I really don't understand how my husband and I can be the only people in
the world who manage to cook European, Asian, Middle Eastern, and other
cuisines every day without ever having had special burners, a
convection oven, or a microwave. In our current house, our apparently
piddling 9,000 BTU or so burners (it's an old stove, I don't know what
they actually are but it was one of the cheapest stoves on the market)
have always worked just fine for everything from simmer to stir fry.
There's a broiler area at the bottom of the stove and it works fine. The
controls are on the side of the stove; if they were on top they'd get
accidentally bumped all the time. We have a 30" wide stove in a 71" wide
space, so we can easily get to the sides and if we wanted a larger
stove, there would be no problem fitting it in.

I turn around the baked goods once during baking to make them brown
evenly. We wipe off the top of the stove every day after dinner, and
every few months we lift the top off and vacuum up the loose crud. We've
never had a gas leak, a fire, or any other problems with danger and
disaster, or health issues from our kitchen. The stove and the
refrigerator stick out from the wall a bit more than if they were built
in, but so what?

I suspect manufacturers don't spend much more to manufacture higher-end
units but they can sell them for much more if there are more features,
even if the features are unnecessary. I agree they are in business to
make money, but I can't help feeling screwed over. My husband and I are
not afraid to use technology--we've both spent years working in Silicon
Valley, especially in R & D labs. But we want technology to be
functional and not have unnecessary features. Buying expensive items
just because they're trendy is silly. Check out the reviews on sites
like Home Depot. You'll see that plenty of people just want basic,
functional, non-trendy, durable appliances.

It's now looking like, after spending over $1.3 million on a house where
we hoped to do little more than reflooring three carpeted rooms in oak
and a small amount of deferred maintenance, plus painting in our
favorite colors, we'll now have to remodel the entire kitchen just to
get the inexpensive freestanding appliances we want. (Well OK, we're
also throwing out all the seller's overpriced melamine closet systems,
which fill two rooms each the size of a modest bedroom, with windows and
everything. We're putting in simple closets with doors that actually
keep the light and dust off the clothes and where the arrangement
doesn't force us to count the number of clothes of each length we
have.)

So I'm resigned. We're now having to remodel an entire kitchen so we can
get a basic, functional, $500 or so stove that actually works for our
cooking style and a refrigerator that has a freezer that's actually big
enough and convenient to reach. (It is *so* built in there are *very*
few options for replacements and they all have the same style freezer.)
At least we can get rid of that granite-topped kitchen island and put in
a freestanding wooden table where we can actually sit to fold
potstickers and eat breakfast. It's a pity we'll have to remove all the
cabinets and current high-end appliances to do that, because I doubt
they have much if any resale value. But our plans are just as valid as
the remodeling of the people who want to throw out all the stuff we want
and put in something trendy. My husband and I are not trendy, but we
will be happy with this house for the rest of our lives because we can
cook the way we want to, and not the way the appliances force us to
cook. The freestanding appliances will have enough room around them that
we can easily replace them with any other size and brand we want
whenever we need to. I suspect future owners will thank us, because
*they* won't have to tear up the whole kitchen just to replace a couple
of appliances with a different style.

I get it, this board is about being trendy and we're not trendy. OK. We
never have been trendy, we've never wanted to be, and we don't need to
be.

I don't need to "find peace" within a kitchen where I hate the appliances, the counters are all a height I can't work on, and the lovely oak flooring is going to look like heck in a few months what with all the food we'll be spilling on the floor. (I'll still get to look at it, because almost all the rest of the house has exactly the same flooring.) I can remodel it, just like everyone else on this board. I had hoped to avoid that effort and expense, but there it is. There is no need for me to accept what is nonfunctional for me. And no, I don't have a closed mind, any more than the people who want to throw out the appliances I want to have. We all can make choices.

Did you not see the kitchen prior to purchasing the house? Why is the price you paid relevant to your rant?

This board is not about being trendy, its about people, connecting with professionals and consumers to discuss their wants/needs/experiences.

You seem very angry. I think finding peace would be highly advisable. Best of luck on your kitchen renovation.

Manufacturers build for the 90 - 95% of what the market wants/demands. You apparently fall in the 5%.

Tear out your kitchen, replace the appliances with the bottom end that you prefer. Just realize that you will also be devaluating your property value because 90-95% of the future potential buyers will want a mid to higher end kitchen.

Of course we saw the house before we bought it. We love the rest of the house, aside from having to replace the nonfunctional closet systems and install oak flooring in the two rooms where the previous owners didn't. It's a 4,800-square-foot 1949 Colonial Revival house with a three-car garage on a 1.8 acre landscaped lot in a nice area of town. Gorgeous thick oak floors in most rooms, wood wall paneling in some rooms, sectioned window panes, well adapted to our collection of original Art Nouveau and Arts & Crafts furniture.

