Pine vs. Douglas Fir Windows and Doors

10 years ago

We are installing replacement as well as new construction windows and doors at our 1850s house in Washington, DC. Per historic regulations, they must be all wood; no aluminum cladding or vinyl, etc.. We are trying to choose between installing pine or douglas fir. Either way, they will be primed and painted on the exterior and interior. Given the local climate (cold snowy winters, steamy hot summers, heavy rain storms), is there a strong preference for one over the other? Douglas fir is supposedly more sturdy and durable, however it is still a softwood like pine. The fir is $10-12k more expensive and we just don't know if it's worth it, especially if we are sure to repaint the exteriors every 5 years or so.

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akamainegrower

10 years ago

First of all, pine and fir are both coniferous evergreens, but they belong to completely different genera. Fir is not "one of the pine species".

Douglas fir is a stronger wood than pine and has important uses as framing lumber because of that quality. The real issue with wood used to make windows and other millworker has much more to do with tightness of grain and how it has been grown than with the species used. There are 200+ year old windows made from pine still going strong with normal routine maintenance. Most wood harvested today is plantation or at least managed forest grown and cannot match the quality of the wood from an earlier era. It's grown too fast to achieve the necessary grain tightness. Is Douglas fir superior in this regard to pine? Possible, but I seriously doubt it. In any case, it is not 10k to 12k superior. This huge price differential is most likely a marketing ploy, not a real difference in quality or longevity.

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Comments (6)

kats737
10 years ago
Yeah, a fir is of the pine species, just a specific one.

I recently got a window made from Marvin Ultimate, used their default pine wood, and I finished it with my own wood stain. Couldn't be happier with how it integrates into my home.

Since you are painting, IMO I would also go with whatever the most reasonable of the all wood options are. Do they even offer poplar?
delamusique
Original Author
10 years ago
Hi kats737, thanks for responding. Really good to hear of your positive experience with Marvin Ultimate, which is one of the brands we are considering. I don't think they do poplar. Has your window survived significant weather since installation? How is it doing? Did you consider different wood species?
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sambah006
10 years ago
Money no object I would consider Douglas Fir over pine any day of the week. Much better window material.

It seems Marvin is really price gouging on the up charge between the different woods. Doug fir is not some exotic high demand low supply wood.

Also, if you do decide to go with Doug Fir it would be a crime to paint the insides of the windows, and not have them stained or a clear.
delamusique
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks for this comment, sambah006. Yeah, the price gouging is intense - many companies are cashing in on that reputed superiority of Douglas Fir over pine. With regard to painting, our home has some very large picture windows (dating to a 1960s remodel of part of the house, not the 1850s construction, of course!). The kitchen and decor is very modern with lots of white, so we are aiming to make the windows look "invisible" from the inside by painting them white in order to create a real indoor-outdoor feeling. We want quality windows and doors for sure, but we don't want to throw away money in buying Douglas Fir if priming and painting basically levels the playing field between Doug Fir and pine...
sambah006
10 years ago
$12K cost difference is a lot to take on. I understand.

Money no object.. even primed and painted pine is not that great of a material, especially for windows unless maybe you lived somewhere that rarely had any rain or humidity like New Mexico. Pine just doesn't hold up.

What kind of warranty does Marvin offer on their Ultimates?

Where I live on the other side of the country, there is a local window company that for the $$$ will make the same windows as the Ultimate.

I looked into having a new wood window made for my kitchen. Frame and everything. For them to make it, and me installing the glass because their up charge for putty was a lot, and painting was around $2.2K. I think they were going to use wooden stops. This was a couple years ago. I have no idea what they were going to charge for installation.

I did some digging around. Made a call all the way to MA and talked with a window maker. He gave me a # of a smaller scale window maker somewhere in CA. I spoke with him. The lowdown he told me was, to make money he needs to make at least three windows of the same size. So if the windows you are making are all the same size you may be able to negotiate a little bit of savings.

Anyhow, He forwarded me to a guy somewhat closer in OR. He was going to charge me about $1200 for what I wanted, and this was using all the old pre 1950s windows making equipment using VG Fir. Apparently the guy was a collector of old window making machinery. Really interesting to talk to.

So, my installer disappeared. And since this was going to be a little more involved than I wanted to deal with because the window was going to be slightly moved, a mess with the upper kitchen cabinets, etc..., I decided to pass.

What I'm trying to say is there may be some equal quality smaller scale window manufacturers closer to you, but much less expensive than Marvin. I'm sure Marvin has a lot of overhead, and likes to have a lot of profit margin for their name.

I also have those same 1960s picture windows. They actually don't bother me. But they put in an awful 1960s aluminum slider window in the kitchen that has awkward dimensions and is ugly. Still have it.