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HELP! Landscapers Won't Even Help

11 years ago

We've been trying to redesign our backyard for years now. I've called 5 different landscape companies - three never returned my call and two came out and said it was pretty hopeless. We have one large oak tree on our property and 7 neighboring trees that provide almost full-time shade. We planted Zoysia empire grass 3 years ago on the left and right side of the yard, but not much is left.

One of the biggest problems is our 6 yr old lab who kicks up and slides through the grass, dirt, and gravel when playing ball/chasing squirrels. Second biggest problem is drainage. The backyard FLOODS immediately and it rains a lot here in West Central Florida. I've tried regrading, but you can barely stick a shovel (or stick for that matter) in anywhere because of all the feeder roots from the tree. And all the rain has washed away a lot of soil. Third biggest problem is shade. I've tried perennial peanut and only a couple survived but never spread. Same thing with Asian Jasmine.

We want to put a gravel patio area with fire pit along the back fence, but I can't figure out how to connect the pavers around the tree to the shed and to the new gravel area, if that makes sense. I also don't know what do use as a path that the dog won't kick up (she kicked gravel up all over the grass).


Yard in it's glory day (May 2012)

Yard as a hot mess (Now)

Comments (22)

  • 11 years ago

    I'm sorry I can't offer solutions but I can contribute experience. A gravel patio will drive you nuts. You can't move chairs on gravel. As the gravel shifts a table will wiggle and the chairs will tilt. Weeds will come. Use landscape fabric and weeds will still come and you'll have a terrible job when weeds seed into the fabric itself.

    Even without a playful dog, gravel travels into grass and adjacent spaces. We had a gravel driveway for 20 years. I dont know whether snow or floods are worse, but I know it was worth every cent we spent to get rid of the gravel and get pavers.

    Am I correct in assuming the yard belongs primarily to the dog, and restricting access to a certain area is not an option? Also, is that where the dog does its business?

  • 11 years ago

    Many people will chime in here to agree that gravel is evil. I had it once - never, never again. Ever. I had two kids and a lab, and gravel everywhere it shouldn't be.


    Why beat your head against a brick wall? If the dog is allowed to roam freely in the area, DON'T use gravel. Or mulch. Or anything else loose.

  • 11 years ago

    Is that astro turf so it can be shampooed periodically? I know, it is the super-canine groundcover....

  • 11 years ago

    Is this the fire pit area?

  • PRO
    11 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    I agree about the gravel - LOVE Yardvaark's design and think that astro turf is a very viable option if you can prep the ground properly (those tree roots might cause some problems).

    We do have plenty of articles on how to DIY design on our website and we're in the middle of doing a free online garden design workshop - let me know if you're interested in that and I can give you the link, but in all honesty I think Yardvaark's idea is going to be tough to beat! ;o)

  • 11 years ago

    Oh, please don't call it "astro turf"!! Artificial/synthetic lawns have progressed light years away from astro turf to the point where you would need to get down on your hands and knees to examine to determine it was not the real stuff. An ideal solution to areas where lawns are difficult to grow, where drought or other weather conditions preclude the frequent irrigation real lawns require or where it's just inconvenient to grow a lawn (rooftop gardens, confined urban backyards, etc.)

  • 11 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    gardengal - I've heard of that fake grass recommended for dog areas - BUT I wonder how good an idea that is. - urine could be hosed away probably, but what about fecal matter? Even with regular pick-up, solids will remain, and then there is the issue of diarrhea.... I wonder what the fecal/bacteria counts are on that stuff after it has been down for a while in a dog area....?!

    We are in a totally different zone so I have no idea re what would grow in the OP's area. Our very shady backyard is planned and planted with dogs in mind. There are many paths through the yard - the routes are largely determined by where the dogs naturally travel (e.g. perimeter patrol etc......) The surface of the paths is a mix of fine pine bark mulch and concrete sand compressed into our clay soil with a water-filled roller. In damp areas I had DH (+ nephew!) add a drainage layer under it - see below... ) Whenever conditions are wet, the dogs get their feet wiped off on the back porch before they are allowed in the house, which takes care of the tracking-dirt-into-the-house problem. The center of the backyard is a grassy lawn - the grass is weak because of the shade but survives well enough to provide a green foil to the rest of the plantings. The path network gives dogs lots of opportunities to burn off energy (they love to chase each other - or be chased (all you need to do is pretend you are going to chase them....) by people for them to go whipping around the yard! Our yard is bigger than yours by the looks of it but perhaps you could adapt the concept we use...