The only thing we never liked is the kitchen, which in the 1990s or so, we guess, someone remodeled from a 1940s kitchen that probably would have been perfectly functional from our point of view, considering we have a 1941 kitchen in our current house and we love it. All we did to our current kitchen was replace the refrigerator and gas stove and tile the floor. We didn't want to buy our next property on the basis of its kitchen alone, either. Not to mention almost all the ones we looked at had the same problems with the built-in appliances. It's just that we thought we could live with the kitchen, and now we've decided that instead of working around it every day of our lives and wishing we had something else, we will remodel it.

Yes, the price we paid is relevant. The price you pay for a house includes not only the up-front costs, but all repairs and remodeling. Before we bought we got quotes and calculated most of that, though somewhat loosely (we didn't have unlimited contractor access before purchase). We also budgeted for more furniture and for the increased costs of maintaining a larger property, both the house and the landscaping. We didn't budget for a kitchen remodel. We got credit from the owner for much of his deferred maintenance that he hadn't fixed before sale (and he'd done a lot already, including a new roof). We budgeted for everything else, and we assumed we could just swap in kitchen appliances. Not so.

So of course I resent having to pay more. Buying and fixing up a house is not unlimited fantasy about lovely curtains. It's also about getting contractor inspections and repair quotes, and getting all the work done. In this case--even without the kitchen--it's about hiring contractors for wooden and tile or slate flooring, wiring, painting, and plumbing. And supervising them all from a 2 1/2 hour drive (each way) away. It's about getting the best products and work for the price in each case. It's about us drawing scale diagrams so we can tell wiring contractors, for example, where to put each and every ceiling fixture (we're also putting central ceiling fixtures back instead of those silly recessed lights that don't light anything) and each and every new electrical outlet. This is a lot of work, so I can't say designing a kitchen on top of that will be easy and we don't like spending that much more money. But we will do it. I just wish manufacturers would design more sensible appliances and that the owner before the previous one had designed a sensible kitchen to begin with. I hate bad design.

As for the next owners, we have no relatives in a younger generation to inherit our property, so its value is not a big deal to us. We'll be dead by the time that house is sold and we expect that to be decades from now. The new owners can remodel the kitchen again if they want to. Or maybe they'll like our kitchen.

BTW, thanks for the data on the GE Cafe Express, but it has bad user reviews so we're not going for it.

I'm curious whether you typed this on a typewriter and mailed it to Houzz to post for you (just slightly tongue-in-cheek). Manufacturers don't manufacture for the 5%, they manufacture for the 95%. If you're in the 5%, you go custom or you don't get everything you want.

I'm a full-time professional writer and use, you know, lots
of programs like Microsoft Word and Indesign. I'm perfectly capable technically
of posting messages on my own. Please, cut the ageism.

I have never been asked to write anything by Houzz. I'm
pretty sure by this point that the Houzz forums in general would prefer me to
be a happy little consumer who ooahs and aahs over everything said to be
trendy, eagerly spending more than I can afford, and giving no thought to how well
anything will hold up and work for me over the next several decades. I've never
been that person in my life. Again, cut the ageism. When it’s foolish and expensive
to be trendy when you’re middle aged, it’s also foolish and expensive when you’re
20. Buying or remodeling a house is not like buying a pair of shoes.

My current
home is a 1940s tract house in San Francisco. It looks so much like the neighbors’ that
when someone puts one up for sale, it’s like walking into your own house to discover
that while you were out, somebody removed all the furniture and painted the
walls a different color. No one ever remodels them except to put a "room down" across the back of the garage. But these are very, very well-designed and solidly
built tract houses. The architect really thought through every aspect of how
they work as living spaces. They work as well as they did when they
were built. If something isn’t broken, don’t fix it.

As for the 95%, I would be overcome with joy if I
could either get someone to build appliances for me from scratch or do it
myself. Unfortunately, as far as I know that is not an option. And, yes I will get the free-standing range, free-standing refrigerator, and the other features I want. I just have to remodel the kitchen to do it. But isn't that what everyone else here is doing? I'd imagine the kitchen in our new house would horrify you too, because its current configuration is at least *20 years old*, so you'd probably rush to remodel it even if it worked perfectly well for you. However, really good design (which that isn't) doesn't date.

Wow, sounds like you bought a great house with what you considered great bones but you did not consider the cost of remodeling kitchen, closets and floors into the buying process. Your kitchen preferences are eclectic and need to work for you, I agree. However the choices you have indicated you would want are not choices that most buyers would find acceptable, so finding advice on GW may not be helpful. It sounds as though you want appliances from the 1950's with a current appearance but 1950's price. That will be hard.

You are planning on removing all the "current creature comforts" that current buyers want and going back many years to basic closet, basic appliances with furniture type island amenities.
You mentioned Craftsman, Colonial Revival and Art Neauvau. So if you are trying to maximize what you have and what you want a KD may be helpful to help you see possibilities that the current layout / appliances prevent. She may have some period choice ides for appliances that resonate with you.
If this is your "forever house" it does not matter, choose what is right for you. If you are planning to move in the next 5-10? years then you should consider the resale value of your choices as many here would avoid a kitchen stripped and rebuilt the way you indicate.

