I kind of like some variation in plant descriptions. There should of course be broad consistencies, but it would be boring if every site was identical. It promotes reading widely when researching a plant, which is fun and part of the joy of gardening. It's pretty obvious you are hopelessly addicted to it.

LOL,
some inconsistencies are big, though, up to 2 zones of hardiness and the naming
inconsistencies could lead you to buy a 'dwarf' when you wanted an 'even
smaller dwarf' or vice versa.

This is typical.

Well, these are kilo dollar trees at least if I want to enjoy them before I move on to my next place, not particularly small change for marginal and uncertain specs.

whats the base issue ... zone???

densiflora does just fine in my cold Z5 MI ....

generally speaking... adding nana to a cultivar name.. means it has a slower ANNUAL GROWTH RATE ... ergo ... at 10 years.. it will be a smaller plant.. than the standard ....

i THINK .... nomenclature rules now urge peeps to not use latin words in cultivar names .... correct me on that .... and if it has a non english name .. when brought here.. it should not be changed .. else you end up with two names for one plant ... in other words.. why is it more commonly known as Tanyosho... perhaps this is part of the reason for the naming confusion ... which is the whole point of nomenclature .... but i am just speculating .... anyone do better???

ken

If you have a low threshold for plant failure, then I'd avoid those considered marginally hardy for your zone. I'm not fond of losing plants (or money), but it's part of the learning process. Plant research is time well spent and -- along with sound horticultural practices -- will increase the odds of success. However, it's always worth remembering that we're dealing with living organisms and you will lose some of them. Sometimes the reason is right in front of us; sometimes not.

I tend not to spend money on toys (boats, snowmobiles, etc.), but plants are quite another thing. My motto is spend what you can afford to lose. I like to think of myself as a supporter of the nursery industry. :)

"I like to think of myself as a supporter of the nursery industry. :)"

LOL

If we're only talking about zone consideration, I think P. d. 'Umbraculifera' should survive for you, especially if the site offers some protection against winter burn. In Dr. Leon Snyder's book, Trees and Shrubs for Northern Gardens, he lists Japanese Red Pine as hardy in z4, with selected strains hardy in z3. I'm pretty sure there are mature JRP's growing at a Minnesota research forest near Cloquet, which is z3/4. Go for it!

There is a local nursery that gives you a special lecture before buying certain trees or other expensive plants, essentially telling you that there is no guarantee. The Tanyosho is one of those ...

No guarantees in horticulture! Talk to the folks in the SE US or in CA who have plants that are zone-appropriate but have died due to drought. Or those that have plants that are theoretically zone-appropriate but had a winter with outlier temps. Zone designations are based on the best information available if the source is reliable, and based on guesswork or simply repeating another's claim if not. See San Marcos Growers descriptions of their plants. Every one invites others to comment if their experience differs. Most growers don't bother to do that. And even then, there are no guarantees. Sometimes I wish that I had fallen in love with paintings or cars or something besides plants!

Well taken, Sara, we all wish our beloved spouses happiness, health and longevity :-)

Many horticultural information sources aren't that good. The more carefully and competently prepared references are here and there, rather than universal. It is the same as other areas of endeavor - not everyone is working at the same level, to the same standard. And commercial entities are influenced by a desire to encourage and sustain sales, resulting it seems in a tendency to overstate hardiness and understate size potential, for instance. Plus what the USDA Hardiness Zones refer to (average annual minimum temperature) appears to be chronically misunderstood, resulting in wrong Zone assignments to specific plants.

I would have thought that the data in my OP came from the top quartile of horticulture, some of them even from the very top. That's why the inconsistencies have been so disconcerting to me, there is a real issue here.

Think again!

Some useful English language print references are

Bailey, Standard Cyclopedia of Horticulture

Bailey Hortorium, Hortus Third

Bean, Trees and Shrubs Hardy in the British Isles

Hillier Nurseries, R.H.S., Hillier Manual of Trees & Shrubs

Huxley, The New Royal Horticultural Society Dictionary of Gardening

Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees

Lewis, The International Conifer Register

Rehder, Manual of Cultivated Trees and Shrubs Hardy in North America

?

Could you elaborate, Embo?

Edit: Oh, you added the references after I posted, so now it is my turn to edit my post :-)

Anyway, what is the weight of those references? More than MBG and the 2 Universities in the OP? Are those references consistent in terms of naming, hardiness and size for the Tanyosho? If so, what are the data points?

