I only use the cu. ft. measurement as a guideline. Sometimes those cubic feet aren't where you want or need them. Depending on your storage needs, some models have more or less door storage for smaller bottles and other items. My DIL bought an Electrolux full depth French door 22cu. ft. last year and it only had one shelf which could take a gallon jug of milk, but in adjusting that one shelf, the others became unusable for anything more than pancakes...only a slight exaggeration. She did exchange that fridge for a GE Profile which had a better shelf arrangement, although they were both nominally the same 22 cu. ft.

I find the cubic foot measurement to be almost useless. Think about what you want to store and how the space is arranged, particularly how many of those cubic feet are consumed by hardware or useless gimmicks. How it "seems" is actually a much better indication, as what you are doing is mentally stacking stuff into the available spaces to see how it fits. When shopping take along an empty milk jug and soda bottle to get an idea of what fits where. I find that in most fridges you need to pull at least one shelf out entirely to create useful space. I've been amazed how much more food can be put into the used subzero we bought than in a supposedly larger KitchenAid we had before-- all of the available space is useful and not filled with bulbous plastic extrusions.

Thank you zeetree. I did not know Miele was built by bosch. I will have to look at the bosch fridges...

The Miele is built in the same factory that Bosch, Thermador and Gaggenau are built. They are built to quite different specifications using different parts.

Good luck!

I have a Thermador and find the useful space is very good. The drawers are huge -- and we can still fill them. Pretty much agree with zeetree except that I cannot vouch for SZ's having a better or worse air treatment. I got the Thermador when they were the only ones doing the fully flush, no overhead vent, etc. Thermador was the first one made --the other brand badging came later. Until then, I didn't want a built-in fridge because I hated the vent panel above. The SZs I looked at had ice at the very bottom -- too low to be practical for tall Texans who use a lot of ice in summer. You should be very happy with either or any variation on the Thermador.

So... here's another riddle with cubic feet- the Liebherr 24" fully integrated freezer has 7.8 cu ft of space, and the Miele 18" fully integrated freezer has 8.0 cu ft of space.... how is this possible????

Quality of insulation can make a difference as well as how they measure the space. Really have to see how usable it is.

The number one thing is that the Liebherr HF861 and the Miele F1413SF aren't in the same category of freezer columns. You would not want a Liebherr freezer column next to a Miele, Sub-Zero, Bosch, Viking etc. It would just look funny. The Liebherr is for a 70" high cabinet slot and the Miele for an 84" high cabinet slot.

The Liebherr uses a much different method of insulation - one that requires the sidewalls, and rearwall to be a little more than twice as thick to achieve the same results as the Miele. The Miele has walls approximately 2" thick. The center interior width on the Liebherr is about 14", and the center interior width on the Miele is a little under 14". When you factor in that the cabinet depth is about the same - I'm not surprised that the Miele has more cubic footage with it's increased height.

The Miele has 2 baskets, one a bit larger than the other, the ice maker, and 4 shelves (three of which are adjustable), as well as 4 adjustable door racks. The Liebherr has 7-1/2 clear drawers plus the ice maker, No shelves on the door or on the unit. To store a turkey you will have to remove 2 drawers on the Liebherr. To store a large frozen pizza in one you will have the same issue.

so @zeetree do you think I should go with the miele 30" fridge, which I love, and the miele 18" freezer which gives me some drawers (I like the organization ability of the Liebherr drawers) but more actual space even though it is only 18"?

Interestingly, I went to the store today and compared the produce drawers of miele, thermador, gaggenau, bosch & subzero. The miele has the deepest drawers by far.

Something Trevor from Eurostoves (active on GW) did to show refrigerator capacity is fill them up with single serve water bottles, mostly on their sides, I think, to actually fill the space. This doesn't take into account if there's a tall enough area to defrost a big turkey, or a safe place for the eggs (my mother's 1965 SZ had a special egg basket. Not cups. Just a basket that was the right size for a couple dozen eggs. It was great!). This is just a capacity comparison based on what you can fit, rather than the specs, which are based on total volume minus displacement. Many fridges have unusable space, which further confounds the issue.

