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joseph_corlett

Think Comprehensively

10 years ago
last modified: 10 years ago

When you're remodeling, it's always good to think of the big picture. I know it's cliche, but sometimes folks are penny wise and pound foolish. Sure, a new slide-in range is probably less expensive than replacing the built-in oven and cooktop, but when you get my bill for the alterations, you may have saved nothing.

This Corian top had to have the front rail removed, the sides and rear trimmed and sanded, the cabinet removed without breaking the plastic laminate base, the cabinet front turned into fillers, the base trimmed and reinforced, the electrical and gas relocated to the slide-in manufacturer's specified spot, and a 1/2" plywood subfloor installed to be flush with the tile.

Seven hours, not including drive time, plus $26.00 worth of material. And I'm pretty good at this.

The distance from the tile splash to the front edge on the right is 25 1/2" and 25 1/4" on the left. So when your eagle-eyed brother-in-law comes over, has a few beers, and notices the reveal is off a quarter inch, tell him it's not my fault. I didn't install the cabinets and/or backsplash out of plane.

Comments (17)

  • 10 years ago

    Another suggestion:

    When planning and executing the dishwasher installation:

    • Make the space wide enough for an American dishwasher, and then add side trim strips matching the cabinet wood finish or paint color for use with European dishwashers.
    • Make the counter depth deep enough for American dishwashers plus a bit for hose room in the back, else changing from European to American may require embedding part of of the dishwasher into the wall.
    • Consider using a stand pipe instead of a garbage disposal connection for the dishwasher drain. It will be quieter (correctly angled) and won't require an on-counter air gap. Flow rate may be higher also.

    kas

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    If the dishwasher is to be paneled, the 600 mm dishwasher (such as Miele's) can still use a 24 inch door panel, which can hide the filler trim when closed so that the filler trim does not have to be color matched. I just used white HDPE plastic.

  • 10 years ago

    And make sure an electrical box is installed in the cabinet adjacent to the dishwasher. Even if you're installing a direct-wire model today, its replacement some years down the road may need a plug.

  • PRO
    10 years ago

    On retrofit jobs like this, I have a policy of requiring the appliance to be on site so I have proof positive that the appliance fits in the opening I've altered. I foolishly waived this policy for this customer and it came back to bite me in the butt in the form of a callback this morning. The manufacturer's instructions say to have no wider than a 2 1/4" rear rail and I did, however, that left the appliance sticking out further than the customer liked.


    This guy already beat me up a bit on my bill, so this extra hour and a quarter stings nicely. One of us has to be unhappy and I've decided it's going to be me. At least he is going to know he hired the right guy. The guy who, had he followed his own policy, would not be setting a hour and a quarter on fire right now.

    As I predicted, the reveals are off, but not by much.


    Best Buy did not place their level in an "X" fashion over the appliance, as shown here. The stove rocks just a bit now too. Looks like I'm not the only one getting a callback.


  • 10 years ago

    eshmh: Your idea is good for simplicity of construction and aesthetics, but the door needs some gap, and more noise will leak around it than if the trim is flush to the unit's two sides. (One can, of course, do both.) This may only matter to those who want to reach the specified "quiet" sound levels of the more expensive suppressed dishwashers.

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    The full (almost) height side fillers are just behind the 24 inch door (but stick out from the sides of the DW). Even if 600 mm door is used and fillers are flush to the surface, the gaps between the door and the fillers are still there. IMO, 24 inch door + recessed fillers and 600 mm door + flushed fillers are pretty much same thing in term of leaking noise.

    In the non-paneled case, then there is no choice, the filler has to be flush to the surface. The fillers can match the cabinet or the dishwasher (e.g. factory supplied fillers).

  • 10 years ago

    I have a different filler strips in mind. These are screwed to the cabinets on each side and are of such face width that the dishwasher fits smoothly between them. The dishwasher in turn screws to the fill strips leaving effectively zero side gap.

    This was my approach for a Miele Optima, the only example I have, but one that was next to quietest in Miele's line at the time I purchased it,. I believe it was compliant with their directions. Upper gaps and lower gaps, of course, required their own treatment per Miele directions. The Optima turned out to be very quiet.

    Perhaps Miele is non typical and your description is more general, in which case I stand corrected.

    kas

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    “I have a different filler strips in mind. These are screwed to the cabinets on each side and are of such face width that the dishwasher fits smoothly between them. The dishwasher in turn screws to the fill strips leaving effectively zero side gap.”

    I have the same thing. I also installed a filler on the top.

  • 10 years ago

    eshmh: Perhaps we are addressing different noise sources. My appreciation was that noise from the main body of the dishwasher (that gets past or through the sound insulation wrap) needed to be blocked from getting past the front edge.

    Admittedly, noise from the interior that gets through the door seal will not be blocked, although a wider door might help reduce it.

    Apologies to Joseph Corlett, LLC for potential thread jacking. Your topic is also of interest, although I have not installed a modern range and thus I am not fully clear on the rear rail issue.

    kas

  • 10 years ago
    last modified: 10 years ago

    Oh, I guess you meant a filler covering the whole side. I didn't do that. The noise from DW might be possibly a notch higher, but I would not worry about that as the draining noise at the sink is so much louder. :-(

    When my builder cut the opening for my CC range top, they didn't bother leaving the narrow rear rail (although the installation manual shows it). It is just two pieces of counter tops at the required distance apart. The range top can be pushed all the way in. I guess the rear rail does not provide support strength anyway.

  • PRO
    10 years ago

    "Apologies to Joseph Corlett, LLC for potential thread jacking."


    No need. A little thread drift is always a good thing.

  • PRO
    10 years ago

    Joseph, did you give the owner an estimate, so they could make their own decision to "think comprehensively"?

  • 10 years ago

    Thanks much for posting
    this. Most of us everyday people do not quite understand all the details
    that are entailed in a retrofit.

    You just helped to reaffirm a decision we made a few days ago where we
    needed to replace a built-in wall oven/microwave combo unit. We'd thought about
    perhaps altering the cabinet so we could just use a single wall oven and a
    microwave on a shelf. The appliances themselves would have been quite a bit
    cheaper. But, we know the cabinetry work would have been more extensive.
    Instead, we went with the more expensive appliance (a replacement wall oven
    microwave unit) that will just require a few minor alterations to the existing
    cabinet.

  • 10 years ago

    As to the oven sticking out, how was the clearance for the door? Normally the doors are supposed to be 'proud' of the cabinets due to heat restrictions. In this case, the oven 'carcass' might need to be flush with the surface of the doors since they are rather close aboard. The owner might not like it, but he might not like the doors getting singed either.

  • PRO
    10 years ago

    "Joseph, did you give the owner an estimate, so they could make their own decision to "think comprehensively"?"


    No.


    I don't bid, I bill. He knew my minimum charge and my rates before I started and he approved the additional work required.


    I've worked very hard to earn a customer satisfaction rating of 4.65 out of a possible 5 with over 250 online reviews over a decade. If price is more important to you than value, we aren't right for each other.


    On the other hand, if 10-20% of your satisfied customers aren't complaining about your rates, you're charging too little.

  • 10 years ago

    "On the other hand, if 10-20% of your satisfied customers aren't complaining about your rates, you're charging too little."

    Now you tell me. :)