    (Only the black poodle is ours - the rest are visiting buddies....)

  • 11 years ago

    Woody, there are types of artificial turf that have been formulated specifically for dog use....and heavy dog use at that, like in off-leash dog parks. Most of these types of artificial turf are treated/implanted with antimicrobial agents that assist with clean up and prevent the development or dispersal of any pathogenic elements. Completely safe and very easy to clean with just a hose after any solid waste pick up. Probably much cleaner, safer and better for the environment and your pets than allowing them to poop and pee on a regular lawn!!

  • 11 years ago

    Yard can be fixed but a guy that makes $ just running mower blower and weedeater is not going to help you. Why THINK for the $ when he can make the same being on auto pilot mowing/blowing? Need landscape architect.

    dogs will ruin grass and more noticeable when small patio, accept it and/or fence in a doggie area (but he'll still jump so...)

    poor drainage usually involves several properties. You may regrade but if neighbor doesn't you will have accomplished nothing. Ck with neighbors and see if they have same issue and how to pool resources to improve.

    big tree: want shade? Keep it. Don't want shade? Remove. Rooted mass will decompose and disappear in time

  • 11 years ago
    last modified: 11 years ago

    Yes, emmarene, that is where we planned on putting the gravel fire pit area.


    Yardvaark, I love your idea. What would we use for the path to the shed? Mulch? The dog runs and does her business everywhere. I put up temporary fencing around the lawn at one point but she just jumped over. We had two tree guys come out but they gave us outrageous estimates because of how difficult it would be to cut limbs from the neighbors trees.

    Here's a view of the canopy.

    Here's a view of the yard from the south side

  • 11 years ago

    I was kidding about astroturf. But I just learned alot. Someone is going to have to spend money to make the yard habitable for people and canine.

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    Drainage is the first problem to solve since it requires re-shaping the earth and no paving or planting can occur until it's done. From the picture all that can be seen is a flat lawn, so there's no obvious suggestions to offer. I think you will need to have someone who knows about drainage come and take a look. I would not call a "landscaper" but someone who comprehends drainage like a landscape architect or drainage engineer. I don't think it's a given that you will need to (or can) involve other neighbors in the solution, but a person figuring out how to solve the problem will need to know what is happening with grade in the neighbors' yards in order to solve what needs to happen in yours.

    My earlier illustration is indicating how you might lay out a path and firepit area. It's not specifying, or suggesting what anything is made of, which becomes the task at hand. Seems like the firepit area could be resolved easily with some gravel material that PACKS DOWN HARD. I would vote against using gravel that is loose. (The gravel you show in your first photo looks like loose gravel so I could imagine it causing trouble from the dog scattering it and trouble just from walking on it.) Actually, I could see a modified install of artificial turf as a possible path material, since it's flexible. I say modified, because the the standard install is almost like a brick patio. It requires a base of tamped granular material. The tree roots are going to be a problem so you may need to do something in an unconventional way, which of course, limits surety about how well it will perform. That's just how it is when "experimenting."

    One truth is that NO plant will grow in conditions that are not suitable for it. Therefore, you will NEVER have luck with Zoysia, perennial peanut or anything else that requires substantial amounts of sun. You must change the light conditions by altering the tree, or you must change plant material to something that will tolerate low light. It will never be any different than that. Actually, only one grass comes to mind that I know will tolerate the conditions and that is the wild native basket grass which grows all over Florida. FYI, it's invasive, but sometimes that's what one must tolerate when conditions demand. (See a picture of it here.) If you're anywhere near Brandon I can tell you where you can see it first hand, used in a public setting. It was not installed. It just took over because that's the only thing that would grow well. And it looks very nice mowed, too. It dies down to nothing in winter. Now or very soon would be the time of year to collect its seeds.

    jz thanked Yardvaark
  • 11 years ago

    White clover will grow in shade and wet conditions. I have it in my lawn mixed with creeping red fescue. It makes a lush beautiful lawn (imho) when grass fails. You can mow it just like lawn and it will stand up to some wear. It is good for the soil, too, and needs no care. It might work for you. I am in zone 7 and it has solved my ugly front yard problems. Next, I will try it in the back where the dogs have created an even worse situation than yours!

