Here's that thread...

Here is a link that might be useful: original thread

What part(s) of the estimated cost total have put you over budget? Can you cut costs by choosing less expensive materials?

Tash, that's not really a "structural" change. You're in a rowhouse, and your back wall probably isn't holding up very much. Plus, a king stud and a few beers doesn't add up to anything life-changing.

The place to get advice is from a contractor. Actually, from several contractors. They can tell you what costs a lot, and what doesn't.

Moving a door isn't that expensive. Adding a wall is nothing--the trimwork will a big piece of it. But you need hard numbers from a real contractor willing to be bound by them.

Um, hello? That's why we suggested these changes? ;-p

Florantha - I haven't priced out the above layout. I'm assuming that the structural changes will put me over my budget because the U-shaped layout in the existing footprint gave me little wiggle room to make enhancements.

I toyed around with Lisa_a's layout and came up with this. Do you think this will work? I have no idea what I'm doing when it comes to sizing cabinets, so I need a little guidance.

Marcolo - I was thinking that moving the plumbing to have 2 sinks would be a major cost-driver. But, I hear you that I need to talk with a contractor or my architect to see what this would cost before I rule it out.

I had the same thought as Florantha, "Can you cut costs by choosing less expensive materials?" It does come down to whether you're willing to give up some of your desired finishes for function. Only you can answer that.

Here are some ways that I saved on my cabinet budget. I chose a simpler door profile. I opted for 45" tall cabs with stacked molding to meet my 9' ceilings instead of stacked cabs to the ceiling. All of these add up to a significant savings because cabs are usually your big ticket items. If you're willing to make some style changes that don't affect over all function (for instance, don't opt for doors over drawers), I think you might find ways to ease your budget crunch.

You could also consider going with laminate counters, re-using your existing sink and delay adding a prep sink (but plumb for it now) until you can install granite or another pricier counter in 2014 (or was it 2015?) when you stated that you can do additional changes. You'd need to delay adding a backsplash, too, unless you want to redo that as well. From what I understand, it's impossible to replace a counter without damaging a backsplash (this was something I looked into for my kitchen remodel, slated for 2012).

I echo marcolo's suggestion to ask contractors. Interview several (we interviewed 5 for an upcoming bathroom remodel), ask a lot of questions and check their references and business records (can't stress this enough) so that you don't just go for price over value. Turns out the guy with the best price is very bad about following up when problems arise. Working with him would have saved us money but would have given us many headaches, and we possibly could incur costs to fix things later.

You may also get better cab prices by going with a local cabinet maker. Many here have stated as much. It does vary, though. The first custom cab maker we got a quote from was high and their quality was low (butt and staple drawers). The quote I got from DeWil's, a semi-custom cabinet line, came in for less and had more features (dovetail drawers, soft close mechanisms, etc). The cabinet maker our contractor uses offers great, quality, custom cabinets with almost all the same perks for even less money than DeWil's and definitely less than the first custom cab maker we talked to.

One more way to save: delay adding the 24" pantry cab and the 36" wide, glass-fronted hutch until a later date. You can always put a different counter top on the hutch, even if you go with your counter preference now.

"Plus, a king stud and a few beers doesn't add up to anything life-changing." LOL, Marcolo!

Are you creating a Wall of Tall on the fridge wall? Or were you thinking that the 15" cabs between pantries and fridge would be base cab, counter & upper cabs? If the latter, I'd encourage you to group the tall items and the base cabs. 15" of counter is pretty much unusable, IMO.

I see where you're going by keeping the main sink on the same side of the room as the range but you're giving yourself very little room to prep between sink and range. Also, I should explain a BCC sizing better (sorry for not doing this sooner). The 18" refers to the exposed face of the cab, not the length of the cab. There's 24" of cab in the corner, out of view. It's pulled out 2" from the wall to give you clearance space so that you can open doors and drawers perpendicular to each other. Then you add in the 18" cab face. So the far side of an 18" BCC is actually 44" from the corner. Your sink would not be under the window and that end cab is actually 13" wide.

Here's what a BCC looks like:
{{gwi:1994150}}

These units are spendy so you could opt to ditch it and lose the use of the storage in the corner (that's what I'm doing). The other alternative is to access the corner storage from the powder room, provided the bathroom fixtures aren't in the way. A fellow GWer did just that. Very clever.

tash--why did you do that layout? What was your goal?

