Your favorite Old Garden Roses?

7 years ago

2013 was the first year I began growing these beautiful roses, with the exception of ZD, which I had previously grown. Part of my hesitation in growing them was thinking I liked the modern roses better, and didn't want to waste my time with something I thought I wouldn't be that fond of, but I proved myself wrong as these became more established! Now, I wouldn't want to be without them. They add so much to the spring landscape, and their intermittent blooms throughout the season, not only with their beauty, but the fragrances as well. I definitely intend to add more of these types of roses to my collection.

Which Old Garden Roses are your favorites?

MME ISAAC PEREIRE - Bourbon.

SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON - Bourbon

ZEPHIRINE DROUHIN - BOURBON

REINE DES VIOLETTES - HYBRID PERPETUAL

KATHLEEN HARROP - BOURBON

VARIEGATA DI BOLOGNA - BOURBON

ISABELLA SPRUNT - TEA

MME ERNEST CALVAT - BOURBON

Featured Answer

AquaEyes 7a NJ

7 years ago

last modified: 7 years ago

I wanted to learn about old roses, so I planted a bunch, from many different types -- whatever I could fit in my tiny yard. So I have a few each of Bourbons, Chinas, Damasks, Gallicas, Hybrid Chinas, Hybrid Perpetuals, Damask Perpetuals, Mossy Perpetuals, and two species ancestors -- R. moschata and R. fedtschenkoana. I also have a few each of different types of modern roses, such as Floribundas, Hybrid Teas, Hybrid Musks, Polyanthas, and whatever you want to call David Austin's roses. This may sound like I have hundreds, but I don't. In some cases, it's just two or three or four of each class.

Then, since I ran out of room, I asked if I could plant some date-appropriate roses at an old church cemetery in my town. Great! So starting with the once-blooming oldies, I got to plant Albas, Centifolias, Mosses, Hybrid Chinas, Hybrid Bourbons, Gallicas, Damasks, and some old-but-not-OGR tree-climbers.

So, smithdale1z8pnw, what's an OGR? Well, roses were divided into three basic categories -- Species, Old Garden Roses, and Modern Roses. The dividing line between OGRs and MRs is often repeated as being 1867 -- but that's only part-true. It's not when the rose came out, but when its class came out. So while the Tea rose 'Rosette Delizy' came out in 1922, it's still an OGR because the Tea class was around before 1867. Polyanthas as a class were recognized after 1867, so they're technically not OGRs but rather MRs. So even though the Polyantha rose 'Perle d'Or' (introduced 1883) is older than the aforementioned RD, PdO is considered a Modern Rose because Polanthas were introduced as a class after 1867.

Why the year 1867? That's the year 'La France' was introduced, and was later granted a new class -- Hybrid Tea. While a few older hybrids between Teas and Hybrid Perpetuals were around from before, this was the first one considered different enough that it didn't easily fit into either Tea or Hybrid Perpetual -- so they came up with a new class. And that was deemed the dividing line between the "old" and the "modern".

But there are Modern Rose classes which are embraced by fans of the OGRs. Why? Because even though they came out after Hybrid Teas, they retain an "old charm". Hybrid Musks (Modern Rose class) were bred to emulate and expand upon Noisettes (Old Garden Rose class). Polyanthas (Modern Rose class) were sort of like hardier Chinas (Old Garden Rose class). And then David Austin came along, and the "old flower form" became popular again -- even if the plants behave more like Modern Roses.

Now, here's the rub -- where does "antique rose" fit in? I think of the word "antique" as referring to something at least 100 years old -- and I'm not alone in using the 100-year mark for the definition. Since 1867 was 150 years ago, that means a lot of Modern Roses are also antique roses. And since a few breeders continued to dabble with the oldies, we have some Old Garden Roses that are too young to be antiques. So, in my book, 'La France' is an antique rose (i.e. over 100 years old), but also a Modern Rose (i.e. a Hybrid Tea), and not an Old Garden Rose. Meanwhile, 'Rosette Delizy' is old, but not quite yet an antique rose -- give it another five years for that title. Being a Tea, it is still an Old Garden Rose and not a Modern Rose.

And, to those of you who are curious to dip your toes into the OGR pool, I'd suggest learning a little about the general habits of each class before falling in love with a picture of a beautiful bloom and buying the plant. For example, if you don't get much Winter chill -- or if Summers come in hot and fast -- Gallicas and Albas will likely be disappointing, but you'd do well with Noisettes and Chinas and Teas. The classes among OGRs are a bit more ancestry-based than are how Modern Rose classes are put together, so that makes it a bit easier to figure out if something would do well in your climate.

Oh, and don't be afraid of once-blooming roses -- think of them as azaleas or lilacs, mixing into the garden as "flowering shrubs", and you'll understand how to use them. While their annual flushes may last only a few weeks, they'll produce at least as many blooms in that period as similarly-sized repeat-blooming roses would all season. Also, generally OGRs will perform better as bigger plants than what you may be used to if you've grown mostly Hybrid Teas and Floribundas. They can be trained and pruned, but not generally as harshly as is recommended for "show roses".