You did say you could spend 4K on a stove so price is not the driving force, look at some retro stoves and some european brands. Also you indicted that you liked dying fabric, wanted an old style kitchen without granite, worked in silicon valley so had a knowledge of electronics, had no kids to inherit and you disliked modern conveniences. Sounds like you want the modern features on appliances but also want the appearance of free standing old school look and you want it to integrate into your home seemlesly to function with arts and crafts and Art Noueveau! Inexpensive and old school can work very well together but may require research. Old school with better technology may not be cheap!
Good luck, A kitchen remodel is a lot of work and never cheap!

I can't wait until you ask for advice on the kitchen forum.

I'm getting the popcorn.

Never understood people asking for help then being rude in the follow-up conversation. You seem very judgemental as well. Not sure why any other persons would provide helpful insight at this point, unless they simply feel sorry for you.

@kwest2: she is a little frustrated and, being capable of writing a large amount of prose in a short time span, probably got carried away with all these long posts/rants. She also seems to be a little confused as she is comparing her previous range against the current cooktop. There are some "open" burner cooktops in the $400 price range with no specialized burners (they're all in the 9kBTU range), but she stated that she doesn't like the knobs being on top. Some open-burner ranges falling in the $400 category are available as well, but installing one requires a kitchen redesign, prospect she doesn't like either. She needs to make up her mind, that's it.

BTW, one thing that baffles me is how on Earth can someone stir-fry on a puny 9kBTU burner...

@gigelus2k13: No, of course you are right; you can't stir fry on 9kBTU. You need at least 20kBTU, and even then it takes a little bit of practice.

Having said that. I grew up with my parents cooking "stir fry" on a wimpy stove during the 80's. Of course, it was actually just stewed or steamed. But my parents got so used to it, to this day this is what they like to eat. And there is nothing wrong with that. If that's what Frances enjoys, we shouldn't second guess it.

On the other hand, if Frances really is curious what stir fry tastes like, there are plenty of options in her neighborhood. I'd recommend trying out Porridge King at Skyline Plaza in Daly City, All Seasons on Diamond in SF, or even King of Thai or Spices II on Clement in SF. All of these restaurants should have no problem demonstrating what dragon breath is all about. And no, even the best home cooking range won't quite be able to match that; but a high-power burner can come much closer than your average low-end residential burners.

There are plenty of dishes, where low-and-slow results in much better food. Stir fry is not one of them -- unless you actually prefer steamed food and just happen to refer to it by the term "stir-fry".

I have to ask, Frances_Grimble , if you are the Frances Grimble from San Francisco who published the series of books on making historically accurate (and historically stylish) costuming for various decades in the 19th and early 20th centuries?

Anyway, for a bare bones, 36" cooktop with 9k btu open burners, check out the Frigidiare FFGC3603. AFAIK, this is the only 36" cooktop with 9k BTU open-burners that is still being made for sale in North America. I think Lowe's and Home Depot may carry these for under $400, as do numbers of online vendors like AJ Madison. (One caution: different models and brands of cooktops spec slight differences in the size and shape of the required countertop cutouts. Best check out the install instructions and then see if you can locate the installation instructions for the existing cooktop.)

To address various issues:

Yes, I am "the" Frances Grimble, for whatever that is worth.

Our San Francisco house was not trendy in its time, so the kitchen is
not noticeably 1940s in appearance. It is just very well designed. But
housing prices have risen so insanely (you could sell a garden shack for
a million around here) that my husband and I are cashing out and moving
to Sacramento. But not for two or three months, because we need work
done on the new house.

BTW, for several decades, I have lived in a predominantly Chinese
neighborhood, in a geographic area that I believe is now predominately
Asian, have an Asian sister-in-law who cooks for me, and I often eat in
local restaurants. So yes, I absolutely know what "real" stir fry tastes
like--and yes, I absolutely can cook it on a low-end gas stove. As,
BTW, does my sister-in-law, who hasn't been complaining about her
appliances. Really, I think she'd know whether her home cooking is
authentic.

The problem with the Frigidiare FFGC3603 (though thanks) is we need a
rangetop with buttons on the side, which is what the kitchen island in
our "new" house was built for. I can guarantee you that if we used one
with buttons on the top we'd constantly be pushing the controls by
accident when we cook.

We budgeted carefully for everything but a kitchen remodel, and I am
frustrated that whoever designed that kitchen allowed for zero
possibility that anyone might ever want different appliances at any
time. Even replacing the refrigerator would be a major pain. So yes, we
are going to remodel the entire kitchen just to replace a few
appliances. At this point, it looks like we will get one or two choices
of freestanding gas range with four 9,000 BTU burners or a low-end
freestanding electric range. The trouble with *those* is they are all
designed with at least two different sizes of burner. This is very
frustrating for us, since we often cook with four large skillets or four
small pots at once. I'm trying to talk my husband into buying two
freestanding electric ranges and putting them side by side (plus buying a
separate electric wok that has great reviews). It's a hack, but it gets
over the burner limitations. Or maybe two freestanding gas ranges, who
knows.