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    Make sure the pavers adjacent to the house are sloped away from the house. Then see where is the lowest elevation of the property. If you can install a catch basin in the middle of the "flood" zone, run a drainline to the lowest point of the property or if most of the lot seems flat, install a french drain which is a drainline with perforated holes backfilled with gravel. Just cut through the roots to get down below the surface - hire one of the landscapers who didn't have a clue. Its just manual labor once you have a plan. After you have taken care of the drainage, one idea is to install pavers allowing for about 1" gaps and seed the joints with Dichondra for your patio surface and pathways.

    For the rest of the plantable area, synthetic turf is a great grass alternative, yet pricey if installed by a pro. If you install it, it may end up looking like floppy carpeting especially if dogs are running over it. Vinca major or Vinca minor (Periwinkle) is a ground cover that will spread fast and prefer shade. Although invasive, it can be controlled. The Vinca minor is more low growing with smaller leaves. It does not spread like Bamboo but rather from its runners which put down roots on top of the surface, so all you have to do is control the runners to where you want it contained.

    jz thanked JSL Landscape Design
  • 11 years ago

    We had extremely heavy rain a few months ago and I measured about 7" of standing water at the rear part of the yard and 2-3" inside the screened porch. I regraded as much as possible after it dried up but when it rained again, I realized that the majority of the water might be runoff for the porch roof. I was thinking adding gutters might help but I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make.

    This is what it looked like after major flooding (Early August 2015)

    This is what it looked like after I did some regrading (Late August 2015)


  • 11 years ago

    Yardvaark, we do have basket grass that has started randomly growing in spots (you can see it around the tree)... could this be an indication of areas where sod might possibly survive? We're in South Tampa if that helps any


    JSL Exteriors Landscape Design/Build, the pavers are sloped away from the house, but the yard doesn't seem to continue the slope so water pools where the two meet. How much does heavy rain affect soil erosion in yards? I feel like I'm finding much more larger tree roots popping up everywhere and even some grass roots. Would adding topsoil help at all?

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    Adding topsoil may help shallow rooted plants like some ground covers and grass, but will probably get displaced until the new planting holds the soil in place. I think you should get the drainage handled before you change the grade over the roots. And trees don't like too much soil over their natural grade at the base of the trunk.

    When there is no slope on a property, the only way to get rid of the water is to use a sump pump. The sump pump is placed in a vault that fills up with water during a rain. When the water level gets to a certain point, a float valve switches on the pump and it pumps out the water through a pipe that you have placed all the way to where you want the water to be discharged - like the street. So drainage should then be directed towards the sump pump. If you install gutters, make sure the downspouts are connected to drainlines that go to the street or the sump pump. Sump pumps are usually placed in locations where there is no where the water can go - typically a low spot that cannot be regraded. You will need a GFI protected electrical outlet near the pump within the reach of the cord and not just an extension cord.

  • 11 years ago

    would building a rain garden help at all?

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    Rain garden - only if it was deep enough to handle a heavy rain and if located in the lowest part of the property so it could handle most of the water. You would have to dig it down like a shallow retention basin, but then again, the plants you put in there need to be shade loving.

  • PRO
    11 years ago

    If the drainage can be fixed without mechanical means, I prefer it because mechanical devices have a way of failing right when you need them most. Based on your flood pictures, it looks like there might be an overall downward tilt of the lot toward the back right corner of the property. Is that the case? If it is, it stands to reason that the yard was graded so as to drain in this direction. Have you looked over the fence to see if a neighbor has constructed anything or regraded and inadvertently blocked off the flow of water leaving your yard? If a neighbor creates such a situation it's up to him/her to correct it and up to you to get after them about it.

  • 11 years ago

    Geez. Yeah, fix the drainage. For the patio around tree roots, AFTER the drainage is fixed, decomposed granite with a high quality fertilizer, and get rid of the stepping stones and the stuff around the tree. Spread the DG out to there.