Bonnie, I think you'd do well to take a bunch of empty containers, unbreakable dishes and bottles to the showroom and see how they fit in the Liebherr vs. the Miele. That will give you the best answer. If the Miele holds enough, it would solve your space issue, too.

plllog I saw the gaggenaus in action too :) . Definitely impressed!!!! I had pretty much decided against the steam oven, but the salesman showed me how 3 half sheet pans fit in there, and I was oooohing & ahhhhhing like a kid in a candy shop! I don't know what to do!!!! Now I am wondering if a single regular gag plus the steam gag might just be the way to go. It really does fit so much more than I thought!

Firstly, I think the Bosch made columns (which include the Miele) are far superior to the Liebherr (which IMO is not in the same quality category).

Personally, I have gone back and forth many times between the Sub-Zero columns and the Bosch made ones. They are both as good as it gets. We currently have the non-columnar Sub-Zero, and my father has the columnar Sub-Zero. My sister has the Miele columns in her kitchen and even a Liebherr in her utility. When I have spoken to any owner of the Mieles and Sub-Zeros they have all loved them. Even if there is one feature here or there I think I would love that one had and the other didn't - I suspect I'd ultimately be happy with either - and I don't think you would be any different. Whether it's a car or a refrigerator or a house, there are always things we think we have to have that ultimately we don't end up feeling the same about. Conversely there are things we accept as "coming with" something that until we get them and use them we don't fully appreciate.

Like the Sub-Zero air treatment? There you go. If you were trimming out a kitchen with other appliances from the same brand (or continent) - even that can sway the decision. If the price was equal (which it's not) I'd say get the Gaggenau and the stainless interior. But, it sounds like you like the Miele baskets, and that is why it is probably the one for you.

the gaggenau had a few things i didn't like- 1) the drawers have metal pulls- those things get cold!!!! my fingertips did not appreciate it when I reached into the fridge to open the drawers. They did not have a freezer on the floor so I couldn't try that, but I suspect I would be frostbitten lol. 2) the freezer is set up so that the ice maker and drawer are front and center and take up a lot of space.(see pic) I think that design is poor because it makes a large part of the freezer unusable. I much prefer the setup of the miele freezer.

I'm surprised they haven't fixed that icemaker thing! They put that there so they could offer through the door. The Miele icemaker is small, but I use the whole width drawer to store ice. Just transfer it over from the center bin in the middle of the drawer. (The center bin has the pip that engages the ice maker so has to stay.) The ice maker probably not all that different from the Gaggenau (only shorter looking), but Miele has the two drawers on either side and shelf on top, that makes it all much more useful. I have butter in one of the drawers, which is great, so it doesn't get pushed to the back and squished. The other drawer has first aid coldpacks and plastic ice gel cubes which are great for burns (not cold enough to make frostbite).

The main thing about the Gaggenaus is the stainless interior. If you have a family member who has a compromised immune system and you really need to be able to disinfect it entirely, that's the way to go. I think you may also be able to kasher it (though why you'd need to is beyond me since you have to wrap foods for the freezer anyway).

Re the combi-steam, yes, nothing is like seeing it. I'm glad you found a place! I'm thinking about doing the turkey parts in it again for Seder this year (last time was 1.5 good sized turkeys). You can disassemble the racks and screen, but not the fan or drain. Do you think you can kasher it? Or aren't that strict? It doesn't get hot enough to kasher by heat alone. Some hold by a good scrub and steam cleaning. If that's sufficient for you, it can't be a bad choice. Just think really well about how you cook and what the limits are for you. (I also found buying the extra 2/3 pans was a really good idea. I have a couple of half sheets, but find them frustrating compared to the 2/3. I like the 1/3 pans, too, but don't use them as often.)

plllog Im pretty sure as long as it has a self-clean cycle that's all you need to do other than not using it for 24 hours beforehand. Temp goes up to 550 degrees- that is definitely hot enough to kosher.

Side note- fridges never get hot, so they don't need to be koshered, only wiped down.

I bet turkey legs would do well in a steam oven.

how big is your miele freezer & fridge? do you like them?

Are you sure the temperature on the combi-steam goes to 550? Mine only goes to 450, but the newer one might go higher. It doesn't have self clean--I remember checking that in the manual online. Some people are a lot fussier than others and there are as many different rulings as there are rabbis. Just check it out to be sure it'll do what you need, and also that you'll be able to kasher for Pesach if you ever think you'll stay home.