I don't think there is much a designer could do for us. We're looking at
appliance stores online and off, flooring stores for tile and stone,
and we'll get around to kitchen cabinets. My husband is an engineer,
mostly software, but with enough design training to design the layout of
the kitchen. He's already doing all the placement for the new wiring,
closet doors, lots of other stuff. To be honest, many people think Art
Nouveau is the same as Art Deco and they both are the same as
Mid-Century Modern--that the past is one big mush. I have seen some
truly startling kitchens, designed by professionals, labeled
"Victorian," and the like. I really don't want someone telling me that I should do X and Y and it will look Victorian, when, likely, they don't have a clue. I don't have the patience to deal with that. For a kitchen the Victorian look (whatever brand of Victorian) is basically the cabinets and hardware (knobs and faucets) anyway. You don't want authentic antique appliances. I have used them and I know. Wooden kitchen floors are impractical and most of the black-and-white linoleum and such that was actually used is fairly ugly.

Anyway, the look is my creative project and my husband's not someone else's. Frankly I can't conceive why people would want to ask each other whether a carpet looks good and so forth. If they can't figure that out for themselves they shouldn't care.

For that reason, I'm not going to the kitchen forum. I do appreciate
people's efforts to find a gas range that technically works for me, and
it's hardly their fault that these are not being manufactured. This is the best freestanding range I have found so far, for a remodeled kitchen: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Hotpoint-4-8-cu-ft-Gas-Range-in-White-RGB525DEHWW/205171170 It's virtually identical to the Hotpoint in our SF house and we like that fine.

As for resale value, who cares? We plan to live in the new house for
the rest of our lives, and our concern is that *we* like it. By the time
we're both dead, everything we do to it now that is at all trendy will be outdated and quite
possibly be wearing out. The appliances we buy now may be obsolete. Resale value is only a concern if you're
selling within a few years.

Here is an alternative, though it's similar to the GE Cafe you've already crossed off your list.

http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/ZGU366NPSS.html

Thanks, but I can buy $500 range (maximum) and put the money I'd have spent on a separate rangetop, separate oven(s), and a kitchen island into other things.

Consider this, Move into the home without making the changes. Live with some of the unnecessary or stupid elements. Gain some first hand experience with these unappreciated or undesired elements. With a little more exposure on your part, you may determine that these elements have some value or reasonable functionality. This will allow you to make more informed judgments. It may save you some money in the long run. You may decide to keep some elements and get rid of others that you haven't even considered.

Would you consider a previously-owned range? Maybe you could find what you're looking for on Craigslist?

We thought about moving in and doing some of the work later,
just so we can sell our San Francisco house faster. But neither of us
wants the discomfort of having a house remodeled or repaired while we are
living there. Especially the kitchen.

We were going to replace the seller's rangetop
anyway, on our home inspector's advice, and shopping is how we
discovered how limited and overpriced 36” gas rangetops are. The refrigerator
has a tiny freezer with no shelves that you have to pretty much kneel on the
floor to reach, so we were planning to buy a separate freezer anyway. But, a few days before
close of escrow, the seller revealed that his refrigerator has problems our home inspector did not notice. So then we decided to shop for a replacement
refrigerator. Then we discovered that there is a *very* limited selection of
freezers that will fit his built-in space, all of which are overpriced and have
the same inconvenient freezer. Distance of coils to the wall, and the kitchen
island is very close to the front of the refrigerator, so we can’t just buy a
deeper refrigerator and move it further out from the wall. That would require
relocating the whole kitchen island, which could easily have been built a
couple of feet further out into the room but was instead built with barely
enough room for one person to squeeze into the corridor between the kitchen
island and the refrigerator. Then we discovered we couldn’t just move the
kitchen island a foot, we’d probably have to rebuild the whole thing, or at
least part of it, and move the gas line for the rangetop.

This is what I mean by really bad kitchen design. And that’s what I
mean by generally, highly built-in appliances being bad design. If the person
who remodeled that kitchen had left more flexibility in the spaces, we could easily
and less expensively have just popped in some appliances.

And we’ve been happy with easily replaceable, lower-end
appliances all our lives, why should we pay a lot of money for appliances with
features we don’t want and make a lot of effort to then “appreciate” them? I
understand that some people on this board would kill for these appliances,
providing they were in working condition, which some aren’t. But my husband and
I have been very happy with lower end appliances all our lives, and it’s our
kitchen. At this stage, with us being able to easily buy a $1,000 replacement
refrigerator with a usable freezer, instead of an $8,000 one without a good
freezer plus buying a separate freezer, and a freestanding range for about $400
instead of about $4,000, we’ll save enough money to cover significant
remodeling costs. Oh, and we’ll get a kitchen we both can easily cook in at
once instead of constantly backing in and out of that tiny corridor before the
oven, refrigerator and sink because the kitchen island is blocking everything.
We’re just going to buy a freestanding kitchen table, and if we find out we put
it too close to the appliances we can move it in five minutes.

