you plan on 2 dws?

I'd try to get that fridge up to the left of the sink.

then use lower area for ovens, counter and maybe a prep sink. counter could be used for coffee pot, toaster, snacks when not used for baking.

otherwise it's hard to say about the space w/out better measurements.

Some suggestions.

You can move the fridge to the end of the range counter, then move the ovens, where you have the fridge, have base cab(s) next to pantry and if you can get a wine fridge+fridge drawers like the one on the below link (under title Butler's Pantry) you can have those next to the ovens.

I never had 2 DWs. It makes sense to keep filling one until it's full and then start filling the other, but maybe you can consider moving one of the DWs to the island and use that for snack plates, pans, pots etc. and store those somewhere around that area. If you move the DW and the fridge in this way, it would be better to make that aisle wide enough to use both appliance comfortably at the same time.

I also moved the mudroom wall back a little and added a drop zone. Just and idea.

Here is a link that might be useful: wine fridgeand drawers

Your original layout is good. Don't muck it up.

Bottom: No to the spice rack. Spices belong in the prep zone. Put a spice drawer in the island. Search the forum for pics.

Top: Do a window straight down to counter height, with a small bump out behind for pots of herbs. Again, search the forum for counter height windows.

A tall hutch would be good there if you want one. Instead of shortening that run, can't you lengthen the bottom by moving the mud room door just a bit?

If you're really having two dishwashers, keep them where they are. Otherwise you will constantly be running around your kitchen playing where's Waldo. And the DW will end up in the prep zone and create traffic chaos. You can put a separate stash of snack or breakfast dishes elsewhere.

Island: You absolutely need trash there.

Double ovens are fine where they are.

My only issue is with your plans for the glass cab area. I'd devote that place to alcohol with a wine fridge. However, if you just keep extending it to fit all these extras, it will be off center from the DR table. Instead, as I said, I'd just move the mud room door to the left, carve out that corner of the mud room and use it to extend the counter next to the fridge. You can put breakfast, coffee and snack stations there. The prep sink is nearby to fill coffee pots. Do not design a kitchen around making sure that children have unimpeded access to stuffing their faces at all times.

Marcolo, I disagree with you re the double ovens. Having ovens next to a door with a landing spot at the back of the person using the ovens or at the edge of the island is not ideal imo, especially in a kitchen with quite a generous size.

It's a pantry door, not a traffic door. The ovens are fine where they are. The fridge in the pantry is an issue. It emits heat. Not good for food. And do you really need even more refrigeration with a 48'' fridge? No. With only 2-4 people in the family, the components and the kitchen are outsized. If this is for a 4200 sq foot house, then it's proportionate to the house size, but it's a lot of territory to clean.

I think your plan looks good. I would suggest:
- leave out the refrigerator in the pantry for now (plan electrical to add in the future if you want)
- maybe add window(s) on the range run, do you really need so many uppers?
- marcolo's ideas for a wine area/breakfast area are nice. We have a snack/breakfast/mw counter and it is helpful to have that traffic out of the main prep area.
Good luck!

Two things -

1 - do you need two dishwashers? It takes me and DH about 5 days to fill the dishwasher, and I eat almost all my meals at home.

2 - think about sliding the island sink down a bit. Your natural prep area will be the end of the island that's closest to the fridge, and that's pinched for space right now. You could center the sink or even have it off-center to give more prep space to its left.

Keep the 2 dw if you can. With 4 people in our house often the sink is filled to the brim with dirty dishes during the time it takes the dw to run a load (2:42). I unload and reload, often immediately running it again.

I think your initial plan is great. The only specific change I would make is to move the prep sink a smidge to give yourself a few more inches of countertop on the fridge side of the island.

Will the area next to the fridge be big enough to hold what you want to keep there? Consider coffeemaker, toaster, Sodastream, etc?

Thanks everyone, this is great feedback! I will return with a newer, more precise layout soon; my dad has AutoCad and can also get more measurements. Great ideas about adjusting the mudroom to get some more counter space as well. So generally people like the proportions (length vs depth) of the kitchen ?

We were NOT planning on two dishwashers, just one to the left of the clean up sink; the architect just drew that in on a whim. :) That said, I have never thought about it before and maybe it makes sense.

