How often do you guys install 40"+. DH??? I will run the idea bout picture window by wife.

They make them. Those aren't too tall so you shouldn't have any issue with them.

this post reads kinda weird pepco. In your original post, you stated a clear concern for more glass, but then praised winkler when he suggested that glass loss is not a big deal? So in review, the Okna 500 has more glass which you wanted, superior energy ratings (which I assume you wanted given the air leakage comment), and is actually a bit less money, but you chose the Vytex because it feels heavier? That might be a first. Check out the Polaris Ultraweld if you are looking for window that gets good feedback and is built like a Panzer tank. In addition, based on the 500 pricing, I'm guessing that you could upgrade to the okna 800 for the same price as the vytex which would really be a home run. The Vytex is a solid window, it just seems weird that one product checked all of the boxes that you laid out, but then you decide to go a different direction.

The Potomac isnt bulky at all, the Fortis is a more narrow frame. The structural number ( DP rating) will be higher on the potomac than the okna. The structural rating on the Fortis is the same as the okna 500.

I also think the vytex is a nicer looking window and as another poster mentioned, it has more features for the money than the okna. the fortis is very similar to the soft lite imperial window but more narrow.

pepco1, you can go 40" wide. From your pic, i would recommend ventilation.

Both the vytex potomac and fortis have sash reinforcement so the width isnt an issue on either.

fridge, the polaris is a very bulky frame and in my opinion, its an ugly window. both the vytex and okna are much nicer looking.

Thanks for the comment winkster, but I was asking pepco his/her personal thoughts. To answer a few of your points however:

-The okna 500 has a measurement from edge of frame to glass of 2 3/4". What is the Vytex? I believe it to be in the range of 3-3 1/4", which would be an inch (give or take) of lost glass on width.

-More "features" for the money is a ridiculous statement. The only differences in features are purely subjective. The tilt latch/lock combo is neat, but I have seen more service issues with it than anything, and I think that window salesmen are more excited about it than consumers.

-In DP, the 500 okna gets a dp50 without reinforcement. That is excellence in engineering. I don't know of another window that can boast that. In every other way the 500 gets superior ratings. .25 U factor with double pane, .02 air infiltration,etc.

-On appearance, I would say that more people would find the okna more attractive, but again, that is subjective.

Even as a Vytex salesperson which you clearly are, you have to admit that those points are inarguable, and for a significant price savings, its baffling that anyone would choose the vytex.

If I were ranking these original 4 choices, I'd have the vytex, either model, squarely in fourth. The only reason that I might bump it up to third here would be because the vanguard is too pricey in comparison. I personally like the okna, however even if someone likes the bulkier look, I'm baffled as to why that wouldn't take that deal on the Imperial LS. Softlite has a longer, better track record than vytex, and that window is also better in every way. I don't see any way that the vytex wins in a comparison based solely on product. Sorry.

I am not a vytex salesperson. You are an okna salesperson or at the very least a dealer. Its quite obvious by your biased posts.

the vytex fortis gets a dp50 and .05 air leakage. My soft lite imperial gets a .02 and there is no real world difference.

the vytex fortis has reinforcement, a sash interlock, and a nicer looking sash profile ( its also narrow). I happen to like okna, i just think both soft lite and vytex offer more for the money in terms of features, strength, and looks. I will go out on a limb and throw in the vanguard based on the OP mentioning that model as well.

im not saying okna isnt a good window, it is. I just think you over hype it and make it out to be much more than it actually is.

are you and i really going to go back and forth until one of us decides to quit responding to the other or will you just get some other guys to join in with your own personal bias?

I've been doing this for almost 30 years, i know all the players my friend.

this isnt fair to the rest of the forum participants. Im being nice and refraining from mentioning some negativity. Lets call a truce and end this.

Things always seem to take a turn when you weigh in winkster. Something does smell a bit fishy.

What company did you say that you are from again?