I’d consider a used range, except, people
don’t tend to discard working appliances. As for reconditioning, we’ve more
than once had the experience of paying someone $200-$300 to repair a stove or
washer that broke again two months later. I really wish appliances could still
be repaired well and economically, but that’s not the case any more. We’d just
be buying into an unknown set of problems and/or a short lifetime for the
appliance. I want to buy the thing and forget about any problems with it for the next 20 years.

To clarify, is the appliance you plan to replace a rangetop, with controls on the front: https://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Rangetop%3BCooktops/N~29+4294964366, or a drop-in cooktop, with controls on the top: https://www.ajmadison.com/b.php/Cooktop%3BCooktops/N~29+4294964374 ?

I will say that at that price point, even in an expensive market, most buyers will expect the type of kitchen and appliances you are describing. It sounds like you don't believe those work for your lifestyle, and that's fine. In your remodel, you might want to consider a more period-appropriate old gas stove, such as a Wedgewood or Chambers or O'Keefe & Merrit. Obviously, it won't work for your current setup.

I don't really disagree with you on the value (or lack thereof) in built-in refrigerators, but it's something you either have to live with or find a way to alter. I'm glad that there are other aspects of the house you love, even if the kitchen seems to be a real problem for you.

It's already been clarified several times in this discussion that it's a rangetop. Which seems to leave fewer replacement options than if it's a cooktop. It's going to be replaced with a free-standing range/stove anyway, against a wall but with enough space around it that we can always install a different size when the one we buy now wears out. And it's already been clarified several times that we are going to remodel the kitchen.

As for old appliances, what with antique collector/old-house parents and having rented a number of apartments from landlords who never replaced anything, even if it dated from before the 20s, I've used a wide variety of old appliances, plumbing, heating, etc. Lighting the oven of an old gas stove is truly scary and not something I want to live with again. The previous owner of our San Francisco house offered to include the gas range he bought in 1941, which he'd used up till the 1980s when we bought the house. He was very fond of it. We told him to take it away.

I really don't care what other owners would want. When we were looking for houses, in many cases we wondered what the architects could possibly have been thinking. Take the popular two-story living room/foyer. With no light fixtures except recessed lights in the ceiling. We always wondered how you change the light bulbs. A talk with an agent who owned one of those houses confirmed our suspicions. She said you have to get up on a very long ladder every time you want to change a light bulb and because that makes her nervous, she hires a handyman every time she wants to change a light bulb. A truly stupid design.

I wish you the best of luck in finding whatever it is you're looking for. I'm not sure at this point, to be honest.

Sorry no one could be of any help here. Good luck on all your future endeavors.

I really don't care what other owners would want.

And the current owner didn't care what you wanted, and you bought it anyway.

Hmm, such pessimism. Seems to me that we've helped Ms. Grimble figure out that (a) she can't fix her new kitchen's problems with a cooktop or rangetop that she likes (none exist) and (b) that there's really no way to get her kitchen the way she wants without a substantial remodel.

The
preference for having the kitchen all done before you move in is
understandable even if some of us would prefer to do it differently.
(I'm with homechef on that aspect, but its a personal preference).

She wants to forget about problems with appliances for the next 20 years? Good luck on that. But, as she says, a kitchen rebuild will make it much easier
and less expensive to replace anything that breaks down. Seems like there have been a lot of discussions at GW/houzz about appliances not lasting very long. An argument can
be made for buying lower end appliances for that reason. Particularly when you think they suit your cooking style.

Ms. Grimble certainly has her own very strong personal aesthetic
(hence my question
confirming that she was the author of the books on previous-century
costuming) . As she says, it's her house and her preferences. We
really cannot argue
with someone's preferences (nor, however much they try, can they really argue with our preferences,
either.) What we can discuss is how well your choices serve your
preferences.

Now,
if it were me moving from the relatively cool San Francisco climate to
the very hot climate of Sacramento (and I've lived in both places), a
gas cooktop or range would be the
last thing I'd want in my kitchen. I'd be considering the extra expense
for induction. Heck, for that house in that climate and for having two
people cooking at once, I'd be thinking about spending the money to get four induction hobs in a line.
They adapt to pan size (meaning they do equally well with the
four large skillets and the four small sauce pans mentioned above. No
need to consider having two stoves side-by-side.
Unlike gas and regular electrics, they won't throw a lot of excess heat
out
into the kitchen. Very easy to clean and keep clean. Great control over cooking even if they seem
new-fangled. I'd even be considering buying Cooktek commercial
in-counter hobs. They are usable in a home but designed for repair and
built for a long life. You can wire the controls wherever you find them
most convenient. Get knob controls if you want them rather than
touchpads. (For those pappadums and such, I'd look for something like an
Iwatani butate burner or a propane torch.)

That's me and such choices a would reflect my preferences.