Looks to me like you have a fridge in the middle of the wall, flanked by two twin uppers and lowers, then beyond that a sudden parentheses of tall pantry cabs on either side. What?

So, this is a brick rowhouse, but without a dogleg? And you are going to enclose and winterize a porch that runs across the back of your house? If you are going to enclose the full width of the porch, the space might also accommodate some storage for the kitchen, buying you some additional space in the kitchen proper.

You might want to consider allocating your budget first to the structural changes you know you want, with the idea that you might be able to save money by finding good quality used cabinets and/or using Ikea butcher block for the countertop until are ready to upgrade. A lot of people on this thread actually also swear by Ikea cabinets, so much so that if Ikea doesn't sell the door style they like they buy Ikea "boxes" and fittings and order the doors separately.

In your current photos, I am confused by the one that shows the fridge and then the back door. It looks as though the wall the fridge is on corners off to the right rather than going straight to the back wall. Is the room really the rectangle you are showing?

If so, I wonder if you might consider keeping the back door where it is and building a U-shaped kitchen. With the money you save there, you could have your sink window widened and deepened, which requires taking out bricks and maybe installing an iron beam in the brick. It would probably be cheaper than moving the door. Also, I don't actually see how a centered door would be great unless it is french doors through which light comes and one can see directly out to the garden or yard.

This is a very rough idea of how such a layout might work.

{{gwi:1994151}}

I am showing an oval table against the right wall it could be a shallow counter-height table and a couple of stools. Of course, this arrangement would be most pleasant if there is light coming through the back door.

Anyway, I made the sink too big, but you get the idea. The base cabinets in the corners would work because vendors now have these swingout peanut shaped lazy susan things that allow full use of the space.

I noticed that one set of cabinets you like have stacked uppers. As someone who also has a small tall kitchen -- very like yours, actually, but 11 x 11 with 10 foot ceilings, a window about where yours is, the a glazed door where yours now is, and another window on the back wall -- I am a big fan of taking advantage of the vertical space, for drama as well as storage.

Anyway, I live in a 1901 rowhouse on Capitol Hill. My kitchen badly needs redoing, so I am facing many of the issues your are. The one thing I am for sure going to spring for is a Liebherr fridge. They are genuinely counter-depth, providing space by being 80 inches tall, which is great for small tall rooms.

So these are just some other ways to think about things. You will get other from other forum members as well.

I strongly urge you to look on craigslist and redfin for photos of renovated city rowhouses for ideas. It is also worth while to make the rounds of like houses open on Sundays. You would be amazed at how innovative people can be in addressing the spacial limits of these houses.

Finally, I don't know what neighborhood you live in, but I assume security will be a factor how you arrange your porch enclosure. I will be curious to see how you deal with it.

Be of stout heart, and cheers. hbk

since it's a narrow rowhouse, it's urban. There must be an Ikea nearby.

Here is a link that might be useful: 40 bucks for a 36in. drawer and Blum glides

OK, now I see that several people suggested talking to a contractor sooner rather than later. I have one who has a nice touch with old houses. He has been doing work on my house and those of friends on the Hill for years. He is renovating a house in Trinidad now, but I am sure he would come over to see what you have, make suggestions, and give you ideas about what various structural changes will cost. No obligation, just info to plan with.

Let me know if you want his contact info.

moving the plumbing or having 2 sinks might be easy, or hard.
You have to post where the sink drain is.
And the other pipe coming down from above. It's called the vent pipe.
After you post that, a couple more questions will be asked.
Then price will be known.

Its difficult to put a range where you have shown it. Unfortunately, there's lots to consider. A range is deeper than the countertop by 2-5 inches depending on your exact selection. When placed right up against a corner, it can cause the corner cabinet not to open because the range will block the door. If there isn't a wide filler (the whole 3") between the corner and the range, its also possible for the oven door to get caught on the cabinet door handle.

The range may periodically block the sink cabinet when the oven door is open. Also this means its either use the sink or the oven door, but not both at the same time.

The other things that happen are the bit of counter in the corner is pretty much useless and difficult to clean because it's difficult to reach. The same applies to any uppers over that corner. The uppers are also a little bit dangerous because at least some of the time, you'd be trying to reach into them over a cooking surface that is being used.

