Fruitnut, that sounds like my Chocolate before I pruned off the male limbs. I have never heard anything about such behavior and that seems odd given how we are both having it.

Scott

Scott:

I think I pruned off male limbs a yr ago as this is 2nd yr for same condition. It didn't help this yr. I'm not sure a limb all males one yr would be the same next yr. It may be female flowers set where carbs are highest. That might be where the males were yr before.

Speaking of carbs, a 5+ year old semi-dwarf fruit tree with approximately 1 cubic yard "root ball" ought to be receiving about NET one pound potash per year for fruit production. To process it they also need nitrogen support of about NET 3/4 lb/year. These would be best applied incrementally and simultaneously, with the approach of this years nutrients contribute to next year's crop.

By NET I mean: a 5 pound bag of 10-5-15 contains net (5lbs * 10%) 1/2 lb nitrogen and (5lbs * 15%) 3/4 lb potash.

To compute dosages to other "size" plantings: in a medium loamy soil, dosage is directly proportional to root volume.

A good source of potash for neutral to alkaline soils is Sul-Po-Mag. Alternately look for a water-soluble fertilizer with NPK ratios of 2:1:3 (e.g., 6-3-9, 16-8-24) or an organic fertilizer with ratios near 4:4:7.

Fruitnut, I also got no improvement this last year. But this fall the new shoots look thicker than last year and I am hoping they are female. It does seem like higher carbs is increasing the likelihood of female flowers.

Scott

I left a few Sayo's,Kbs,Rossianka fruits on the tree's to see what the recent arctic freeze did to them. The temps were 11*,14* and a few low 20*'s. To my surprise the sayo's were still decent, Kbs lost sweetnes and pulpy,Rosianka are still on the tree are very pulpy but are still very good to eat, it still has the american persimmon taste but look like dried prunes.

Saijo is the sweetest oriental variety I have tried and it dries the best of several I have tried drying. It is supreme sliced and dried in a dehydrator - truly better than most candy. For fresh eating I prefer smiths best(giboshi) though not quite as sweet as saijo it has a richer deeper flavor profile - if that makes any sense. Both saijo and smiths best ripen early and are very cold hardy which cannot be said of many others.

Thanks for the update shane11.

Tony

While I have tried many non astringent varieties over the years, sds almost always takes them out. So far I have had very good luck with hana fuyu and its fruits are very large and among the earliest ripening. I really like this variety.

Shane11, have you try Tam Kam. Non astringent. Large, sweet, and cold hardy to Z6.

Tony

My Giboshi (Smith s best) is still young, three years in ground had several flowers but not in so abundant amount compared to Hyakume for example. Is Giboshi good producer? Found some fruit photos on web, seems to be silimiar in shape with Saijo, like eggs

My fuyu persimmon tree is ready for harvest. While I was in Italy my daughter-in-law harvested 130 persimmons and I still have many on the tree. Last year I got more than 200; it appears that this years harvest will be a little short of that number.

Tony,

I have tried tam kam and gwang yang and in fact several times. I have also had ichi ki kei jiro, izu and jiro. Some of these produce several years but they all have eventually been lost to sds. So far hana fuyu is the only non astringent that has survived long term in my garden.

Smiths best (giboshi) is more acorn shaped, saijo is shaped exactly like a roma tomato.

Shane11,

That is too bad for those trees to get SDS. So far my Ichi survived for 7 years without the SDS issue. Is there anything knew on SDS? It is the cold that mainly cause the SDS?

Tony

Tony, I wish I knew what causes sds. It seems no one knows the exact cause although there are many theory's. It could be a combination of things. The 1st ichi I planted lasted 7 - 9 years and produced huge crops before finally declining one spring. I was sickened. The second ichi tree I planted only lasted about 4 years before declining. It seems to me that non astringents are more prone to this than astringent types but I could be wrong. Thankfully I have never seen any American varieties effected by this.

Tony, I don't hardly have any personal experience to speak from, but I believe spring cold damage (as opposed to mid-winter extremes) can lead to SDS. There may be other causes as well, but I think that's one of the causes.

And, for whatever it's worth, the only personal experience I do have -- I'm assuming it was SDS -- was with a young Hana Fuyu that was coming out of its second winter in the ground. It wasn't an extreme winter (and I'm zone 7 anyway), but we did have a late freeze that year. As best as I can remember the tree hadn't leafed out yet, but there was significant bud swell. My memory could be off on those details, though.

Cousinfloyd,

I do believe spring cold snaps are a trigger and fall cold may be an issue as well.

Shane & Cousin,

I found this paragraph and it stated that Virus like disease may be the issue with the cool Spring.