To Ms. Grimble, I'm probably coming across
as trying to argue Jack Benny out of the Maxwell and into a Prius.
;>) Anyway, she likely would be appalled at the cost of the Cooktek
units.

All that really needs to be said is that she has her ways of cooking and
wants to stick with them (or as close as she can) while making it easy to replace appliances as they fail. 'Nuff said.

Do the induction hobs have to be built into an island or counter? And
are you then facing the situation with several burners designed for
different temperatures, which also doesn't work for our cooking style?
Or are there freestanding ranges with at least four induction burners
all designed for the same temperature?

As for replacement, all our stoves, washers, and dryers have lasted at least 15 years, and our dryers were all my in-laws' discards after they'd used them a few years. Our refrigerator (the one in SF) is 35 years old and still works fine. All it's needed were a couple of gasket replacements over the years. If possible, I want equally durable appliances, but I grant they may be harder to get these days.

I'm not worried about the heat. I've lived in some equally hot climates
without being any more uncomfortable in the kitchen than I was anywhere
else in the house. I'm really looking forward to getting out of the fog
belt, I've been freezing here. And the Sacramento house has central air
conditioning. I've never lived in a house with air conditioning before,
but I assume it would help.

I'm really not sure if this forum can be helpful at this point, but let's try.

1. You do not currently want to remodel the kitchen, but you do plan to in the future.

2. The kitchen has a 36" gas rangetop that needs to be replaced because a burner is malfunctioning.

3. You desire a very simple cooking surface that has evenly-powered burners at around 10k BTU each, with no "boost" or "power" burners and no simmer burners.

4. You want a reliable product that will last 15+ years.

5. A product meeting all your requirements does not exist. (I'll note that rangetops are typically higher-priced products, with the cheapest at AJ Madison running $1800.)

That seems to be the reality of the situation to me. So, you have a couple of options, in my view. I'm leaving out the "live with it" and "remodel now" options that you have rejected.

A. Accept that you can't find what you want and buy a "pro" rangetop that is inferior in your view. The closest might be this Ilve: http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/UHP965FD.html . You could also look around for a floor model or other discounted rangetop that may not meet your requirements but that can serve for now. Alternatively, you may be able to get a custom rangetop from Bluestar, as noted above, or from Capital or American Range. However, that will come at a price that might be impractical given your planned remodel.

B. Alter cabinetry and buy an inexpensive 36" gas range. Without knowing more about the kitchen, it's not clear whether this is at all feasible, but it might be worth considering given your appliance preferences. I haven't researched whether there is a 36" gas range that meets your requirements, though.

C. Buy a couple of portable induction hobs and use those and ignore the rangetop.

People here really want to be helpful, but your dilemma is unsolvable as it stands. You definitely sound very frustrated by that, which I understand, but there just isn't an answer that you like.

@Frances_Grimble: "With no light fixtures except recessed lights in the ceiling. We always wondered how you change the light bulbs."

People are using something like this (no ladder needed):
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Bayco-11-ft-Pole-Light-Bulb-Changer-Kit-with-Attachments-CE-600SDLB12/100354521

Alerievay 1,

I am frustrated partly because most of the people dispensing
advice are not reading my messages. I have already said several times that we
are remodeling *now*, meaning in the two or three months before we move in. The
kitchen work probably does have to be done after replacing the badly leaking sewer
line, after we do some rewiring, and after we do all the shopping for kitchen flooring,
cabinets, etc. But it will be done before we move in.

I also said that we plan to buy a low-end, but very suitable
for us, 30” freestanding gas or electric range. I even linked to the gas range above.
I’m not thrilled about any of the electrical choices, because they all have
differently size burners, but there are a couple of GE models with many
favorable consumer reviews on Home Depot, Lowe’s, and similar sites. I am
considering buying two of them and putting them side by side, giving us at
least 8 burners and two ovens. A very flexible cooking solution. However, we’ve
lived with very similar four-burner gas ranges all our lives so if we can fit in
only one gas range, instead of electric, that will do.

The refrigerator is proving to need replacement and its design
doesn’t work for us anyway. But if we tear out the wall cabinets hemming in the
built-in convection oven and the refrigerator, and tear out the kitchen island containing
the rangetop we don’t want, we will have a wide choice of excellent replacement
refrigerators. We have never owned a dishwasher, but my husband thinks we can
reuse the one already there and if so we can give it a try. I’m not sure I’d
bother actually buying a dishwasher. Then a freestanding kitchen table instead
of an island, giving us very flexible choices in where to put it.

Since the owner
who remodeled the kitchen took a relatively comfortably sized room and crammed
everything into one corner, using less than half the space available, I imagine
we can make all this work. Especially since the one sensible thing the
remodeler did is line a pantry/laundry room next to the kitchen with floor-to-ceiling cabinets that match the ones in the kitchen.