There are so many beautiful roses out there, it'd be a shame to miss out on so many because you want to grow "only Modern Roses." Or, for that matter, "only OGRs."

:-)

~Christopher

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Comments (16)

Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years ago
I hope this is a popular post as I so want to add a few, but am reluctant for a variety of reasons. I am adding Mme I. Pierre and some Hybrid Musks, but don't think the latter are strictly OGRs. Anne, yours look magnificenat; you give me hope.
smithdale1z8pnw
7 years ago
Comte de Chambord, Marie Pavie, Penelope, Marchesa Bocella(aka Jacques Cartier), Mme Plantier, Duchesse de Rohan. I'm not quite sure what OGR really means, I thought it was prior to 1867 but I see lots of roses referred to on Antique Roses that are a lot younger. For instance Reve d'or(1869), Mme Jules Bouche(1910 my favorite). In fact Penelope(referred to above) is 1924. Very confusing, perhaps there's another criteria for OGRs.

Jane
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jacqueline9CA
7 years ago
Sara-Ann, you might get more responses to this if you post it on the Antique Roses forum.

Jackie
Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Hands down, my favorite OGR is Jacques Cartier, aka. Marchesa Boccella.

When grown on a rootstock (multiflora on the specimens that I refer to), it grows 4' X 2', rather vertically. Blooms continuously all season long with extravagantly fragrant flowers. Hardy as an oak. Jacques Cartier laughs at wind and rain, not a stem leans or diverts from its bolt upright growth habit.

Yes, it has short necks...not good for cutting. Yes, its blooms are smallish, 3" on average. Yes, the foliage looks droopy, 'wilty,' although it is perfectly all right...just a quirky trait.

Alas, it grows like a sickly wimp in my garden on its own roots! Struggles to reach 2'. Falls apart in the wind or rain. Eats a whole box of Ironite and still pushes out chlorotic foliage. Shovelpruning mine was the most merciful act I could have performed for it.

I would grow Jacques Cartier in a heart beat if I could get one grafted on multiflora rootstock.

The Jacques Cartier I so greatly loved were mature specimens growing in a local public garden. They were growing in full sun, grown in average to below average soil (natural deposition of pyrite clay below 12" of good topsoil, a horrible growing environment, the worst type of clay imaginable), but given very good care, otherwise. They flourished...looked like miniature crab apple trees.

They actually had trunks! These were about 4" across at ground level. Branching started at about 6" up the trunk. They never made basal canes, ever, or any braching on the short, 6" trunk. All new growth came from the trunk at and above the 6" up the trunk point. That's why they looked like miniature crab apple trees. Beautiful!

The bud graft was planted 4" deep.

I was there in 1990 when they were planted, acquired from Pickering Nursery, Canada (sorry they went under: great nursery, great plants, service, and selection).

In 2005, when the Jacques Cartiers were in their prime and at the peak of their glory, they were removed, ripped out savagely in full bloom, with no attempt made to preserve them for replanting. They were discarded into a dumpster to make way for new modern roses. So goes progress.
titian1 10b Sydney
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Well, I'm in a very different zone, but as a group the Teas are my favourite, because they do well here. My favourite Teas are Mrs Dudley Cross, Anna Olivier, William R Smith and Etoile de Lyon, but there are others I'm hoping will do well, foremost being Triomphe de Luxemburg (more probably it is Rhodologue Jules Graveraux), which is a lovely soft pink. I have MIP, but it struggles - too many fungal diseases with the humidity here. I have a couple of Chinas and Rugosas, and they do well too.

Sara-Ann, your roses are stunning. I tried ZD, but it defoliated here, and SdLM, which I have gown successfully in the climbing form, didn't do well here either. I also failed with R de V - had forgotten about that one - so many failures! I loved the blooms of ZD - three's something about the form I found captivating, and a lovely perfume too.

Trish
Lynn-in-TX-Z8b- Austin Area/Hill Country
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
You have beautiful roses, Sara Ann!

I grow about 40 OGR varieties. Everything is under 3 y/o, but these are my favorites thus far.

Blush Noisette : It is the most heat tolerant rose in my garden, has blooms almost non-stop and forms a nicely shaped bush. If I had any idea how well it would perform here, I would have purchased more than 2.

Maman Cochet

Mlle. de Sombreuil - If I could only grow one white rose....modern or OGR.. it would be a toss up between this one and Blush Noisette

