Thanks rick. I did spray them before work yesterday because it was our first sunny day and was going to be really hot. Maybe shouldn't have done that. Should I leave the top off in the shade?

If your temperatures are warm and the greater percentages have germinated. I would leave humidity dome off.

You may find that they dry back quicker once out of dome and your temps. are high.

Rick

Ill open it up. I hope it's not damp off :( Thank you so much for your help Rick

Let us know how they do.

I know my DRs are really happy the sun is finally out here.

My fingers crossed for you.

Marie

Thank you all, I'm so sick to my stomach thinking I may have killed 50 or so plants. Had 80 pop up and now I just want to cry.

Nicholas can you post a photo of the entire tray? Perhaps this could help us visually.

Tracy

Its dark out. Will have to get better ones tomorrow (if they make it)

Second half

What made you suspect you baked them, Nicholas? I've had soil surface temperatures going up to as high as 38C in my adenium germination trays and if anything, it sped up germination and growth.

Were they fine the night before? Are they outside in full sun? Spraying young seedlings on a hot, sunny day can fry them--water beads act like lenses, intensifying sunlight to the point where seedlings might not be able to handle them. Bottom-watering is safer.

I would immediately isolate unaffected seedlings, in case it is a pathogen.

Pagan

I thought they were baked because the morning before they were perfect. Then we had our first clear hot day but the dome was still on. They were in shade but it was still like 90+ in the shade.

Not sure how to isolate so young. Do I just scoop them out and transplant?

One had come up with 3 leaves instead of two. Was excited to see it grow but sadly its one of the brown ones.

I'll try to be coherent but I'm half-asleep already.

First examine the seedlings that browned. Dig one up and check if the damage looked like it started from the roots or from above the soil line. I'd even slice it in half to see what the stem looked like inside. Is there a pattern to the damage? I mean, all seedlings on the right or on the left (may be in the path of an exhaust vent or something like that). If these were my seedlings, I will also dig up one of the healthy ones to check if it is affected in any way.

If it appears to be a pathogen, you'll have to dig out the survivors, wash them and replant in fresh potting soil.

I agree with Rick about removing the dome.

Pagan

Thank you Pagan. I'll have to do seedling surgery before work tomorrow. The dome is removed, hopefully it doesn't spread to the others before can figure it out.

The brown ones have now turned almost white. It's like the pigment was sucked out out of them. I think it was some sort of fungus or virus. I transplanted the 4 that might be strong enough to make it. There are more green ones but they have little to no roots and their leaves haven't even opened.

II'm not even sure which kind I saved because I removed them as quickly as I could without checking type. Not sure what i'll do differently next time But i have a while to think about it before I can order more anyways.

Thank you to all those who helped, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Sorry to here that they have not recovered. Hope your are able to save some Nicholas. Always a bit of a disappointment when these things happen.

What type of soil mix have you used? This was the first factor I always contribute to these issues. "Damping off", they would rot right at the base and topple over.

You have a good sense and are very concise in what you do. I am sure you will figure this out.

Rick

Soil mix is 50% cactus mix and 50% perlite. possibly the part that was wrong was sprinkling cactus mix very thin over top to cover the seeds then having watered that one day from the top rather than bottom.

By the way the 17 that came up in the separate pot seem to be doing ok for the moment, fingers are crossed that it won't turn into a complete loss.

We'll just write this off as a learning experience and hopefully it also serves to help others in the future :)

Glad to here, Nicholas. I have always used straight Coconut Coir and Perlite, just for starting seeds. The use of a grit of some sort also is a beneficial admendment, as it helps to keep a consistent moisture level as well as keep the soil surface from drying out. Friends that own a nursery here use a grit on their seed sown greenhouses and I know that Mark Dimmitt uses also.

learning experience is what it is for sure.

Rick

Oh, Nicholas, I am so sorry for your seedlings.

Hi Nicholas, so sorry to hear of your lost seedlings. I use the same thing as Rick to grow my seedlings. Hopefully digging a few up will help provide some answers. We have all lost seedlings so we absolutely know how it feels.

Tracy

Sorry to hear about your seedlings as well. I really hope that the ones that still look grow strong and in the future become stunning plants for you.

Just a quick note I used gritty mix for my seedlings (first time, it was kind of an experiment for me) and so far so good.