I also noticed that you didn't answer any of the points above.

Fair enough though, I'd agree that this conversation would be best served to get back on track.

@pepco, no concerns whatsoever in getting a 40" wide dh in any of those lines.

The comment by winkster made sense to me if glass area was a really big problem with replacements, then that would be all the talk and concern when getting new windows. I never even heard of it til the Soft lite dealer mentioned it and said he would go with banbridge over the LS. He thought it would be an issue with the 20 inch windows and was the first to bring up putting DHs there. The price of soft lites are nice, but I couldnt get comfortable with the dealer and install. And to be honest the soft lites had a dated look to me.

the Sunrise ruled out based on price alone. Then came the 1st Vytex bid, really liked what they had to say about the potomacs but didnt like there price.

Then the OKNA dealer came, I really liked the 500s and was going to go with them, but the vytex kept coming back to my mind for some reason. I then noticed a 2nd dealer that sold Vytex and they came in at the same price as the 500s. Later OKNA dealer said 75 off first 10 was on the other brand they sold, but if that was what I was told they would honor it.

My mind kept drifting back to the vytex, so I went and took a 2nd look at them and the 500s. After that I started feeling better about the vytex dealer and installers.

I dont know guys, my gut feeling just said vytex. that simple. I realize that the 500s have better specs. but my gut kept telling me vytex. May be wrong or may be right.

Probably would be just as happy with cheapest windows from lowes or HD. They would be 95% better than what i have now. May be overkill here.

Still trying to decide if we should change the 20 inch windows into large DHs.

Worried it would change the over all architectural look to the front of house we have be so use to seeing for the last 25 years.

If we go with DHs then glass area becomes non issue.

Thanks for posting back pepco. Not sure that I'd agree with the sentiment on cheap box store windows, but you are right about the fact that any of these choices would serve you well.

With cost turning out equal (or close), I don't think that anyone can argue with you choosing the window and installer that you felt more confortable with. Congrats on the purchase :)

Pepco1

you made a fine choice in the vytex. The 500 really doesnt have better specs than the vytex. The ufactors are basically the same whereas the structural rating on the vytex is better.

all that being said, both are good windows.

best of luck to you

Written like a true romance novel. Both are fine windows. The Potomac looks like a Deucunick extrusion to be honest. It is slightly larger on the master frame size as compared to the 500. The numbers on it thermally are about the same as the Okna with the Okna being slightly better (0.26 vs. 0.25). The VT numbers are slightly better on the Okna 500 as well (0.51 vs. 0.54). The more apt comparison between the brand is probably the Okna 800 compared to the Potomac and the Okna 500 to the Fortis. In that comparison, the Okna pretty much wins both head to head comparisons unless you like the integrated tilt latch mechanism. Some do, some don't. Again, the poster made a fine choice either way and I would love to see some before and after pictures of the home as well as some in progress pictures.

Winkster...you never said what area that you work out of? I see that HomeSealed asked that before and you seem to have a counter point to every point, except that one...?

Actually I didn't see many counterpoints at all WoW, lots of bluster, little substance. The last comment in fact took the little bit of credibility that this guy had, doused it in gasoline and set it on fire. He says that AI of .01 or .02 to .05 is no big deal, but how about a similar delta of .05 to .1? I'm certain that he'd find that unacceptable, lol. The comments are so shameless and weak that it's really a bad look for vytex IMO.

Congrats again pepco. Sorry for the sideshow.

Homeseal, you shamelessly promote okna to the enth degree. Really ???? At least i give another view point thats objective and not 110% biased.

i am stating factual data.

The vytex fortis has a Ufactor of .26 and they have another glass package that gets a VT to 54. They use both cardinal IG and climaguard by guardian IG, the same exact glass as okna series. the same exact spacer system or extremely similar. I personally think the vytex is made stronger. Thats just my opinion.