Duchesse de Brabant and her sport Mme. Joseph Schwartz

Souvenir du Dr. Jamain

Paul Neyron

Clementina Carbonieri

SDLM

and Mme. Isaac Perierre
romogen
7 years ago
1. Felicite Parmentier

2. Juno

3. Blanchefleur

4. Deuil de Paul Fontaine

5. Waldtraut Nielsen

6. Doorenbos Selection

7. Wildenfels Gelb

8. Baronne Henriette de Snoy

9. Golden Chersonese

10. Rosa minutifolia

11. Rosa hemisphaerica

12. Soleil d'Or

13. Royal Blush

14. White Blush

15. Chaucer
vasue VA
7 years ago
Grew a few of the Bourbons & Hybrid Perpetuals in gardens past, having admired them for years, but couldn't do them justice no spray at the time in high humidity conditions. A handful on the short list to try again in this mature garden, along with a few Teas that might not freeze out. The hardier Noisettes seem a better fit here in positions protected from prevailing winter winds. Camelia Rose, Cato's Cluster & Setzer along with Tea Noisettes Crepuscule, Jaune Desprez & Reve d'Or arrived only last year, so still young & as yet untested. Potted on as they grew (with current pots insulated against the cold) & allowed only one bloom for confirmation, their energy went to root growth as anticipated. But spunky Setzer could barely be prevented from blooming. Pinched as tiny buds began to form, a few days later it was at it again with stubborn determination. In the continued heat of mid-October, stopped pinching those buds. No longer thwarted, Setzer happily flaunted its blooms in clusters & was immediately relocated to the front porch where its penetrating sweet perfume could be savored. Slipped inside a thick glazed pot, with spent flowers snapped off as they faded within the clusters, it bloomed nonstop through Christmas till finally stalled by lingering daytime cold in the teens & twenties. Though the overnight temps have dipped nearly to 0 (F), its leaves are still fresh & pristine. The last set of blooms freeze dried in place & are still decorative. Setzer Noisette has my heart. How appropriate it should find a place back in Virginia again. Greatly looking forward to seasons to come as this plucky rose grows up from its amazing babyhood. Thanks to Jeri that I knew of Setzer to scoop it up from A Reverence for Roses. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.40998

Wonderful to see these old roses grown so well in your gardens! Sue
Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
7 years ago
Thank you for that lovely story. I wonder how it would do in a Z6a/b? I may have to try it next year and find out. Until I clear out the "back forty" most of my beds are in shade Oct. through May and full sun during the Summer.
pat_bamaz7
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Hey Sara Ann,

I haven’t had a chance to post much on the forums lately,
but have been trying to keep up with reading them. I’ve enjoyed seeing your pictures this year…very
beautiful roses!!! I started adding OGRs
to the gardens a few years ago based on reading about them here. I have fallen in love with them, but some are
better suited for our heat & humidity than others. In general, the bourbons and HPs have lots of
blackspot issues here. The noisettes
& teas are better, but some do still spot...love them anyway, though. The
Chinas seem to be the most resistant to fungal diseases in our area. Didn’t think I would like them too much due
to their small flower size, but I’ve found they have a lot of charm and are almost
everblooming during our growing season.

Some of my favorites:

Chinas:

Archduke Charles

Louise Philippe

Noisettes:

Champneys Pink Cluster

Natchitoches Noisette

Mary Washington

Teas:

Mrs. BR Cant

Perle des Jardins

Marie Van Houtte

Maman Cochet

Rosette Delizy
Sara-Ann Z6B OK
Original Author
7 years ago
Thank you so much everyone for your lists and also for the beautiful pictures, Desertgarden and Pat. I appreciate the contributions and good advice. I certainly hope others will show and tell about your favorites. Pat, I am always excited to see your posts, because I admire your roses so much, and have missed seeing them recently. I'm sure you must be busy though.
Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
Pat, OMG those pictures!!! Great thread and all you posters. Too tired to list all mine but I strongly recommend this love which will never end.
Ken (N.E.GA.mts) 7a/b
7 years ago
Pink Pet and Souv de la Malmaison became part of my garden way back in the early 1990's. They are still part of my garden today. Over the past 20+ years many OGR's have come and gone from my garden for a variety of reasons. Mostly either the plants were way to big for my garden or the blooms looked at the ground. I enjoy blooms that look at me. Just my thing. During my search for an OGR that fit into my garden the way I wanted, I found Compt de Chambroud. My new favorite OGR.
Alana8aSC
7 years ago
last modified: 7 years ago
I love my OGR, since I've found them I have gotten few modern roses. Some of my favorites and I maybe leaving a few out.

Madame Lombard

Champneys Pink Cluster

A red China I got from RVR as "Louis Phillipe", but is not. The real one didn't survive our wild weather..

Mons Tiller

Gloire des Rosomaines

Veilchenblu

Gros Choux d'holland

Serrapatela

la Belle sultane

Autumn Damask

Kazanlik

Therese Bugnet

Green Rose

Reine des Violettes

Souviner de brod

excellence von Scubert

Red Cascade

Ispahan

Golden Wings

Ducher

Marie Van Houtte

Another China thats pink and don't recall it's name

Pink Pet

Tip-top

Brittania

William Lobb

R. Pimpinellifolia

Dominie Sampson

Lilian Austin

Orpheline de Juliet

Indigo

Leda

Sophy's Perpetual

Comtesse du Cayla

Mountain Mignonette

Charles Walker Mignonette

Pink Soupert

Christopher Marlowe

Lady Banks-yellow

Hippolyte

Rose du Roi, whatever version I have..

I know there's more, but That's enough for now :P
Sara-Ann Z6B OK
Original Author
7 years ago
Gorgeous roses, Ken and Alana!