Thank you all for the kind words. I don't think any non-plant addict could understand. I'll have to find some coir, no one here seems to sell it. Does that fast of draining mix still work to water from bottom?

If you use coir and perlite you can water it from the bottom, it wicks extremely well. If you use gritty mix, you cannot bottom water since there is no wicking. Forgot to mention that I do top-water my seedlings regularly. I use a tattoo wash bottle so that the water is distributed evenly and I know exactly how much water I have put into the tray.

I water from the top as well but very gently. I don't just dump the water on. I drizzle it on until it drains from the bottom and discard the excess.

Nicholas, I would not give up on those seedlings yet. I would keep the humidity dome off, keep them moist, keep them in east/morning sun and it is very likely that as long as they are not damping off, they may survive. Hang in there. You may be surprised...

Layouts, Haven't written them off quite yet. Trying to keep moist but on the dryer side. They are quarantined in the carport out of the sun. Hopefully some may come around.

Tracy, that bottle is exactly what I've been looking for. Was trying to find something like that for the succulents so I don't have to water the entire pot and can just have it close enough to to the roots to wick a little.

Bunny, thank you for the info. Think I really need to change my mix. Would like the gritty mix but it seems so expensive to get all the components.

For me it wasn't so much expensive to get the components just time consuming and difficult to find. I'm on the hunt for a new bark supplier but nothing was overly expensive. Big bag of perlite was $15, big bag of lava rock was $16 and a massive bag of bark (that I can't use anymore but that point's moot) was only $8. I've read many people leave the bark out entirely or use a bit of cactus and succulent soil instead but that just doesn't sit well with me. Good luck!

Oh, I like that mix. I have a huge bag of perlite already. The only other gritty mix I was able to find was completely different and seemed like it would be much more expensive. I may give this one a shot.

If I understand correctly, the bark provides nutrients. Is the bark enough for all their nutrients or do you need to add other stuff as they grow? Other than fertilizer I mean.

Nicholas, very sorry for your loss...I am a newbie at this ( at Adeniums since May 15 only) but please grow them in Cocoa peat + organic manure. I think that's best being porous. Were there holes in the seed tray, to drain off excess water?

Nicholas,

None of the ingredients in gritty mix will provide the nutrients that your plants need. The mix is intended to give you maximum control of water and fertilizer--the ingredients in this substrate are mixed together in different proportions to each other only to hold them. There are lots of posts and discussions in this forum that you can review so you'll be familiar with how to make the mix and what substitutes you can use if you can't get all the recommended materials.

I strongly advise against moving seedlings into gritty mix--they will need way more water than this substrate can hold for the amount of time it needs to hold it until the next watering. Adenium seedlings, unlike mature plants, are not succulents. They are more like tender tropicals. In gritty mix and even in 5:1:1, you'll have to water your seedlings more than once a day in this mix, especially if it is hot (over 30C) and dry (below 50 percent).

I have grown seedlings in the 5-1-1 version of this substrate but I only moved them after 4 months and I intended to grow them very hard in order to keep them very compact.

I'll post pictures later.

Pagan

I agree with Pagan 100%. I use gritty for much older plants. The seedlings I raised in gritty (newbs, not yearlings) did not have the vigorous growth and strong roots as the ones I raised in coir/course perlite. They need to be watered much too frequently. I also tried mixing a batch of coir/perlite with the grit and the result was dead plants. Every single one in this mix died. So if you pick a direction, go fully in that direction, not halfway like I did.

Tracy

That's wonderful information. I'm not sure what I'd do without all of you. Now I just need to find coconut coir. Or coconut chunks since I may change to aero garden

I got a big block of Coco coir from Amazon for about $15.

i find starting them out in a tupperware or other plastic container with cactus mix inside a zip bag, watered, works well, and then put them on top of the water heater. once they sprout, i remove from water heater and put under grow lights, i open the bag, and then after a couple days, remove the zip bag. water and let them harden off, getting a 2nd or 3rd set of leaves, watering about every 2nd or 3rd day. then i xfer to tiny dixie cups with holes in bottom using a perlite/cactus mix, and sink the whole dixie cup into gritty mix and ease into the sun. pix to folo… works for me.

and … the entire flock ...

dave

It's weird, everyone seems to have kept their seedlings a lot more watered than I did, I just gave them moist starting medium then misted the top once and they all died.

Maybe it was the fact that they were outside and it was so wet outside already that there were too many fungal spores in the air. I'm going to look for a good fungicide to use with seeds and seedlings.