It depends on how treif a fridge gets as to whether you'd want to kasher it. :) But if you double wrap everything, it doesn't matter. :)

My Miele all fridge and all freezer are 30" each. I'm very happy with them. I had assumed I was getting SubZero but I couldn't make them fit with everything else I wanted (they didn't have 30"). Then, poof!, demo models of the Miele showed up in showrooms and angels sang. It took me a long time to realize they were the same box as BSH because they're so different. I've been very happy. Except I froze the fan and evaporator by using the supercool in the freezer too much. Defrosting fixed it, but it happened over a holiday, and it was panic inducing. Love the lighting. Love the many different heights for the shelves so they can really be custom. Love the drawers. Love the lighting. I sometimes wish I had bigger, but they do fine for what fits. :)

Regarding the combo-steam - both Miele and Gaggenau have cleaning cycle functionality that are almost great but not quite awesome. The convection and grill units are still stopped at 450f but their conventional bake does allow a 550f setting - which is also where the cleaning cycle goes. YMMV as I can only speak to their current US units. Having said that, at the kitchen show in Cologne just a few weeks ago - Gaggenau introduced a new unit for the EU market in late 2015 that has true cleansing capability AND that is presumably Kasher (while not outright claimed it was inferred). See this: http://www.livingkitchen-cologne.com/en/livingkitchen/fuer_besucher/presseinformationen_der_aussteller/index.php?aktion=pfach&p1id=kmliv143&format=html&base=&tp=km8content&search=&pmid=km.kmliv143_1421430189&start=0&anzahl=5&channel=liv&language=e&archiv=

How long it takes bosch to bring it to the US and pass UL standards if ever is still unknown. But since we are talking about state-of-the-art units it would be incomplete without adding these.

regarding the 18" freezer - there is no problem saying go for it! Look at a number of 48" combo units in comparison WITH your measuring tape and you will see what I mean. A Miele 18" is a fine purchase. And you have the garage unit! So who cares? One enters the freezer for items other than ice on a highly irregular basis. The garage is not a huge inconvenience for those items. Not at all - whereas ice would be.

I agree. With a freezer in the garage, 18" should be okay. The question is, can you fit it with a 36" fridge. :)

I trust you, who have seen it in person. Perhaps the manual hasn't caught up?

The current manual for the following Gaggenau combi-steam units, currently available in the US, shows fewer features:

BS 470/471 610
BS 474/475 610
BS 484/485 610
Combi-steam oven

There is no conventional baking mode. There is no mode that shows a temperature above 450 degrees. There is a cleaning assist mode that heats up the oven, presumably with steam, to make it easier to clean, but it's a manual clean, not pyrolytic, and requires manual cleaning. In my experience, it's not all that hot--i.e., one can put one's arm inside to scrub after heating.

This model issue does have the "grill" (aka broiler) and a slow cooking rather than dishwarming mode (think warming drawer). It otherwise seems to be much the same as mine.

In Europe, they also sell model 450, which is a stripped down version.

The Miele may have those other features, and the show models only Gaggenau may tap dance too (I tried Zeetree's link but couldn't get it to load completely). If you've seen one that does these things (go up to 550 and have self cleaning) in the showroom, all the better.

Before buying one of the currently available models, just make sure that it's suitable for your needs. You're not going for OU certification here. :) Just make sure it'll do what you need. (If you want to toss the cat amongst the chickens, just ask a bunch of balabustas if you can kasher a microwave.)

sorry - here's a link that does work on the late 2015 model Gaggenau Combi-Steam

http://tinyurl.com/q33yo5o

Are you sure you weren't looking at the listing for the regular oven? I hate to be so disagreeable, but I feel like I'm in an alternate reality looking at different information than you and Zeetree (though I think Zeetree was talking about the Miele, and just thought it also applied to Gaggenau. Miele might be something for you to look at).