@sena01: Moving the mudroom wall back is a wonderful idea! I wonder if it would make sense to keep the drop zone part in the mudroom though. Need to think more about the mudroom layout in general. We'll likely remove the mudroom door as well, or make it sliding at least.

It makes sense to consider the landing area for the oven.

@marcolo: Spice drawer in the island makes sense. What do you mean the "DW" will end up in the prep zone and create traffic chaos? Isn't DW dear wife? That would be me! :) I agree if we had two dishwashers, they make sense where they are to the left and right of the clean up sink.

So either I could just keep the glass cab dedicated to alcohol and glasses, including one fridge drawer for beer and other beverages, or put a wine fridge/drawers combined unit directly next to the main fridge. But then what goes in the glass cab area, just glasses?

@hollysprings: The fridge in the pantry is also my architect's imagination, although I was toying with the idea of wine fridge in there, I guess that's not really a good idea either.

@Oaktown: I was planning on two windows on the sides of the cooktop.

Other good ideas:
* move fridge up to the left of the sink
* lower area for ovens, counter (coffee pot, toaster, snacks when not usd for baking, breakfast)?
* slide the island sink down a bit to get more prep space on the left of the sink.

This post was edited by girlguineapig on Sat, Dec 13, 14 at 12:30

No, moving fridge to the left of the sink is not a good idea. Mega zone crossing.

Not left of the clean up sink, move the fridge to the left so it's aligned more with the prep sink in the island (but fridge is still in bottom area).

I'm no expert so I only have 1 comment. I would consider a landing zone on at least one side of the ovens. I lived for 14 years with the range being open on one side and only about 8 inches of counter space on the other side. Having adequate landing space on both sides of my range was a must in our remodel.

The only thing I can offer is to figure out which ovens you'll be getting. Side-swing offerings are awfully nice and wouldn't work very well in the current location, swinging into pantry or fridge.

Regarding 2 dishwashers (DW), we're a family of five. I cook 1-3 meals daily and rarely run it more than once a day, which is overnight. I do have a fair amount of hand washing between aluminum, non-stick, and wood.

I wish I had 2 dishwashers - it would help keep my kitchen more tidy while the dishwasher is running and being unloaded. Plus if one ever breaks down, no panic.

If you are the cook in advance type, even just a little you'll appreciate 2 dishwashers even more. Except for breakfasts, I like to cook for the next couple days of meals. Cooking multiple meals overflows one dishwasher.

It's very helpful

[IMG]http://tralalatrilili.ml/7/f.png[/IMG]

The plan looks really nice. There is very little that needs changing.

I wouldn't worry about the location of the ovens. It's not a traffic door.

Walk-in pantries are awesome. Instead of a refrigerator in the pantry, plan on a freezer. Your refrigerator is large enough, but you will want extra freezer space. The pantry is a wonderful place for it. Otherwise, you will end up with one in the garage. The architect was right in including the additional cold food storage in the pantry. Just be sure you have adequate ventilation in the area and it will be fine.

Sometimes architects will surprise you. When we planned our master suite addition the architect included his and hers individual showers. What an inspired idea. I think the inclusion of two dishwashers for your growing family will prove to be inspired, too.

Be sure to carefully plan the trash space. Otherwise, it looks great.

Instead of a fridge in the pantry consider a non frost-free(manual) freezer. Frost-free can drastically shorten storage life because of the repeating warmups. Vacuum sealing helps but doesn't completely avoid the probs. Once a year defrost gives you true long-term quality storage. Just do it in January and you can use your garage.

I agree with Marcolo, Hollysprings and HomeChef59: your original plan is very good.

That said, I made a few minor modifications to the mudroom that allowed a few minor changes to the kitchen.

{{gwi:2140826}}

I altered the entry from the mudroom into the kitchen, moving the wall a couple feet into the mudroom and adding a pocket door. One less door swing in a fairly small space is a good thing, IMO, especially if you plan to keep this door open the majority of the time.

I also got rid of the side walls on either side of the glass cab in the dining area and at the end of the fridge run. IME, these walls make a space feel smaller and darker and I can't see what purpose they serve here.

Those small changes created room to enlarge the glass cabinet, making room for wine glass storage and a wine fridge here.

Just for grins, I also shifted the cook top towards the clean-up sink area and added 2 narrow windows on each side of it.