The loss of the majority of my seedlings is still a complete mystery to me, damping off is the only explanation that fits but the soil wasn't really all that wet. The humidity is very high here a long with all the rain (they weren't rained on though) must have just been the right conditions. Going to try growing indoors with perlite/coir mix and then move outside after about a month.

Dave, love the pictures. Just the look of gritty is really appealing to me. What mix do you use? I'm going to try to find more info on gritty mix because so far my searches have just turned up people asking about gritty and being told to search for it.

As I'm sure you know by now I like to know every "why" for everything so I want to find why specific components of gritty are used. For example someone in a post mentioned that X ingredient was used with their mix to add calcium I believe.

Yikes, sorry to hear that Tracy. The pathogen is a great theory (and probably the most likely). Out of curiosity do you also treat coco coir before, or is that usually pretty safe?

Nicholas, I have about a 50-75% survival rate with my seedlings. Lost one or two to excess moisture. We have the same weather. All mine are outdoors.

Cynthia, that's a good point as well. Which I feel further confirms Tracy's theory of a pathogen. I'm keeping a really close eye on my last little batch of seedlings.

I do not treat the coir at all before using it. I really love the stuff. The finer coir works great for seeds. The more coarse coir works great for older seedlings and adult plants. The brand I use is called Sunleaves PieceCoir Block.

Tracy

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi

Here is a link to the thread Al made about the gritty and 5-1-1 mixes. Grab a drink and have a read. It's fascinating.

Nicholas, I apologize for my terrible advice about using gritty mix for seedlings. I had no idea that it wasn't a good idea. This is my first time using gritty as well as my first time sowing multiple seeds of any kind. Suppose if I want mine to do well and /or at least survive I should transfer them to something else.

Thanks to everyone who chipped in to give appropriate advice. The learning never stops.

Nicholas, I hope you have some more seed to get your log continuing.

Bunnygurl, you are absolutely right. It is a matter of "the learning never stops". When I was younger my instructor always told me that "if you ever stop learning, then you stop all together. We can always learn something from anyone."

I have most of Al's articles copied so that I can pick them up to refresh when ever I need.

Rick

Al's stuff is absolutely great. I'd also advise looking at his ones on fertilizing plants in containers.

It truly amazes me each time I log in and see the wealth of knowledge you all offer.

Bunny, I don't consider your advice to be terrible at all. As rick said, it's a continuing learning experience for everyone.

Rick, I'm planning to order more just not sure when. I doubt I can resist long.

I hear ya, Nick--it just never stops! And resistance never works, either, just so you're warned. For instance, I got 3 plants from Rinoa two weeks ago (glowering pointedly at Rick who posted the link to her catalogue), after swearing I have enough adeniums to play with.

Pagan

For what it's worth Bunnygurl, I know plenty of people that start succulent seeds successfully in gritty mix. Adenium seedlings are a bit different due to their high watering requirements. I don't think you have to move them. Just be prepared to water those with greater frequency.

One more thing that I love about the coir/perlite mix is that you know exactly when to water. The color of the media lightens to just the right color and the weight of the tray also is a big tell.

Al's water retention post and subsequent gritty mix posts are terrific information that will be useful and beneficial no matter what kind of media you are planning to use.

Tracy

Nicholas, I have some seed coming from Australia at some point. You are welcome to the extra, if you would like?

Pagan, I love to temp people. I am so glad that you jumped on board. You have always been a great deal of inspiration and "why not", we are all just a little bit addicted to these trees.

If wondering why I am saying "trees" instead of "plants". Just trying to teach myself, because this is what they call them in Thailand and most places. Laura has always called them trees and so has Jericson.

Just one of those odd things, I do.

Wish I could send some of my "trees" to everyone.

Rick

Rick, that's very kind of you. If you have extras I'd gladly give them a home as long as they wouldn't mind my constant attention and paranoia. That and having their every moment documented :)

I gave in to temptation the other day and ordered more seeds. Just had some empty pots calling for company.... They were cheap, don't know how good they are. I can share as well.

How can I go wrong 100 seeds for $8. If I get even 25% germination, I'm ahead of the game. And they are yellow.

Cynthia, that is a good deal! You could just drive them over haha :)

Too bad everyone isn't withing like an hour of each other, how great would that be?

We will have to get together.