well, the rocky mtn. strains of douglas fir are cut for timber all the time so in theory using suitably adapted types for such in your area IF all other conditions are good AND you can find the right seed source should not be a problem. some general considerations that might be useful to look at---(very)sandy soil may not be good---if it's low in nutrients and drains really quickly then you will either have to do some summer watering (and maybe some fertilizing as well) at least until well after initial establishment and maybe for the life of the tree if it's roots can't reach a good moisture source below the sandy dry level. while most pine family members prefer good drainage many also need deep moist soil as well. douglas fir in most all forms is a "mesic" species in more arid situations and a (somewhat) more xeric species in very moist climates. certainly in areas with rainfall below about 25" or so it will normally best grow in relatively cool moist but well-drained sites with deep soils. since you are in a cold place successful siting will probably require a cold wind sheltered spot to help at least a little for the new seedlings especially. frankly, you might want to think about using the rocky mountan or black hills forms of ponderosa pine (p. ponderosa ssp. scopulorum) instead as it's probably somewhat more tolerant of sandy soils than the "fir". just some thoughts which may (or may not) be of use to you. good luck.

Thanks George. Long-time readers of this forum under its GardenWeb incarnation will know I've planted thousands of seedlings-with great success-up at this land. Your suggestions point at a beginner which I am most definitely not. Likewise, while I described my soil as "sandy", this is in comparison to the heavy, clay-based stuff where I live. The soil at this planting site supported things like alfalfa, corn, etc in the recent past and is actually very-nearly an even mixture of sand and silt. Finally, I did indeed plant a few-perhaps a couple hundred-Ponderosa pine back in this project's early days. They're doing alright but are no match for some of the other conifers planted there. My growth leaders, for example, are hybrid larch (Larix marschlinsii), Norway spruce, (Picea abies), and red pine (Pinus resinosa). I know you were only trying to help, but I really do wish to learn more about the various offerings of Pseudostuga at this time. Other times, I've asked about other things. And still more often, I'm here helping to answer other folks' questions!

This is an excellent example of the growing pains we are likely to experience as the Houzz and GardenWeb people get acquainted.

+oM

sorry, If I'm not being helpful (BTW I've been of GW for quite some time on and off as well as "georgeinbandon,oregon" ) but I had no idea from the rather general info provided in your initial post of exactly what your conditions are and exactly what you are really looking for to deal with them so my answers must of a matter of course be rather general in response. that said, if the ponderosa pine is not doing well for you in your specific site for whatever environmental/climatic reasons there's a chance that the douglas fir may not be suitable for your purposes in that site either. FWIW, if you are looking for specific potentially suitable ecotypes you might try Lawyer Nurseries in Montana and see If they might have suitable seedling and/or seed selections that might work for you and your situation. good luck and good growing.

Thanks again, George. Did not recognize the screen name, but yes, georgeinbandon....rings a bell. Quite true, some of my initial statements were vague. Further, I wish I wouldn't have said anything about timber harvest, etc. since that's only served to throw things further off-course. What I'm trying to get across is that this is a reforestation-or aforestation, to be totally correct-project, not some landscaping around my house.

The ponderosa pines have exceeded my expectations. That species can be terribly plagued by a number of needle blights in this region, but whether because I selected for somewhat better resistance to those pathogens, by using the S. Dakota strain, or just dumb luck, so far so good. The only thing they are not doing is growing as fast as those other species I mentioned. But they're looking fine and I'm glad I planted them.

Furthermore, I've known about Lawyer for years, perhaps decades. But you're right-they are the kind of outfit which could cater to geeks like me. I also like the U. of Idaho stuff out of Moscow. May send them an inquiry at some point. But as far as my questions here, I like to discuss this kind of stuff with this group of people. Of course there are, and I have used, other sources in my wide ranging projects. but this thread was started specifically to see what folks here on the conifers forum might have to contribute.