The vytex fortis has a Dp rating of 50, same exact as the okna 500. The soft lite imperial is very similar in design and features to the fortis.

im done with this post. The bias to okna is extreme.

My profile is an open book winkster. You can click on it or even visit my website to see who I am and what products I sell. I also regularly recommend products that I directly compete against, such as the Softlite Elements/LS, and Sunrise Restorations because I think that they are very good, and I take pride in giving objective advice. Not sure how I could be more transparent or fair than that?... Perhaps you would do the same?

@pepco, one more thing that I wanted to ask that may be relevant: The picture that you posted of the vytex unit has an SGHC of .18. Is that the exact glass package that you chose? Depending on where you are located, you may want to reconsider. That will be pretty dark and possibly detrimental to overall efficiency if you live in a cooler climate. I'm certain that Vytex must offer a higher (more moderate) solar gain package.

My personnel opinion is the difference between the DP, air and u- values, and by numbers will really amount to nothing. As many pro's have stated an air number of 0.05 is very good and within range of an upper end window, to compare it to a window of 1.0 is not a good or fair anology. Kind like saying the 500 is bad cause it leaks twice as much air as the 800.

Winkster...where is the bias. The first person in this thread to list a singular window in their reply was....wait for it...you.

I suggest you re-read the thread and feel free to point out any bias that HomeSealed or I was promoting.

For that matter...find me a single nonfactual statement that was made?

Toddinmn...where is the cut off number then? If you are going to make the statement that 0.01 to 0.05 is no big deal, to HomeSealed's analogy, why isn't 0.05 to 0.10 fine as well.

I agree Todd that .05 is good, and also that the vytex is a good window. I've made that clear. To say that .05 and .02 is "the same performance" however is inaccurate, and i think that analogy is fair. .02 is 250% better. That's irrefutable. How that translates to real world performance is debatable. The question of course becomes where that cutoff is, and who is the authority on that. I can say that I have never had an air infiltration compliant on a window that was installed properly with a .01-.02 AI. I cannot say the same for .05 and higher. That's just my experience, and for the record, that does not include the vytex product since I've never installed or sold it.

Didn't say the same, said the difference would really amount to nothing, meaning in the real world the difference would be undetectable. In a lab under the test conditions with the sample size window , then yes I would agree. Just using a cut off number that has been used and seemingly accepted by Pro's before. I personally think 0.05 is a good cut off with a dp55. There will always be exception to this since there are some windows out there in the 0.1 range that are pretty good and would take before some that are even below 0.05. I am saying that sometimes the difference between 0.05 and 0.02 sometimes is no big deal just like the difference between 0.02 and 0.01 being twice as much and 0.05 and 0.02 being 2 1/2 times as much.

Which window are you referring to Homesealed?

WOW, what is your cutoff number?

HomeSealed, I am N.C. Hot and humid (90s) in summer and in the winter most 30s,40s and a few 20s and teens spells.

Package Im getting is called Energy Saver Plus R-4 Double-paned

U-value 0.26 SHGC- 0.20 (grids- 0.18) I am getting grids in top only.

VT- .047 CR- 61 Air Infiltration 0.05

I just noticed a NEW glass package on there website, not in brochure called

Energy Saver R-5 double paned U-factor 0.22 SHGC- 0.28 VT- 0.50 Air Leakage < 0.3

I will be calling to see price difference in this newly discovered package.

We went over contract today and he said his installer will be coming out to get final measurements, so hopefully I can upgrade to package if price isnt too much??

Pepco, you cited the CR on the first package but not the second. The "upgrade" sounds like a surface 4 low e coating. It's a concept that is okay in some applications, but if you have ANY concerns about condensation whatsoever, I'd highly advise against it. That CR rating drops substantially, likely into the upper 40's

Pepco, the surface 4 coating is a brainstorm from cardinal IG and i am as confident as the day is long that it was developed for the big 3 that cardinal IG so proudly caters to. Surface 4 does have potential condensation issues which can mitigate some of the nice benefits double pane glass offers us.

that is the untold secret of the infamous surface 4 coating young man.