Plan B:

{{gwi:2140827}}

I moved the fridge to the end, creating a landing zone next to the ovens. It will also eliminate conflicts between fridge and oven doors (no chance for door dings).

And finally Plan C:

{{gwi:2140828}}

I swapped locations of shoe bench and closet in the mudroom. I shifted the garage entry towards the kitchen, giving more room between this door and bi-fold closet doors.

I also shifted the mudroom pocket door to the left, MOL centered between the fridge run cabs and the nook cabs.

Oops, I forgot to note that I moved coat hooks to the wall between garage and kitchen doors.

The last change is to the powder room lay-out. Because the shoe bench doesn't need as much depth as a closet, I was able to make the powder room wider. I also moved the sink to be across from the toilet, reducing the need for another wall jog (easier to frame).

There is a small area between mudroom closet and powder room that is dead space. However, if you were to narrow the closet slightly, you could create shelving in this area, similar to this:

[

[Traditional Bathroom[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-bathroom-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_712~s_2107) by London Interior Designers & Decorators Laura Hammett Ltd

That last change would enlarge the office closet and reduce the bookshelves slightly, but likely not enough to make a big impact.

As for adding a fridge or freezer to the pantry: if you do, talk to your HVAC crew to make sure this room has good circulation to handle the heat created by these appliances. The other option is to add freezer drawers to the kitchen.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Sun, Dec 14, 14 at 14:56

You've already received a lot of feedback, so I don't want to muck anything more up. Only observation is if the main person who does the dishes in your house is right-handed then dishwasher should be in the left side of the sink - contrary to what you might think. Because we tend to hold the dish with our non-dominant hand and scrub it with our dominant hand. So having the dish washer in left will help with loading for a right handed person.

Sorry, but I'm right-handed and I like my dishwasher on the right side of the sink.

I'm right handed. I've had my DW on the right side of my sink and on the left side. IMO, the more important factor in placement is to have it where it makes sense for the plan. In this case, if you do only one DW, I think putting it on the left side of the sink makes the most sense. That way you can use the counter to the right of your sink for a secondary prep zone. It will also make it easier to unload clean dishes into the cabs at the top end of the cook top run.

I like the suggestions made by lisa_a above for the mudroom and powder room. Just a quick comment on the two dw subject - I have a full dw by my clean-up sink and a half dw drawer in my island next to my prep sink. I have three children and only occassionally need the extra dw. I love though that it's not a full dw and I can run it when I have a smaller load or an overflow of glasses/cups/etc from the kids or an overflow due to a party, entertaining, etc. I used it a lot more frequently when my youngest was still on bottles and my top shelf seemed constantly full of baby/kid dishes.

Only thing I would say is, remember it's not just a kitchen that's being built here. The glass cupboard should be centered on the DR chandelier which should be centered on the Nanawall. The corners of the kitchen should end at the same spot-- the architect forgot this, too.

I love your layout!
I love the flow of kitchen to dining room area to familyroom.

From someone who has 2 DWs flanking the sink, I LOVE them!!!
- we use 1 daily
- and use the other one as a drying rack, so my countertop is nice and cleared.

The left DW is the one we use most often, because it's near the drawers where we keep our dishes/glasses.
But once a month, we would switch to the Right DW, so that the tubes/etc doesn't dry out, whatever, etc.

Then when we have parties, I get to load them both and dishes are done: Presto! Wahlah!!!

It doesn't really matter if you're right handed/whatever. You will get used to it regardless.

Yes, ditto on bringing the windows down to the countertop.
Heck, I would widen them; get rid of the uppers: you have plenty of storage.

I like lisa_a's Plan C for the mudroom.
don't just have a small closet, when the whole room can be storage: like lockers:

I like the original plan. It is luxurious beyond my means. But I think you will enjoy it. The one thing I do wonder about is the lack of windows on the stove wall (perhaps two narrow windows, one either side of the stove). Is there no view out that side of the house? Will all those people at the island counter really just want to watch the cooking?

lisa_a, thanks for all your illustrative ideas!

After a lot of thought, I think this is the layout we'll show our architect. With this layout we could even have no door to the mudroom from the kitchen (sliding door is still an option too). We also really wanted the powder room to be more of a square shape than rectangle. I think this one will be about 5' x 5'. The mudroom closet will be used much less than the shoe area so it makes sense to put it more to the side. I think this is a very functional layout! The disadvantage is that the kitchen isn't quite symmetrical (bottom and top sides) and the bottom doesn't get any more counter space, but I think this is the option we like the best.

