Revolver. Loaded with freshly sharpened colored pencils. She meant business.

Now really if I shot the pencils out of the revolver, they'd probably break the points and I really like my pencils sharp.

If they're as sharp as they should be, you should totally be able to just pull them back out and wipe 'em off.

Hey, I'll bet previous threads on here didn't end with architects being shot with pencils, lol. This may be the worst thread yet! Watch your backs!!!

(Sorry, I'll delete if that was too morbid!)

Wow. That was a lot to digest and I think it's best to just say that we can agree to disagree. I have opinions, you have opinions. I love the 'free advice' found here. And maybe someday I'll get brave enough to post my proposed house plans. No one is holding a colored pencil revolver to your head and forcing you to build. And I promise not to force anyone (except for my immediate family) to live in my house.

Virgil I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me what the price of Honey Crisp apples will be in August. Anyone?

Ok I have a crystal ball and since there is a new fangled apple out called Arctic granny apple. Guess what, it doesn't turn brown!!. And it's going to be the best new Apple ever. And it comes from the okanagan valley which is Way up in Canada. And because it is just so yummy it will put all the other apples to shame. So I am certain all the other apples, honey crisp too, will sell for .10 cents each. Just you all wait...it's true. lol.

The bottom line is, there is a bunch of good people on this forum. And this is so good to have, in this silly, crazy world of ours. ! Wouldn't it be fun if we could all meet up...cheers!

Amy. I have opinions, you have opinions. I love the 'free advice' found here. And maybe someday I'll get brave enough to post my proposed house plans.

Please post your house plans. It's ok, really. (;

I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me what the price of Honey Crisp apples will be in August. Anyone?

August is way too early for Honeycrisps, at least locally. Then - $5/qt box at the farmer's market is likely to be within 10%, as that's what they've gone for consistently for the last 5 years. There are now so many orchards that even a regional hail storm or late frost in unlikely to move that pricepoint much. Gluts never drop the price because they actually store pretty well, and they're already at the upper range of what people are willing to pay for mere apples.

I'm not really that fond of Honeycrisps, though. Overmarketed and underperforming. Look for SweeTangos instead - created by the same hybridizing team as Honeycrisps, but a bit more of a tart profile.

(You did ask, Virgil)

^^^ And she's not even in an industry related to apples!

Virgil

To me your reality sounds like a fantasy. A bid is binding so it does mean something. And a Guaranteed Maximum Price is an upper limit on cost in a Cost of the Work contract. Unless you hire a contractor as an estimator, the only estimates in the construction world are for their own use. Allowances for Lump Sum contracts and Budgets for Cost of the Work contracts aren't really estimates; you can't estimate the cost of something that has not yet been defined; you must guess and that's not an estimate.

If the bid documents are complete, a contractor does not need to guess at future costs and take risks; he would have prices from his suppliers and subs that were as binding as his bid to the owner.

If there are Allowances or Budgets involved the owner takes the future cost risk. They should not be used and when used they should be for materials not labor.

No contractor ever added 25% to a bid as a contingency and got the job. A good contractor lowers his risk by good take-offs and project management. It is the owners who should carry contingencies for the unknown.

Home construction management is not the wild west although it has lagged behind the times but most builders are not as devious and self-serving as you suggest. However, an architect can be very helpful since even good contractors can make mistakes or poor choices.

Now your've made me defend contractors.

Since you insist on using the apple metaphor, I'll extend the analogy. Let's say I'm planning a wedding, and hire a wedding planner (the architect). If my food budget is $75/head, she doesn't need to know the exact price of food a year out to know that I'm not serving my guests lobster and rack of lamb (the materials). And she knows that I'm not having my wedding at the Ritz Carlton (the venue is the contractor, who ultimately sets the price). We end up at a local catering hall, and yes, maybe she underestimates and we settle on NY Strip vs. Prime Rib, or my flowers are less plentiful, but we're in the ballpark. She isn't planning for the Ritz and we end up with a backyard bbq.

Also note that the venue may finalize the menu 3 or 6 months out, and increasing or decreasing food prices in the interim are a known risk in the business. Also, like homebuilding, the majority of the costs aren't materials, but labor, and the cost/unit there is fairly predictable as well (and its the contractors/venue runner's job to accurately predict the units needed).