The point being made is that there will not be uniform consistencies in size certainly and with hardiness probably as neither of these are characteristics set in stone. They can be quite variable and most horticultural authorities or recognized references (as listed above) will omit both points. In most cases, you will just find valid taxonomy (no guarantee on that either, as it is also subject to discussion and change), growth habit and rate of growth. You might get a 10 year size estimation as well.

MOBOT, other arboretum and university data bases and any data supplied by sellers/growers are just guidelines for information for the average gardener and are not considered horticultural authorities. The ACS and other plant specific society data bases are several steps above and should have better but not always 100% accurate information (as we saw in the prior thread with this discussion). If anything they will be the most current on new cultivar listings.

Well, that
reads like the data sources in my OP are already the most relevant for the
average gardener, whereas with respect Embo's list is less so. Of course, that leaves the
issues stated in the OP unresolved.

And they will be, for the reasons stated above.

Maybe Embo (and others) should chime in.

I read, or rather scanned this whole thing...what was the question? I was looking to see if Dwf Tanyosho would take the Texas zone 8 summers...i did see a comment on Dave's garden it was doing great in zone 8b. Guess I'll just have to go by that and hope? Looks gorgeous now...but we are in early March.

".what was the question?"

Not entirely sure :-) The original poster is one that tended to ask questions with expected very defined, cut-and-dried answers. And that happens very rarely in gardening!

But to help answer your question, the USDA hardiness zones are only a measure of winter cold tolerance. They tell you nothing about tolerance for summer heat and humidity, so how well a Tanyosho will do in a Texas summer is very much up for debate. Your zone 8b summer will be very different from mine!

Are they commonly sold and/or planted in your area? That would be the best way to judge. Also, length of time after planting (how well established the tree is) will play a major role as well. Yet to be fully established trees will have a much harder time with temperature extremes.

I began looking at them last fall at a wholesale nursery in Austin nearest big city to me. I wanted to see how they looked after beig exposed to the winter. I BELIEVE at the time I was told Tanyosho was better aclimated to our climate than Mugho, and did better in containers, which is what I plan to do. I have a 14" allowance for growing medium to be used in conjuncion with a homemade self watering system I devised after copious watchings of Youtubes on the subject. I was planning to buy an Ollie originally as it was recommended by the makers of these huge planters. I'm not convinced I can't replicate and even improve the water holding capacity and save quite a chunk of change at the same time. This will have an inch air space between the water and the wicking medium, supposed to allow for root pruning. Big fan of that idea.

Do you have experience with sucha thing? My containers are huge, 32" cube

Tanyosho Compacta after many years

yes I know illegitimated

ron

Ron, in what way illegitimated...where do you have it planted?

'Tanyosho Compacta' is not a valid cultivar name. Nether is 'Umbraculifera Compacta'. I believe that's what is meant by illegitimate. The accepted name is Pinus densiflora 'Umbraculifera Nana'.

Is it considered a form of Mugho pine? I'm not very familiar with this obviously...

No. Pinus mugo (note spelling) is an entirely separate species with a zillion cultivars, from very tiny, low growing dense cushions to quite good sized trees of about 20' or so.

gal is very much right ! (on all counts )even the zillion part

I just like the name Tanyosho

I do tooo! But wonder in what world a Japanese (I'm assuming here) cultivar would have any adaptibiity to Texas extremes.

in the conifer world

There are conifers that are adaptable here, and some that are not....so not really an answer to my question. Oh well, I guess we shall try and see, unless someone in Central Texas can weigh in.

Not in all cases ,,,but one would think if they are selling it there , that they do well .

ONLY with the assumption that it is a very good nursery

ron

OH , your comments about watering in containers , conifers like good drainage & drying between watering

My understanding is that the plant will wick moisture as needed. There is an dead air space between the water and the actual medium.

A dead air space will cause a perched water table and the medium will not drain properly, Best to have a consistant medium top to bottom in a container.

tj

No, the water wicks...roots just doesn't stand in water. I'll check it out first..but that is my understanding from watching copious youtubes and readin up on the subject.

And , did they refer to conifers ?

Today beleive it or not is the moment of truth. Been in the hundreds much of June...not likely to let up anytime soon. The Tanyosho's are officially put to bed in the self watering pots. Prior to that were in black nursery pots with not much medium as they were B&B when I bought them. Looks to be they were dug from solid clay...but surprisingly although dropping needles, have bright green tufts on new growth, with only a few brownies at the new tips of some of the lower branches. I really worked at the potting medium in the self watering containers. Planning to top dress with worm castings..it's been so long I can't remember the whole story, but I got that from a Tanyosho grower somewhere. Didn't see Plantkiller's comment, and again...I've slept since then...no idea about the pine reference. Can't imagine the situation is worse than the one they were in up til yesterday:)