I haven't had time to layout the kitchen yet but hopefully soon - I spent almost the whole day yesterday playing with the dimensions of the kitchen before concluding it was best as is. Thank you all for your input :)

@aokat15: A half dishwasher is an interesting idea. I will think about that more.

@huango: We are pretty torn between induction and gas and might end up having both just like you've suggested!

We will definitely have windows (probably 24" wide) on the sides of the cooktop.

I'm just slightly confused - where is the door to the powder room?

The doors to the power room and hall closet are on the left side. I just used a really basic image editor so couldn't really draw the doors. :P

huango, does a 36" induction + 15" gas hob really fit under a 48" hood? Otherwise, we were thinking either 30" induction + 15" gas or 36" induction + 12" gas. We like Miele for the induction and either Miele or Wolf for the gas part.

Wolf has a 15" "multifunction" gas unit. Can you not use the Wok units for cooking using things not in woks?

I'm not huango but I can answer your question. A 42" won't be large enough. You *might* get away with a 54" wide hood but since there will be a bit of counter between the induction and gas units, a 60" hood would be better, IMO.

Hmm, do I have space for that? The right side counter is 14' 2 1/4" (170.25 inches). We were planning on two 24" windows on each side of the range hood, and then some uppers. A standard cabinet width is 30"...

I guess I need to think about my upper cabinets.

Have you considered putting in a wine cellar?
If you are at all into wine or just starting to get into wine, you should seriously think about it... We started out with a few bottles and a small wine fridge. Then it was 100 bottles and a large wine fridge. Now we have resorted to keeping cheaper bottles in the garage.
It is definitely much easier to put a wine cellar in as you build a house than it would be to dig one later, so if you think your 40 bottles could someday be 200 or more you should consider it. Wine fridges only hold so much and sometimes you want to age a good red for 10-15 years.

Awesome layout btw! I am very curious where you can even find room for a new house of that size around here. I am in San Mateo, and the only new construction I ever see are tear downs on small/medium size lots.

Sorry to see you lost the configuration with the mud hall access to the backyard. In my opinion the kitchen is huge and you don't need so many uppers, get more windows and the large hood -- but I am short and therefore biased :-)

@robinlmorris: I'm glad you like the layout. :) Once we finish tweaking things a little more I plan to post it on the Building a Home forum again. As to your question, there are some nice flat quarter acre+ lots in Los Altos, Saratoga, Menlo Park, Palo Alto, and Mountain View.

I don't really think so about the wine collection. Half of our 40 wines are wines people brought at parties that are probably bad that we haven't gotten around to trying...it's difficult to open bottles when I can only drink about a glass myself. :)

@Oaktown: I'm about 5' 4" so not that tall myself! My SO is 6'. That said, I just really need uppers for dishes and glasses and stuff, probably. Since we have a pretty nice pantry, a lot of stuff that usually goes in cabinets would go in there. But, we could always have bigger windows instead of a bigger range! I'm not sure if there's a big benefit between 12" and 15" wok/gas hobs. We are Chinese and Vietnamese-American and do all kinds of cooking.

few more things:
1. Hey, I'm Chinese/Vietnamese; DH is Dominican. Kids are Chino-Latino!

2. So, if you cook authentic food, you're going to need a high power CFM hood.
Mine is 42" 1100CFM over 36" induction. It catches so much grease, steam, smell.
We fried up salmon fillets last night and it only smells like fish in the trash can. Everything else got sucked up into the hood!

--> A 30" induction + 15 wolf gas hob would fit nicely under at 48" wolf hood.
Wolf has great 48" hoods w/ 1500 CFM! (may need make-up air for California code: read about it)

http://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Wolf%3BWidth%3A+42%22+-+48.9%22%3BRange+Hoods/brand_store~1%3BN~32+4294836196+771

3. I love our dish/glass drawers in the base cabinets.
My kids can unload the dishwasher as their chores, and can reach for their own plates/glasses, etc.
Kids and I are short.
We have almost no upper cabinets in our kitchen, but we do have a 23feet wall of windows!!!