We’re putting a washer and laundry sink in the garage (where
I suspect from the plumbing is where they were originally). The seller’s washer
is a “smart,” high-efficiency, low-water model that does everything but get the
clothes clean, and yes we have done laundry there to test it. We just replaced
the washer in our San Francisco house with one of the two available top-loading
models reviewed as actually washing clothes. So we will take that with us when
we move, put it in the garage, move the seller’s dryer out to the garage, and throw
out the seller’s washer. Hopefully, we will be able to install some of the cabinets
we tear out of the kitchen in the washer-dryer space, making it a dedicated
pantry, which I suspect it originally was.

See? Appliance
problem solved. Just not solved with built-in or high-end appliances and a
kitchen island. Really, we’ve never had any of those, we’ve never felt any need for them,
and we’ve researched them anyway. We just don’t want them. But yes, you guys have been helpful, in terms of giving me research data.

OK, good luck with your remodel. I'm not sure why you posted asking for advice on a replacement range top, but that's what your initial question was. Sounds like you have it all figured out!

If you're going to dispense advice, please read my messages. We *thought* we could just plug on a 36" rangetop that would work for us. There turned out to be none on the market and furthermore, we found out we also had to replace the refrigerator and a host of other issues, necessitating a kitchen remodel largely for the purpose of getting workable appliances but also for other reasons, considering we had also planned to replace the oak flooring with something more practical. It's all explained above, more than once.

I doubt that a home inspector is a qualified appliance repair person who can diagnose the problem. When you say a burner doesn't work, do you mean it gets no gas? If so you might want a qualified repair person look at it. It may be a simple repair. I you mean that the burner ignitor doesn' work, then the lowtech/cost fix is to use a match or BBQ lighter. Or again a repair person can fix that problem.

If you get it fixed, you can ignor all the super duper features and adjust the flames to your liking (as mentioned above).

I read your posts and did not understand your remodel to be necessarily immediate; I thought you were still pursuing other options. I also did not get initially that it was a range top, since it wasn't clarified, and some of the options shared were drop-in cooktops.

I understand now that this was more of a rant for you, rather than a real request for advice.

Actually, we did want advice, it just turned out that no one on this list knew of a workable gas rangetop for us. In our opinion, of course, but it's our house. There doesn't seem to be one on the market. OK, now we know. And now we know we need to remodel to solve our array of kitchen problems. Thanks.

I don't know how anyone gets enough light from recessed lighting in the
ceiling of a two-story living room. The house we just bought has 8-foot
ceilings, and recessed ceiling lights. The rooms are so dim after dark
that my husband was complaining that the seller must have taken all the
light bulbs when he moved out. It turned out that actually, all
the bulbs are still there. The recessed lights just don't light any of
the rooms. Which is why we are installing (or reinstalling, I am sure
the house was not built in 1949 with recessed lighting) central ceiling
fixtures everywhere. All original Victorian and Edwardian brass fixtures (rewired up to code, of course).
We just received a gorgeous, solid brass original Art Nouveau chandelier from a French eBay
seller. So yes, we have a solution.

I think some of the ceilings will have to be reinforced to hold the fixtures. We're taking all the antique fixtures we bought for our San Francisco house, but those are lighter, except for an incredible solid copper Art Nouveau chandelier made by a local artisan that we never installed because our ceilings would not support it. Something tells me, though, that I should not ask this forum to advise on reinforcing ceilings. I'd just be inundated with pressure to "love" recessed lighting.

Anyway, best wishes, guys.

I am not arguing with you on style. While I personally like the look of recessed lights, I can absolutely see that it can clash with other design choices. So, if you have traditional fixtures that you prefer, then by all means go ahead and install them.

But from a purely functional point of view, I think you are doing recessed lights great injustice. Properly installed, they'll light a room perfectly. They should be very bright and should provide very even lighting.

Whoever installed them should have made decisions on appropriate number of lumens and on appropriate color temperature. And of course, color-rendition-index is probably a factor. If done right, there is absolutely no excuse for the room looking too dark or for it looking in any way uncomfortable.

And as for replacing light bulbs, that's just really quaint :-) Modern LED powered light fixtures not only save energy (typically by about 85%), but they also have the advantage of outliving all of us. You really don't need to worry about ever replacing them --- unless you picked a really low-end model, but you'll probably find out if that was the case after about the first half year.

You get a lot more flexibility with the shape of these lights too. Not everything has to look like a light bulb. Flat panels are a great alternative, and they can look surprisingly similar to sky lights, if that's the look you like. Or you can mimic old school decorative bulbs, if you want to go to the other extreme. And you have a wide range of options as to what other parameters you want ot pick.

Of course, if you don't like any of this, you could also install solar tubes. No electricity at all, and lots of brightness. But it only works during the day, and some people are put off by the high color temperature that ironically can feel unnatural.

I have to say I have rarely seen posts on this forum where the original poster in the guise of seeking advice was so self-centered and unwilling to listen to the advice given. It's been entertaining though.

I will admit to this being the most entertaining thread I have read in a long time, albeit least productive. I didn't realize I was so "trendy." I'll have to let my wife know.

I ran out of pop corn and I bought the big bucket.