The Gaggenau US website, on the description, says the combi-steam goes to 450 F, except for a lesser model which says 445 F. The German site says they all go to 230 C (446 F). That's functionally the same temperature limit for all of the combi-steam models, in two languages. I haven't found anywhere that Gaggenau says the currently available combi-s go above 450. This is why I've been concerned about kashering. You could still do the boiling water version, though I don't know to make that work for the ceiling, but I wouldn't try the torch, and neither account for the fan, which I just don't think can be kashered. Perhaps there's a certain length of time you could run it at top temperature and full steam that would count for ritually kosher, including the fan. Perhaps it's worth asking your rabbi. I know steam cleaning counts in certain circumstances.

I know people whose minhag is wait 24 hours without heating. I know people who keep otherwise kosher but don't worry about the oven at all, beyond cleaning it normally (not talking self clean). If I were keeping kosher, however, I would designate a combi- either milk or meat and not use it for Pesach, unless the steam cleaning thing were approved.

This is a very expensive toy to make a mistake on. Just be sure you're comfortable with what it is and does, and that the information you have is correct. Maybe you can call the showroom to confirm the temperatures with a rep there who can look at the actual oven? Or call BSH and find out if there's a change which hasn't been reflected in the literature?

You may want to consider what kind of food you store:frozen vs fresh. I find that some makes and models may be good at creating usable space in the freezer, sometimes at the expense of the fresh (refrig) side. We recently replaced a Samsung slide by side (a piece of crap) with a GE Profile side by side. I can't speak to the durability of the GE yet, however the configuration on the refrigerator side is much better. The shelves on the doors are deeper and hold quite a lot. It's much easier to locate and access fresh food. The LED lighting is well located and bright in both compartments. Have to say that the freezer side isn't as roomy as the Samsung. The ice cube maker in the GE model takes up a lot of space and the wire bins, which hold a lot of frozen meats, etc. trend to fall off the tracks. So depending on your needs- more frozen, less refrigerated or less frozen, more refrigerated, could impact your decision making.

check this out- might put one of these in my walk in pantry to make up for 18" freezer- love the flexibility of it!

Ah. But you notice it says the convection and grill--the two heating elements--go to 450° F. So I tried to find out what "electronic precision temperature control" is. Mostly, it's Gaggenau verbiage. The other things that come up on search are sensors. I do not know this for fact--it's worth a call to BSH, Purcell Murray, or at least the showroom you visited, to find out for sure--but I'm thinking it's the temperature sensor that keeps the vaunted Gaggenau evenness, and probably the same exact one that's in the regular oven which does go up to 550° F. That is purely speculation on my part, but AJMadison has it listed at 450° F for the combi-steam. Perhaps that's just someone overcorrecting the copy to make it match, but it might also be because they're 'net sellers and don't want people assuming it goes up to 550°. I did a data search of the manual and the number 550 wasn't found anywhere.

This is an empirical question. There is a concrete answer. Ask someone who actually has the unit installed to see what comes up on the screen. :)

Re the freezer that this thread is ostensibly about, yes, the F&P cool drawer is very cool! I didn't realize what a wide temperature range it has, from freezing to chilling red wine. Wine tasting one night, ice cream social the next. :) The one caveat is that there's sure to be a certain amount of heat exhaust. My fridge drawers do warm up my cutting boards. :) If your pantry will be housing other things than food, whether holiday dishes or paper goods or less used small appliances, I suggest putting them next to the cool drawer. That's the deal with fridges in pantries altogether, but when it's built into the same area, it's more significant.

ok so the oven likely does not reach 550. does it do 85 in case I ever want to dehydrate something? I'm not sure I want to, but just asking.

I am concerned about the kosher thing with the steam oven... I will have to ask a rabbi if it is possible to use for both meat & dairy. The fact that it steams might make things tricky.

There are issues with dehydrating in ovens as opposed to dehydrators. They're built to retain moisture rather than drive it away. I'm no expert, but some of it depends on what you want to dry, how dry you want it, and how picky you are. But, yes, it does 85°, whether you want it for dehydrating or plate warming or a little warmer for yoghurt. Mine goes from 85-220° by fives, and from 220-450 by tens. I don't know if that's exactly the same for the new models but the range is the same: 85-450. Some of the modes, like regenerate, have a limited section of that span.

BTW, I saw something in my manual which I think meant that the steam cleaning assist program on my model runs at 140° F.