Put a dish drawer at the end of your island facing the cleanup sink. That + the drawer next to the left DW can be your basic everyday use plates/dishes/glasses.
{{gwi:2140830}}

Amanda

Thanks huango! I think deciding on the window size/placement is one of he higher priority decisions. I'm also really not sure what size prep and clean up sinks we need.

Currently we only use our dishwasher as a drying rack though I grew up running the dishwasher. It'd probably be too hard to convince my SO to have two full dishwashers but I'm really intrigued by the idea of a dishwasher drawer or 18" dishwasher as a secondary.

For the 5' beverage area we are thinking 24" wine fridge, 15"-18" beverage fridge, and 15" for the bar sink. Combination of Subzero, U line, True, Marvel, Perlick, or Danby.

Does a door from the pantry to the backyard/vegetable garden make sense? Or total waste of space? Or perhaps just a small window on that side?

Thumbs up from me on the pantry/garden door. I'd probably want the pantry door to be a pocket door in that case, though.

Are you working out your landscape design at the same time as the house? Maybe not the particular plantings, but will you have a patio for entertaining? where do you plan to grill? Might you want an outdoor sink accessible to both grill and garden? Easier and cheaper to integrate such things into your plan now.

[OT but a big vote from me for an outdoor sink. We have one on the covered porch and even my father (who initially found the idea strange) now thinks it is the Best Thing Ever. More convenient than the garden hose and absolutely safer for drinking!]

Um, no. You're essentially getting rid of the pantry and turning it into another mud room plus garden shed. You've also completely ruined your kitchen layout because you've made a non-traffic door into a traffic door. Now your workspace is compromised and you have to move the oven. Plus, you need a special kind of door to do an outward swing. Just no.

You could instead put a door to the left of the range. Make the sink run straight with no corner. This way you could bring dirty vegetables straight to the main sink for washing.

Hmm yeah that's pretty convincing. I think we'll pass on extra doors.

@Oaktown: We haven't thought too much about the outdoors yet but should probably start thinking about it!

Ooh, I like marcolo's door placement suggestion much better. If you're not too concerned about air sealing, maybe a dutch door with glazed upper? You still have time to change your mind :-)

[But I am a fan of doors and some here would say we have an appalling number of doors in our house.]

This post was edited by Oaktown on Wed, Dec 17, 14 at 17:54

I used a stackable beverage refrigerator/wine storage. This allowed me to have a bar sink, area to store liquor and glasses, and a small stack of drawers in a small area. If you put the beverage refrigerator on the bottom, the children can access it. Put the wine storage on top out of the way of little hands.

This particular arrangement is a Marvel. It slides in, it is not a built in.

Brilliant suggestion, Marcolo!

I drew it up:

{{gwi:2140831}}

A French door will bring in light on that side of the house, allowing you to save the wall around the range for either upper cabs or that massive hood you were considering.

Getting an outswing door in a temperate climate shouldn't be an issue (we have one, live one state above you). You'll want to ask about having pins added to the hinges so that the door can't be taken off its hinges by a burglar for entry into your home. Other than that, it's not a big deal and definitely saves floor space.

The other pluses of this plan are that it creates symmetry between range wall and island and that it eliminates a corner for upper and lower cabs. Corner cabs are not the most efficient use of storage space and the mechanisms to make that storage more accessible is not inexpensive.

If you tweak the clean-up sink wall slightly, you'd have symmetry on that wall, too. IMO, adding that symmetry will take attention away from the asymmetry of the upper and lower walls (not that I think that's a big deal at all).

Adding to lisa_a's post, if you get that door as part of a window package, some manufacturers (Marvin, Loewen) offer the multipoint lock outswing as a standard option.

Hmm I like the symmetry this idea offers as well as the elimination of corners. But I worry this doesn't leave enough counter space on the sides of the cooktop. The right side is 145.25 inches to the corner currently.

Really like the door placement idea. Looks like if you match the range counter top to the island width, you have 8'6" of length. Subtracting 3' for your 6-burner range top, you are left with 5'6, or 33" on either side, which seems enough to me considering you don't have a prep sink there or anything.

FYI, I have a similar cabinet layout w/island, parallel cabinets, wall cabinets etc. but with appliances shuffled and it's working out well so far. We have a 12' long "continent" with a 48" range embedded. Prep zone to the right is 4' long but includes 15" sink.

{{gwi:2140832}}