Incidentally, I chuckled to myself when I selected S. Dakota gene lines for those ponderosas, in that the blurb with the catalog listing described them as having greater tolerance to atmospheric moisture. I've been in S. Dakota, and there's nothing about it that remotely made me think of humidity, although all is relative.

And speaking of the fast growers I do have going there, I should also have mentioned white pine. It's hard to pick a clear winner, in terms of height increment, between those, the red pines, and the Norway spruces. Last summer was cool and moist there and some of my Norway spruce grew about four feet. Meanwhile, the hybrid larch easily outpace them all. Many, planted in spring of 08, as seedlings smaller than a pencil, are now twenty feet tall. That variety is simply amazing, plus has, IMO, superior aesthetic qualities to either parent-Japanese larch or European. Truly amazing trees.

+oM

interesting. the "hybrid larch" is also a major forestry species in the u.k. with a generally milder climate than you have to deal with so it's obviously adaptable. if you can do white pine (pinus strobus) you might also consider southwestern white pine (p. strobiformis) and interior ("inland empire") forms of western white pine (p. monticola) and while you're at it plus maybe selections of pinus nigra and p. thunbergii. mountain white fir (abies concolor) and/or corkbark fir (abies lasiocarpa ssp. arizonica)---think concolor was once apparently sold as a shelter belt plant in parts of the Midwest. finally, if you haven't already, the junipers (aka "cedars") juniperus virginiana and j. scopulorum are regarded as very tough plants. FWIW, the online publication "alternative conifers for Michigan landscapes" suggests Alaska cedar (chamaecyparis nootkatensis) as a good fast growing tree for up there at least---who knew??? as a long shot you might also consider the "Siskiyou mountains cypress---cupressus bakeri ssp. matthewsii---supposedly the hardiest of the "true cypresses---if you can find it.

Interesting ideas, those last two The only Cuppresaceae I ever tried there-besides the fact that my adjacent woods is nearly all Thuja occidentalis-was a joke I played on myself with Chamaecyparis lawsoniana 'Oregon Blue'. I did not expect survival....and I was right! Still, the thought of a glaucous tree with otherwise more or less the same form and foliage of the Thuja was too much for me to resist. It probably didn't help that last winter, the one they were exposed to, was very cold.

I'm not a fan of Pinus nigra. They've become unsuitable in this area with all the Dothiostroma and Diplodia and other needle blights in full force. Not worth the trouble these days. Abies concolor has long been one of my favorite conifers but I don't usually see greatperformance out of them, or I should say, it's about a 50/50 chance-you either end up with a well-formed and beautiful tree or a multi-leadered, chlorotic thing.

Truth be told, other than a fir or fir-like species, aka Doug. fir, I'm about done with conifers up there. Latter-day plans call for pockets of hardwoods, mainly beech and yellow birch, but that really is for later. theother thing, and this I'll be doing for as long as I can wield a shovel, is moving some of those Thujas up from where they're coming in too thick up into the field area, in and amongst all these other conifers. I can't kill those things, and that despite a large deer herd. That is the mystery of my property....why the deer there don't eat "white cedar" as it's locally known, and which is generally the deer version of an icecream cone.

+_oM

FWIW, chamaecyparis lawsoniana (aka "port orford cedar"---the parent of "oregon blue" , named for the town 25 miles south of us) is native here on my property---still a fair amount of it around though many throughout its range have been killed by an introduced root rot. since you (for better or worse and the deer, willing) have success with the thuja---have you tried the so-heavily hyped "green giant hybrid? beyond the "true" firs have you considered/tried picea engelmannii, picea glauca, or tsuga canadensis or perhaps even cedrus libani ssp. stenocoma in a sheltered spot. OTOH, was rather surprised to read somewhere recently that metasequoia was actually a much hardier than expected to cold and might be worth a shot with you if you don't have it growing already???

apropos of nothing, my conifer plantings are mostly mexican and californian (various pines and cupressus mostly) and southern hemisphere.(podocarpus, araucaria, phyllocladus, dacrycarpus).

