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midcenturyfangirl

Advice Needed on A/C HeatPump Replacement

10 years ago

Ready to replace a 20 year old 3 ton A/C and 30 year old air
handler. Would appreciate some comments from the knowledgeable folks on this
site. Thank you!

Location: Philadelphia Suburbs/1950s midcentury bi-level ranch home

Replacement: Supplemental A/C unit that cools 4 small
bedrooms (approx.1800 sq ft) and a hallway. There is another A/C that cools the
entire house (bi-level 1950’s ranch with lots of upgraded windows) but not
enough air flow to the bedrooms thus the supplemental unit. Current 20 year old
Bryant unit has a leak and has been recharged with Freon every year to keep it
going.

Several contractors claim the duct work needs to be replaced
and have included it in their bids. Existing ductwork is crushed, held together
by duct tape and does not provide good flow to all rooms. I trust their
judgement and would like to go ahead and replace duct work.

Install Issues: Air Handler and bedroom ductwork is
in an unconditioned attic. Attic has poor insulation (will upgrade someday) and
is unlit and narrow – probably not easy to work in. Installer will have to
enlarge existing ceiling return to fit new air handler into the attic.

Air handler is presently installed right on top of the
bedroom ceiling. Condenser unit is right outside the bedroom (bedroom is on 2nd
floor). Noise issues aplenty with current 20 year old unit. Sounds like a jet
airplane taking off each time it runs. Quiet is a key goal for my new install.

Use: The current A/C system is generally used only at
night. We are not folks who run the machines all day long even though we
probably should because the humidity in that part of the house can get to 80%
in summer. I could see possibly using a heat pump for heat more often in winter
as the air flow to the bedrooms in winter is also weak due to the construction
of the house.

Questions:

1. I have had about 8 bids. I threw away the ones that did
not even bother to go up into the attic to look at the job properly. The two
contractors below came up with a 2.5 size but heat pumps only come in whole
sizes. Am I oversizing the unit if I go with the 3 ton heat pump?

2. These are the two sticker shock bids under consideration.
They include new flex duct work, line sets, drain pans. None of the contractors
separated out the cost of the equipment from the ductwork labor.

Are the prices unreasonable?

Is one equipment type better than the other?

A. Carrier 3 ton Performance Heat
Pump

Outdoor unit: 25HCB636

Air
Handler: FV4CNF003

$11,420
(includes rebates)

B. Lennox XP16 3 ton Heat Pump

Air Handler CBM32MV

$12,675
(includes rebates)

I asked about pricing of an A/C
unit only with the same specs and the result is only about $800 less.

3. Is it worth it to get multi stage unit for my limited use
of the equipment or should I stick to basic single stage?

4. Given the noise issue, is it best to install on an insulated
platform or on the rafters?

Comments (5)

  • PRO
    10 years ago

    Heat pumps do come in half ton sizes. You must look at the net BTU your old one was putting out and the net of the new one at the same design temperatures. Also you don't want to end up oversized when the insulation is added.

    midcenturyfangirl thanked HVAC Consulting
  • 10 years ago

    "The two contractors below came up with a 2.5 size but heat pumps only come in whole sizes. Am I over sizing the unit if I go with the 3 ton heat pump?"

    The heat pumps you were quoted are 2-stage models. All 2-stage heat pumps come in whole ton sizes. You would have to get a single stage heat pump in order to get the 2.5 ton size.

    I am in central NJ so my climate is very similar to yours. Did you review the load calculations? Is the 1800 sq. feet all on the second floor below attic space? Given attic poor insulation (R19 or less?), the 2.5 ton may be slightly under sized. In my opinion I don't think a 2-stage 3 ton heat pump is over sized. We would have to look at the data sheet, but most likely the lower stage will be less than 2.5 tons.

    It is difficult to comment on the price because of the required duct work. It sounds there is a lot of labor involved in the new duct work and attic installation. Contractors don't like to break out line item cost. Getting one price is very common. You have gotten 8 bids, so you compare prices. You did the right thing by rejecting people who don't even go into the attic.

    The answer you other questions, I think 2-stage equipment is worth the extra money. It is going to do a better job of lowering the humidity in the summer. It should also be quieter when running on the low stage while you are sleeping.

    I think suspending the air handler from the rafters is the best way to minimize noise. I don't have experience with attic installed equipment, but it seems logical you would cut down the vibration from the ceiling.

    You want R8 insulated ducts in the attic. The main duct should be metal and all joints should have mastic. The flexible ducts should have no kinks. If it looks bad to your eye then it is probably bad. You are doing the right thing by investing in improved duct work.

    I like Carrier over Lennox. You also want a 2-stage thermostat. Find out the model number and make sure it is in the quote.


    midcenturyfangirl thanked mike_home
  • 10 years ago

    For your location, I would not have a HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost. Neither the Lennox or Carrier offer this feature.


    New Heat Pump System


    Here is my general spec sheet for new system.

    both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.


    15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF

    best matching VS air handler

    full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size

    R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)

    scroll compressor preferred

    electronic demand defrost preferred

    thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature

    staged backup heat strips depending on system size

    new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset

    10 yr warranty on parts and compressor


    you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.


    any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.


    My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd and Carrier/Bryant.


    Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.


    IMO


    midcenturyfangirl thanked tigerdunes
  • 10 years ago

    Thank you all so much. This is from what I can tell a complicated job and so many things to think about. Electronic demand defrost is one new important issue I had not thought deeply about and only 1 contractor actually discussed with me. The variation in contractor bids is amazing. Most appear to be 'drive by' estimates few (very few) actually do a thorough job of evaluating and educating. I appreciate you sharing your expertise and hopefully I can pay it back on another topic at another time:)

  • 10 years ago

    These prices are not inexpensive. I would not have the Lennox period. I recommend you get a price on Trane XR16 and identical model from sister company American Standard.

    IMO

    midcenturyfangirl thanked tigerdunes