It says Turn your double pane windows into triple pane performers. 2 layers of silver coating. R-5 glass coating, high performance, low-E glass

Does not list a CR #

Energy Saver R-5 Glass, offered by Vytex Windows, is the next generation in insulated glass units. It’s
engineered to achieve the lowest possible U-values and the thermal efficiency of a triple pane window in a dual
pane unit. Plus, it’s durable and scratch-resistant and can be cleaned with common household glass cleaners.

so you guys think I should stick with original package due to my climate and a higher CR# ????

The tidbit about scratch resistant means that it is a Surface 4 Low-e. While it is a neat technology, I am not a fan in climates where you get some temperature lows. Now, that might be a bit self serving as I don't want to get customer complaints about condensation where they didn't previously have any, but that possibility still exists. I would opt for the other package that you had specified.

Toddinmn...to address your previous question...my cut off number is 0.05 and below. With as many good windows that are out there, it just doesn't make sense to go above that number. While I would concede that the delta between 0.02 and 0.05 is slight and not likely to be noticed or felt by the homeowner, I must also admit (via my keen mathematical skills) that 0.02 is more than 2X as good. Better is just better in this case and while that may not amount to much on 1 window, if we are talking about 30 windows...it does amount to something.

Just some sample math again, but lets do and example. If I have a project with 30 windows (not at all uncommon), and we are talking about 0.02 vs. 0.05, the math adds up.

Window Size average = 36" by 60" (15 sq/ft)

Window A = 9 cubic feet of leakage at 25mph (wind is howling at home right now)

Window B = 22.5 cubic feet of leakage at 25 mph

Window B is going to require you to heat/cool an additional 13.5 cubic feet of air (Per Minute) more. Granted this is at 25mph so lets take this number and cut it down by 1/3rd. Still means we are heating about 4 more CFM ever minute of every day. That adds up pretty quickly.

If the real world worked like a lab I'd say your right. As we know the actual air numbers can vary quite a bit from size to size within the same model and even different on different days. This is not a number like a u-value. If it was don't you think someone with a window like a Soft-Lite Classic (so of 0.11)would be freaking out with some 1000% more of air blasting through their house?

Have you seen Okna's or Soft-Lite's test results on multiple sizes tested?

Pepco1, I would stick with original package. I would be more worried about scratching the glass or getting something on it than condensation in your srea

Funny that you should mention that product Todd, I have actually replaced those and SL Pros due to air leakage complaints. While there are many variables that will make it difficult to achieve the precise rating acheived in a lab, simple logic would dictate that a product that gets a better rating in a lab will also get better performance in the real world, assuming all else (installation factors, etc) is equal.

On the condensation, while its less likely to be a problem for pepco than someone here in WI or in MN, I'd reiterate that pepco is the one best suited to answer that. If you have had no issue whatsoever with condensation, then you probably won't. If you do see some however in the dead of winter, it should definitely be a consideration. The scratching/durability is a non issue. The u factor is sensational, so the condensation is really the only thing in my mind that should be heavily considered in deciding whether or not it is a fit for you.

Finally!! Installation of my Vytex Potomacs is tomorrow.

Should I expect installers to use spray foams around frame of windows as an extra sealant or just in any gaps that call for it???

Foam is best. Gaps that are it large enough for foam can be caulked

I remember when installer measured windows he said, measurement would be so tight/close that foam wouldnt be needed. But foam would be used if any gaps are seen. Does that sound about right?????

Yes. Low expansion, low pressure, window and door specific foam. Ideally closed cell. Most are closed cell but the Dow Window and Door stuff is Open Cell if I am not mistaken.