BTW, if you're still into such things the book "native trees for north american landscapes" by guy sternberg is a very useful and beautifully illustrated book for both conifers and broad-leaves in the wild and in cultivation for the area from the atlantic to the rockies and beyond.

best wishes.

Interesting conversation...

rainfall data where increased rainfall from the seed-strain of P.men.var.gl. is going to be the way to go. Finding the data for summer months may be most pertinent. We all know you're going to get plenty of snow!

I really don't have more to contribute to the current conversation, however, I wouldn't be planting Douglas fir - I'll say that. I would choose a true fir. And for speed and longevity as well as color; heat and cold hardiness... it's for me a no-brainer: Abies balsamea var. phanerolepis. Find a source that will hand-pick more blue than green-seedlings if that's a diversification-priority.

Dax

wisconsitom, I have 2-needle Dakota-sourced Ponderosa pine, and so far resists needlecast better than Jeffrey pine. The lowest branches have been infected, but not so virulently as Jeffrey. Still, I'd put it in the same class as blue spruce and Douglas fir -- not really a good tree to plant here.

Goerge: Yes, Canadian hemlock is native there, and present in good numbers. It will always be part of the scene, insomuch as I control what happens. I've planted a few Picea glauca. I like them very much, although I prefer the Norway spruce. So I've got both! As far as 'Green Giant', I was an early and enthusiastic admirer, and much less so now. Last winter-that one that was so crazy cold-really did a number on the handful I've got there. It quickly made me re-learn what I've already known, that the native version (Thuja occidentalis) is superior in all respects...for that part of the world. And since I've got literally thousands of those there, I won't be re-visiting GG. Pretty much the same story with dawn redwood. I was all geeked out about those things, but truth is, Z4 near Suring, Wisconsin (put your finger on a map on Green Bay, and just go due north a little bit), is much too cold for that tree. Out of the whopping three that I installed, two are dead and the one that isn't needs to die...soon. Just not happy up there. Maybe a more sheltered spot but I had mine right out in the open. In any case,
I don't need them.

Dax: I agree fully with your suggestion of Abies balsamea var. phanerolepis. I like them very much and would sooner put in some of those than the abundant straight-species balsam fir, which I like too, and which are considered "weed trees" by locals and loggers and so on. Itasca's got some nice strains of Canaan fir. It's only a matter of time until I pull the handle and get some of those going. Also, family members want us to have a place to go cut our own Xmas trees, and I concur with that idea. Also, that's a great suggestion-to correlate seed strain, should I go with Pseudotsuga, with summer precip patterns. Makes great sense.

Beng: thanks for that update. To be honest, I thought my ponderosas had predominantly 3-needle clusters. Now I'm going to have to recheck. In any case, the inclusion of those was just a kick I was on back in 08 when we started this project. I'm glad I have them, like I said, but that's it. There won't be more. Besides, if it's a "hard pine" you're after, our own native red pine, of which we planted 3000 last year, are the way to go. There's a reason they get planted everywhere you look......they grow!

Thanks for the commentary, folks. This is just fun stuff for me. In reality, if I never lift a finger again up there, the die is already cast. It's going to be great. Already is, in fact. And with that 6000 (total) we planted recently, big chunks of that former farm field are going to be changing rapidly in the next few years. Not to mention, all the allowances we've made for natural invasion by the paper birches, balsam poplars, white cedar, white pine, and what have you, from the adjacent woods.

+oM

I know the glaucus, Rocky Mtn. forms are the preeminent choice

===>>>>

i have a good number of the named 'blue' ones ... a visiting west coaster was rather startled at my success with such ... i have no clue about understock ...

very few C laws survived in my cold z5 MI ....

ken

Yep, any sourced that get's the highest amount of rainfall.

Dax

FWIW, I'm feeling pretty darn cold right now...and I'm certainly eastern w/in North America at least...but Pseudotsuga menziesii of either type are rare as hen's teeth south of the Mason-Dixon. Something to bear in mind. It's a shame they don't hybridize with the Asian ones.