So much good advice. The point I'd like to hit is that you'll get your greatest bang for the buck, and by far the greatest long-term satisfaction with your kitchen, from a good layout, notably including correcting any suboptimal window, door, or plumbing placements. Do not scrimp there. Everything else is secondary. Even the stove is secondary--almost any stove will do you well if it's in a good location with a well-designed work space around it.

BTW, I agree moving a door should surprise you with how inexpensive it is, assuming there's no significant plumbing or major wiring there. When you get quotes, be sure to get that one from a local, well-recommended handyman for comparison. He can do it in a day and repair the walls the next, and his bill won't pay for expensive showrooms, design services, giant markups, etc.

Also BTW, you could put a drop-in stovetop in the corner, where you show it in your latest drawing. The oven could go elsewhere to avoid any possible corner problems, such as lifting stuff out safely. In a corner, an oven (like the drawers that might go there instead) would need a couple inches' clearance for the drawer handles on the cabinets to the side--unless you decided to do handleless cabinets, such as in push-release devices hidden behind the doors, which can be a nice problem-solver option in fitting together a kitchen with tight clearances.

Wow! Thank you everyone for providing such great advice. Lots to think about.

Lisa_a - can you show me a picture of stacked moulding to deal with the ceiling height? I'm not married to the idea of having stacked cabinets. I just hate how the dust and other things build up on the tops of my current cabinets. So definitely want something that goes all the way to the ceiling. Thanks for providing a pic of a BCC. I understand what you mean.

Marcolo - I will take your advice and price this out because, obviously, I'm a bit challenged when it comes to designing kitchens.

Honorbiltkit - yes, I would like your contractor's info. I'm also converting the basement into a rental unit, enclosing and winterizing the back porch and possibly, if I stay within budget, adding an extra bathroom upstairs. So, it's a fairly sizable project. I have no idea what a dogleg is. Love your idea of researching rowhouse renovations on craigslist and redfin. I tried on Houzz, but didn't have many rowhouse kitchen photos. Another KD came up with a u-shaped layout and it was within my budget.

Davidro1 - I actually like Ikea cabinets. I think these are Ikea cabinets in my kitchen now and they have held up. I'm actually considering using Ikea cabinets for the basement rental unit. And, if they help me stay within budget, I MIGHT think about adding them to the main kitchen. The problem is I've fallen in love with Starmark cabinets, which might plague my budget.

Bmorepanic - thank you for pointing out the shortcomings of the range location. Very helpful.

Rosie - I'm not a hardcore cooker. I do more salads and 1-2 pot meals. Anything above 2 pots is a deal-breaker for me. So having ample prep space would be ideal as well as a more cabinets for storage. I do plan to take advantage of additional storage from the back porch. So, it wouldn't kill me if the sink, refrig, stove were a little out of whack. I've lived with my current kitchen for 10 years. While I LOATHE my kitchen, I hate it more for aesthetic reasons than because of its limited function.

I'm with you - hate the dusting above cabinets chore so I'm eliminating that gap and that chore. Here are some pics of stacked molding above cabs from houzz.com.

Fairly simple:

[

[contemporary laundry room design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-laundry-room-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_753~s_2103) by newark interior designer Kingsley Belcher Knauss, ASID

More elaborate:

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by boston kitchen and bath Rob Kane - Kitchen Interiors Inc.

Here's one in wood (cab to right of sink, not fridge cab):

[

[traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro architect Brennan + Company Architects

Since I'm doing custom cabs, I can request 45" uppers and 9" of molding. If you do semi-custom, you may not have that option so you may end up with 42" uppers and 12" of molding.

If you do Ikea cabs, I'd go with stacked cabs. They are so reasonably priced, it doesn't make sense to do otherwise. Plan B should actually work quite well with Ikea cabs with very minor tweaks. For instance, the 25" cab to the left of the range and the 27" prep sink cab will likely be 24" cabs. Oops, not sure they have an 18" cab base. I see a 15" (actually 14-7/8"). So there will be a little tweaking but overall, Plan B fits Ikea cab sizes. As someone mentioned, you can do Ikea cab boxes and have doors custom made to get the aesthetics you desire. Check out the thread below for more info.

Here is a link that might be useful: IKEA cabinets with custom doors?

Oh, I see what you mean. That looks really good too.

Lisa_a: I started a new thread...I promise my last one...about a quote and layout I got from an Amish cabinetmaker. Can you take a look at it? I really trust your opinion.

Here is a link that might be useful: Amish Quote