Two virus-like diseases of the Oriental persimmon associated with the use of D. virginiana rootstock under D. kaki
cultivate, are kaki sudden death in the eastern United States and a slow decline in Israel.
Kaki sudden death (Reighard & Payne, 1991), a virus-induced disease (Scott & Payne, 1988), first recognized in
experiment station plantings in Georgia and South Carolina, is now known in Mississippi.
Symptoms on kaki include blackening of leaf veins, leaf drop, and dieback of twigs and branches to the trunk and then to
the graft union. Symptoms appear in the cool weather of spring starting approximately 2 to 3 weeks after twig elongation
begins, progressing rapidly for 2 to 3 weeks during the flowering period, stopping abruptly with onset of warm weather,
and beginning again the following spring. Dieback stops at the graft union. Kaki scions placed on the resprouted
rootstock grow briefly in the spring then collapse. Symptoms on the resprouted stock, if any, have not been noted. Nor
has there been information on symptoms produced when virus-infected scions are placed on either D. kaki or D. lotus
rootstock.
Written and verbal information indicates that the disease agent is a nepo-virus. It could be introduced on scions of D.
khaki and D. virginiana. Once introduced the disease continues to spread in the orchard or nursery. D. virginiana is a
symptomless carrier.
Slow decline and poor growth of kaki cultivars in Israel has been observed when seedlings of D. virginiana are used as
rootstock (Cohen, et al. 1991), but not when D. kaki was the rootstock*
. No pathogen was mentioned. Symptoms differ
from those of kaki sudden death.

Tony

Thanks for the information. If it is a virus then virus free material is what we need. Finding that is another issue. Further research needs to be done but persimmon is s such a minor crop this is likely not going to take place anytime soon.

I got a few persimmons from the 3 three Fuyus, I planted this year. One had 2 big fruits and the other had 2 small ones . All of them are in ground and in loamy soil and sunny location.

The big one did not taste sweet at all. They went from unripe to mushy rotten (3 days) real fast on the kitchen table. The small ones were better tasting.

A friend of mine has small fruit ( fuyu) tree ( 4 years in the ground) and her persimmons are pretty tasty.

So,.. I am assuming;

1. It is/ was? the dry and weird summer we had this year. I can relate to this

2. My trees are just not top quality?? Oh no!!

3. It is their first year in ground ( I think they are 3 yr. old, about 4- 5 ft tall). This sounds more promising.

Any advice to get good fruit next year on?

I am betting it is because it is the 1st year bearing. This is actually true with many different types of fruit. Give it time and I bet it will improve greatly.

I just harvested a number of Saijo and Sheng from my mature trees; some of the Sheng were ripe and I was able to try them while the Saijo still need to be ripened off tree. So I have more to mention about the Sheng. My experience with this variety is that it has a track record as being as cold hardy as any kaki I know of, it's large with an interesting shape, loses astringency easily, it ripens well off tree and early season, it is quite sweet though not as sweet as some. Biggest drawbacks are that the tree is not as nice a landscape specimen as some varieties and the flavor is very light, similar to Hachiya. Saijo is a nicer looking tree - large and symmetric with many of the same qualities as Sheng but ripens smaller and slightly sweeter fruit a few weeks later.

Creekweb, I agree with you that sheng is a good variety, I find the flavor a little unique but that may just be me. It is another good cold hardy variety.

Have you tried great wall and if so do you like it? It is very cold hardy and productive and is also a very ornamental tree but when I grew it the fruits would always retain some astringency even when they were mushy ripe. I am not sure why that would be.

I agree that Great Wall makes a great landscape specimen, but the problem with this variety is that the fruit can be difficult to ripen. I have tried fully tree ripened GW fruit, and it's very good without astringency, but the problem is that it ripens mid to late season, and I usually can't ripen it on the tree like I can some of the other varieties. So what happens is that if left on the tree, the unripened fruit will eventually freeze which reduces the astringency making them palatable, but the result is like balloons full of sweet mush- not really what I'm looking for in a persimmon. Alternatively, I've harvested the unripe fruit once it turns color and dehydrated it with very good results. However, like many other persimmon varieties(Sheng and Saijo are among the exceptions), I've found that these do not ripen off the tree well - they do not lose all their astringency and develop too liquidy a texture in the process.

Creekweb, I know I've asked you a lot of similar questions before, but could I ask for your top Asian persimmon recommendations, especially for a just-warm-enough zone in the eastern US? I'd love to hear your top recommendations with brief descriptions/explanations like you gave just above. If you have the time and would be willing, I'd greatly value what you have to say. Also, are there other cultivars you'd recommend particularly for landscape specimens besides Saijo and Great Wall?

If you look at persimmon survivors long term at the Wye plantation in Maryland, there are six varieties out of 50+ still alive after over 40 years. They are:

Inchon: a good tasting persimmon similar to Miss Kim and also a survivor at Cliff England's Kentucky orchard where temperatures went down around -20F

Giboshi: a very good tasting persimmon also a survivor in the ruins of J. Russell Smith's orchard in Virginia

Taber 129: Similar to Giboshi in a larger tree

Komasaki: Hardy but not so tasty.