+1. The tight gaps things is an interesting comment, as if the gaps were extremely tight on all four sides that could pose a challenge for installing a window square in an opening that is at least somewhat racked... I'm probably over analyzing that though. Just make sure that they seal or insulate around the frames and you should be in good shape.

Any kind of spray foam is fine.

Any kind of foam or are you replying to WindowKen's comment? The foam needs to be low pressure, low expansion, and ideally closed cell window and door specific foam. I wouldn't use Dow on my home nor any other open cell foam.

DOW is closed cell and should be just fine. I think the product is maybe better but is not as user friendly.

Agree with above. Low expansion is a necessity, and closed cell is highly preferred as it seals against air and moisture

They are not using any foam, said gap is too small, but he said he is going to run a bead of caulk around where small gap is.

Will just caulking be ok??

I would prefer to see the under sill area be insulated myself, but the smaller gaps on the side can be sealed with backer rod and caulking.

Todd...if it is closed cell, that is new. I commonly referred to it as closed cell until a supremely picayune guy sent me the MSDS on that product. Just looked it up and the link is now dead so I am not sure if they changed it.

They refer to "open cell content" as less than 75% here in the technical data sheet: http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDOWCOM/dh_095a/0901b8038095aeb5.pdf?filepath=styrofoam/pdfs/noreg/179-07324.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc

I will say this, if it is closed cell foam, you aren't pushing it back into this gap when it is cured.

Those windows fit extremely tight. I would make sure to check the reveals to ensure that they are installed square. Open the top sash 1/4 inch and same for the lower. The resultant gap should be fairly consistent from one side to the other.

Regarding the foam, caulking of those gaps is about all you can do. As Wow stated though, the undersill areas has plenty of room to be insulated and needs to be.

Finished window

Your install seems to have been done very well. Nice pics.

Looks good.

Eric, Dow and Osi use the same wording, "closed cell structure" without saying closed cell. This will require further investigation . The Dow does seem more dense/ rigid than the Osi.

I meant the Dow is more dense and flexible Osi less dense more brittle.

Air leakage is overrated. Anything 0.06 or under is outstanding. When the wind blows 25mph per minute a 0.02 AI rating will leak 1.5 soda cans of air. In reality you will not even feel or notice this. So if the wind blows 5-10 mph like it normally does everyday you're going to leak what? A half a can of air? You will not feel or notice air leakage in Windows with numbers this close. It doesn't matter if it's a 0.01 or 0.06 lets be real here. It's like saying triple pane makes a difference in sound reduction. A 0.28 STC and 0.29 STC make no noticeable difference to human ears. If you want to notice a difference you will need laminated glass with a 0.38STC or higher... The difference between a 0.26 u-factor in a Fortis window compared to a 0.25 okna500 will mean basically nothing. What are you going to save over the course of an entire year? Maybe 5 dollars?

A half a can of air leakage over a course of one minute is basically not even equivalent to one breath you exhale

So if there is not difference between a 0.01 and a 0.06 (I agree that it is slight), should there be any value assigned to a U-Factor difference of similar magnitude. Lets assume that a 0.05 cfm difference is about 17% difference from the to not exceed data of 0.30. That being said, should we also assume that a negative performance delta of 17% is "no noticeable difference". How about on U-Factor? By your argument, a window with a U-Factor of 0.30 (17% worse) is just as good as a window at 0.26. So anything with a U-Factor of 0.30 is now as good as anything at a 0.30?

Sounds like window Ken sells a window with a .06.

This whole argument is fairly silly. A threshold has to be established at some point, and of course something just over whatever that threshold may be will be "very close". Personally I like to put those windows that have a .01-.02 in a top tier of performance excellence. I'd put everything up to and including .09 in the next tier which I'd say is good. I'd prefer to avoid anything over .1. There are exceptions to those rules of course, but again, the line must be drawn somewhere. The bottom line however that all can agree on is that lower is better. If one would assert that .06 is tangibly better than .11, then certainly .01 would be equally better than .06.

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