@sjhockeyfan325 I agree about the "not listening part". But I find it even harder to figure out what exactly it is that the OP actually wants. For a professional writer, her writing style is surprisingly sparse on actual details of what it is exactly that she is looking for (other than, "exactly what I have in my old house; don't you know").

Several times, I thought I understood what her question was, and what type of product she was looking for. Only to discover in the next posting that I apparently completely misunderstood her -- again.

I am genuinely trying to answer questions -- or where that's impossible, to at least leave useful information that others can look at later when they read the archived conversation. But I agree that as entertaining as this particular thread is, it has the least favorable signal-to-noise ratio in a long while, as nobody appears to understand each other.

I am still waiting for OP to tell us that she's been trolling all along; and man, will I feel stupid to have fallen for it. LOL

M, if you have "old" lighting, IMO, have to use incandescent lighting to look right. We have slip shade and Lightolier After Sunset lighting and many old lamps. You cannot get the same color of light with LED bulbs. :-). I do have a few in closets though.

I am trying to figure out where to fit some Edison bulbs in.

To the OP, when your washer goes out consider a Speed Queen top loader. They are old fashion in build. We have 11 of them we use in our business and they go all day five days a week and we have never had a repair on them. The oldest is about 10 years old. I have one at home and it cleans unbelievably well. It is gentle on the gentle or hand wash cycle. I wash antique fabrics and even laces in it. Yes I dye fabrics too. I can put it on hot and heavy duty and felt wool. The life span is estimated at 25 years. It fills all the way too.

Most people consider 2700K a nice warm color (i.e. a low color temperature). It has noticeable hues of yellow and is quite appropriate for many low-light interior situations. And it is also very readily available in many different shapes of LED lighting products.

LED lights with even lower color temperatures are a little more difficult to find, but it is fortunately possible to buy LED lights with adjustable color temperature. And those regularly go down to 2000K. That's the color of early sunrise. In other words, it is very yellow indeed.

Also, pleasing color temperature depends a lot on brightness levels. You might find that you like the slightly higher color temperature of 2700K LEDs better, once you increase overall brightness in the room. The Kruithof curve explains why this is the case.

On the other hand, if you want something that looks very close to low-powered tungsten incandescent lights, you could look at "vintage style" LED bulbs. I don't have any experience with this product, but the specs do in fact look very similar to what you'd get with a traditional incandescent light.

This is really hijacking the thread, but IMO the "filament" LED bulbs are going to win the LED bulb race. Output efficiency on par with the best CREE's, inexpensive, low electronic content needed to power them from 110VAC, uniform light pattern, nice CR index. The big box stores don't carry them yet, but I'm sure that will change. I'm buying mine from amazon.com...

I have gotten the warm bulbs but they have a greenish cast to me. I have one now that is 2700K. Evidently the 2700K is an averaged number and just one thing to look at when evaluating light bulbs. The LEDs are missing the red component of the light which is likely why they look green to me. The article below explains this. We have used the tea lights in red glasses at Christmas to kill the green as they are opposite on the color wheel and I guess this explains it. I will continue to consider newer technology as it comes along but it is not there yet for me.

Color testing of light bulbs

Yes, some of the really cheap (or older) LED lights have really poor color rendition indices. For proper illumination, they should replicate "black body radiation". This would require a continuous range of spectrum with no peaks or drops. LEDs by themselves typically can't do that; but a properly designed phosphor coating can achieve this goal pretty well. And some RGB (red-green-blue) LEDs can come surprisingly close -- for RGB LEDs the spectrum won't be continuous, but the human eye can't always tell, if the frequencies for the RGB LEDs were chosen appropriately.

Most modern LEDs will specify both color temperature and color rendition index. If you have something like CRI 85+, you shouldn't see any obvious tints, other than the natural tint expected for the given color temperature (i.e. yellowish for low temperatures and bluish for high temperatures).

The original poster cannot be satisfied. There are solutions that fit her requirements. She doesn't want to pay the money that is required or modify her requirements to reflect her budget. Our attempts to educate and advise her will fail. She is closed to anything other than her perceived solution, which is unavailable, unappealing or unacceptable to most of us.

M, can you give an example of a light bulb that is for sale that meets that description? The last one I bought is 2700K and CRI of 80 and it is pretty green still.

@wekick: Try the Cree TrueWhite series. I think they have a CRI 93 rating. I have generally had good luck with them (although there was one dimmer switch that didn't work with this particular bulb). Around where I live, Home Depot often sells them heavily discounted. And the nice thing about Home Depot is, if you don't like the bulb, they have an excellent return policy.

Also, as I described earlier, color perception is a strange phenomenon. Does increasing the overall brightness make things feel more natural to you? Your room could just be too dim for 2700K. Unfortunately, it takes a bit more effort to find bulbs with lower color temperatures, so often it is easier to simply increase overall brightness rather than decrease temperature.

@homechef59: I am increasingly convinced that the OP has an XY problem (http://xyproblem.info). Until she figures out how to ask the right questions, we won't really be able to help her.

M, Interesting. You might be right.