Lantern: Pretty early ripening, decent taste but lots of male flowers.

Aizu Michirazu: Very good but mid to late season ripener

Cliff England of England's orchard lost many varieties after severe weather the past two years but has a number of kaki varieties and hybrids that survived this test, some of which he now offers for sale. The only ones that I'm familiar with are Inchon(see above) and Miss Kim, which is a very good tasting, fairly early ripening persimmon which ripens well off the tree.

The most aesthetic specimens IMO are Great Wall - compact pyramidal tree and Kyung sun bansi - a large round tree with dense dark green shiny foliage. I also like the hybrid Rosseyanka which has dense drooping foliage dotted with orange orbs.

Thanks for posting, I am unfamiliar with many of these listed. If I remember tam kam and gwang yang were listed as producing after minus 5 degrees (maybe not gwang yang) I guess these were the hardiest non astringents grown there.

I can't thank you enough for that information, creekweb. I really appreciate it. Are these all varieties you have?

I've wondered how much the Wye Plantation's location more or less surrounded by the Chesapeake Bay (if I'm not mistaken) has protected it from late spring freeze damage and consequent sudden death issues. In any case, Wye seems to offer the best information for my purposes of any long-term trials.

I'll have to look back at the things I read from Wye about Taber 129. That's a variety that I failed to include in any of my notes. It wouldn't have an alternate name that you know of, would it? I did take notes on Inchon and will have to look for that one. Aizu Michirazu I skipped over because I wasn't (and really am still not) ready to plant any pollination variant types.

Speaking of which, when you say Giboshi is very good tasting, are you talking about pollinated or unpollinated fruit? I think I read some indications that it can vary more than other varieties that don't necessarily need pollination.

Another variety that looked especially interesting to me from the Wye reports was Sagocki Si. It apparently survived for a long time but isn't there any more. I don't know if it exists anywhere anymore.

Have you tried Pen, creekweb? That's another variety that looked really good from the Wye reports, although with smaller fruit. I just grafted it this spring in a few locations.

It's interesting that Great Wall was ranked highly in the Wye taste tests. Most of the reports I've heard from other people, yourself included, haven't seemed to be very complimentary, but maybe that's because they're not ripening sufficiently in other locations.

Of the ones you mentioned here, I only have Rosseyanka, but a friend has offered to share scion wood with me again (after failed attempts -- but I think I'm learning and improving significantly with grafting success) of Kyung sun bansi and Giboshi.

Thanks again!

My persimmon orchard in zone 7 is not far from the coast and now in its fourteenth year and with no winter protection have lost no trees during that time to winter injury, KSD or late spring frosts. My persimmon harvest the past 2 years has all come from this orchard. My persimmon orchard in zone 6 had been productive previously but has struggled the past 2 years with temperature lows of -12 and losses of many trees to winter injury and ksd. At one time most of the Wye varieties that I listed in my previous post had grown in this orchard, but they have since mostly died, some from winter injury and ksd, but I admit some from neglect and poor management. They die and I replace some of them or try out other varieties that are reportedly more cold hardy - this is what kaki growing in zone 6 is like. Each year there are always some trees in at least one of the orchards that are productive, so I'm never short of persimmons.

The Giboshi that I refer to are pollinated; I have not tried the unpollinated.

I believe that USDA Davis has Sagocki but I don't know whether accessions are distributed.

Great Wall had ripened well on the tree at Wye and deserved its good rating at taste tests held there. It's just a difficult one to ripen other places with shorter growing seasons.

The last of the nonastringents to have died at Wye were Tribble and Twentieth Century. They had survived about 40 years with several exposures to -6F.

Creekweb,

Cliff has a non astringent called Chinebuli that has survived at his place in McKee Kentucky with the -16F last Winter with minimal damage. I want to get a grafted tree from him this coming Spring.

Tony

Some photos of my persimmon trees.

Jerry Lehman U-20A American persimmon

Jerry Lehman 100-52 American persimmon

Eight varieties multi grafted American persimmon.

Knightville American persimmon

Prok American persimmon

Nikita's Gift Hybrid persimmon

Rossyanka Hybrid persimmon

Ichi Ki Kei Jiro non astringent Kaki

Ichi

Honan Red Astringent Kaki

Sheng Astringent Kaki

Great wall Astringent Kaki

Tam Kam Non-astringent new grafts.

Tony

Nice pictures Tony. You have some trees so close to house, persimmons (also japanese) can grow really high trees, but probably not in your area with cold winters. I am interested in Chinebulli persimmon, what about taste of fruits? Cliff also propagated Hokkaido persimmon, do you know how this variety survived last two winters in his conditions in Kentucky?

