any help. For a small area, expect to pay two or three times that - still not bad.

I can't remember where I got this image - it was for my own use as a style sheet. It shows an arrangement close to what I was thinking of for you - but with a smaller island.
{{!gwi}}

Bmore - that gives me a much better idea, thanks :) It's gorgeous.

I feel like that design gives me the cabinet space that we want that would be near the cooking area and I'd really want a backsplash, so I'm trying to picture how that would work with the window. I have a hard time picturing things in my head, which is why I am a pharmacist, not an artist! It seems like an awfully long way to the main sink and I could make a big mess walking across the kitchen with dirty pots and pans. I know a lot of people like open designs and I am probably not one of them. Our house has several small rooms, typical for the period and also like the house I grew up in. It's difficult for me to picture a really open set up in our house. I prefer defined use areas and as I mentioned I want a regular table and I don't know where it would fit in Bmore's design (but please know how very much I appreciate your ideas!).

I would like a counter-depth fridge but they are so much more expensive for a smaller fridge! What a rip-off and why don't I think of stuff like that? Our current appliances are quite new so I feel bad replacing them but I would if I found some that I really loved that would better fit the space. I'm sure I could sell our old ones.

Typo - sorry. Seeing that design seems like we would not have the cabinets near the cooking and prep area that I want.

As for $300 windows: I guess I'm just not that picky. A double hung window with all the options from Lowes (Pella) or Home Depot (Andersen) at 30x36 (which I think is a bit large for the space, but it's what I priced out for my house) is like $280 with standard hardware, grills between the glass (standard 6 over 6, not 6 over 1 like threegraces may want), white finished interior and exterior and standard screen for 6" exterior walls.

If you need period specific windows that are finished with rare Bald Eagle oil with solid platinum hardware and crystal instead of glass or something then I suppose you could pay $3000 per window, but I'm a simple guy.

What's really great about old houses is that there are a lot of old windows lying around in architectural salvage businesses. For my 1920 bungalow I got a double hung window from a neighbor who was going to trash his as he remodeled. His was 6 lights over one, and my old windows were not mullioned, but since this was a single window in my new breakfast area I didn't care that it was slightly different from my others. So my cost for a new window was $0.

Of course, using an old window means you don't get any new energy saving features, but unless you're willing to drop several thousand $$$ for replacing every window in your home, then don't worry about putting one leaker in for another.

We got our 3rd bid, which is similar to what I first posted with the fridge on the northeast wall with a small island. Somehow though, he missed the window on that east wall so the design doesn't make sense. It did make me think that maybe moving THAT window rather than the south wall window would make more sense because we plan to make that into a door out to the patio anyway.

I can't scan the plan because it's huge. Also the 3D mockup doesn't have the upper-upper cabs I wanted so I bet that's not included in the price. There are a ton of cabs in the design so it's $$$$. But they are completely custom 100% hardwood cabs with plywood shelves. No MDF anywhere.

Sigh. This is hard! I think keeping the general current footprint of the kitchen will make it more affordable so we can have the upgrade we want and still keep within budget.

In some ways I feel even more confused than when I first started.