Thank you for photo of Chinebuli fruits, it looks similiar to Jiro persimmon. Did you taste Chinebuli fruits or Cliff said some description? I have not good experience with Jiro fruits, low sugar content compared to astrigent persimmon fruits. On the picture there are Chinebuli fruits from Bulgaria, I should contact them for scionwood.

Yes, I think Cliff also got his Chinebuli Scion from Bulgaria. I have not taste the Chinebuli yet. I just grafted 7 Tam Kam trees this past Spring and planning to put them down I the ground for trial next Spring. The only differences this time around is that I will bury the graft union in the ground 1 foot deep below ground level just in case of a harsh Winter that will kill the top at ground level then the re sprout below the ground should be the same cultivar Tam Kam. In addition, I may graft some 20th Century non astringent Kaki for trial next Spring. Scott Smith said it was very good and cold hardy.

Tony

Tony, where we can buy scions of 20 th century persimmon?

Only Scott Smith had a mature tree from Wye experimental station in Maryland. No Nursery has it. You may give Scott an email.

Tony

I have good experience with Costata persimmon. It is hardy at least to 0 F or maybe some degrees lower. But this variety is very vigorous with 1,5 m new growth every year. So maybe i could exchange scions with someone.

Here is the photo of my first Saijo fruits. As you can see, fruits are still light green-orange and in my condition is this variety late ripening, similiar to Steiermark kaki. Looking forward to compare taste with other persimmons. I read that there are more clones of Saijo in Japan, is it true?

I am hoping to be a first time grower of a persimmon tree in zone 6...I would appreciate your recommendations for flavor or suggestions, seems my best bet might be Izu...worth growing?

In my opinion, smiths best (giboshi), hana fuyu, saijo, san pedro, great wall, sheng are good varieties that should do well in zone 6.

If you don't want to fight the Zone 6 weather then grow the Hybrid persimmon. JT-02, Cassandra, and Rossyanka. These guys tasted just like Asian persimmons but can handled the cold to -16F and beyond. nuttrees.net sell them.

Tony

In 6b, I would expect even the cold-hardiest non-astringent Asian persimmon varieties to suffer significant die-back more years than not and probably get completely killed off sooner rather than later, even if you could protect them for the first couple winters to let them mature further before facing winter unprotected. I think a chance at fruit would depend on a string of mild winters. At the Wye research station, there were some non-astringent persimmon varieties that survived a lot of 6b winters, but the reports I read said they only fruited following 7a or warmer winters.

I would expect about the same of the cold-hardiest astringent Asian persimmon varieties in 6a. Even in 6b, unless you live near a large body of water that would heavily moderate temperature swings and make sure that your winters were always very average, the cold hardiest astringent Asian persimmon varieties would seem like a gamble in terms of cold hardiness, especially if you wanted to get past any colder than average winters.

American persimmons should have no cold hardiness issues even in 6b.

I don't really know anything about the Asian-American hybrids JT--2 or Cassandra, neither in terms of cold hardiness or taste, but Rosseyanka I think would be safely cold hardy in zone 6. I think it's a great eating tasting fruit, but I think it's also very different from pure Asian persimmons (and very different from pure American persimmons.)

Last year I grafted two Asian persimmon and they all grow well last season to a good sizeof almost an inch in diameter. But they all died in this winter. I really need to find an non-astringent variety that can stands cold winter in north suburban Philly. I have a grafted Great Wall non-astringent Asian persimmon survived two winters so far.

Tony, do your Hybrid persimmon. JT-02, Cassandra, and Rossyanka are crunchy? I just don't like very sweet mushy slimy persimmon.

All of the hybrids are astringent until fully ripe. I'm pretty sure Great Wall is an astringent variety, too.

Jian,

If you find one, let me know. So far, no non-astringent persimmon survives in zone 6 without good winter protection. It gets tougher to protect as a tree gets bigger. Not good protection, it does not survive long.

Jian,

All the hybrids are astringent just like Cuz mentioned above. The only non astringent I can think of might handle the cold of zone 6 is the Chinebuli from Cliff England at nuttrees.net. you may want to winter protect it the first couple of years to harden the bark up a bit.so far the three hybrids that I have survived the -19F this past winter and leafed out. I did Winter protected these guys the first year.

Tony

It is either Great Wall or Sheng. I bought for my friend from edible landscaping , it survived for 5 years without winter protection. Last year has the first crop after I advised to do the ring bark cutting. I taste a few. They are big and crunchy with non-astringent. I grafted the same variety on my root sprout american persimmon two years ago and they survived two winter now, Hopefully there will be a flower bud to bear fruit this year. I am wondering if this astringent Persimmon when turned color fully on the tree, does that mean it is ripe and non-astringent?

Good news that both my grafted persimmon has a lot of flower buds. Will let them fruit by doing ring cutting.