Now, as I hate analogies, I'll just relate my experience, which was excellent, and I believe that if most had this experience they'd be excited to use an architect. He drew up the plans after consultation on our needs/wants/budget, etc. He had a local contractor with whom he's worked well in the past and who works on similar scope projects give an estimate. It came in about 10% above our desire, which was close enough for us to not change anything and let the architect go through and develop a more formal plan to bid out. During that process we asked for itemization of a few specific wants which we could pick & choose from to get to our desired budget. Bids came back - this original builder was right where he said he'd be. Others were a little lower or drastically higher. We went with this guy b/c his reputation was great, he worked on similar projects so we felt confident we'd get what we were expecting, and we liked that he had a good working relationship w/the architect.

House finished on time, on budget. Surprises were few so we were even able to release much of the reserve to get back a couple of those wants (obviously this last part is part luck, part good work by the builder and architect).

Bottom line: I like architects and feel their value is worth as much or more than their cost, when they do their job well. But I've seen too many friends have the experience of many on here of beautiful plans that were 30-50% over budget, and had to be totally redrawn, making an already stressful endeavour unnecessarily more so.

Also note, we didn't pay for this estimate from the builder. I can't think of a more symbiotic relationship where referrals should drive each other than an architect and a builder. Each should have a small roster of the other whom they confidently work with for the benefit of themselves and their customers.

Maybe some of this is local? What Virgil says makes 100% sense to me.

I'm in Texas, and I gotta say, there are horror stories all over the place regarding contractors. Apparently, TX is really lax when it comes to builder/contractor licensing requirements, and the laws do not favor consumers/homeowners. It is my understanding that the same dude who files bankruptcy after taking millions of money from several families can simply start again under a different business name. He can keep doing this until he figures out how to run a proper business model (if, that is, in fact a goal).

The market here is beyond insane, with all real estate/property/whatever being overvalued by at least 20%. Prices are increasing daily.

The homebuilding industry here also employs many folks who aren't in the country legally, who will work for very little out of necessity, and who have no recourse if they aren't paid.

So, at least in my part of the world, it sure *feels* like the wild west, lol!

JDS, your reality needs a new optical prescription. You simply didn't read what I wrote (or understand it). You jumped to your own conclusions.

I did not write that "a bid (is not) binding"!

I wrote, "...Has anyone ever...I mean come on...ever considered that an early "estimate" (emphasis added) from a builder may just...just...be a low ball means to try to get the construction contract, followed by a huge upcharge for the actual construction? Come on--this is so common and so predictable.

The only cost to build that is worth anything is the cost contained in a construction contract to be signed by the owner and the builder (emphasis added). No other "estimates", "bids" or other quotations have any meaning. None. The only thing which matters is the cost contained in the construction contract (emphasis added).

Please read what I write. And perhaps call your local optometrist for an appointment.

You know as well as I do that this thread, and lot of other threads here, now, and in the past, are full of comments from consumers who think they can take an early preliminary sketch to a contractor, and the contractor: 1) Will give them an "estimate" or a "bid" or some other cost figure--these are consumer terms used time and again on this Forum--for what it would take to build the house; and 2) The consumers think they can actually rely on the "estimate", "bid" or whatever they want to call it, based on the early preliminary sketch; and 3) Finally, the contractor will actually stick to that "estimate", "bid" or cost figure when and if it comes time to sign a construction contract.

Thereafter, consumers are simply shocked that the final binding bid for construction may be double or more from the original "estimate", "bid" or cost figure based on the early preliminary sketch.

Consumers simply do not understand the verbal distinctions you and I as architects make when it comes to terminology about "estimates", "bids", cost figures or any other related terminology. Plus they just don't understand what it takes in the form of final, detailed drawings and specifications, and the extensive time and expertise it takes by a reputable contractor, and sub contractors, to put together a realistic and binding bid.

Contractor's early "estimates", "bids"or whatever anyone wants to call them, based on an early preliminary plan or sketch, are valueless. The contractor scratched his head, held his finger to the wind, used his last costs for some sort of house, took 5 minutes and produced a number! Often it's a $/SF number! How useful is that?

The only cost figure which is legally binding, and therefore meaningful, is the one on the construction contract. And...as I pointed out there are many types of construction contracts, and thus even the binding bid price on the contract for construction may not be the actual construction cost, depending on the contents, terms an conditions of the contract.

You understand this. I understand this. Every architect and contractor on this Forum understands this.

The point is many consumers don't understand this or have the remotest idea.

That's the point!

And I like and respect contractors, so I have no trouble defending them when they do their job professionally and with integrity.

PG, Holly and others in the Apple Industry: Thanks for the tips about the new varieties of apples which are on the way. I love Honey Crisps, but am always on the look out for tasty new varieties. Do you know when these new varieties may hit grocer's shelves? Yumm-eeee! :-)

"I did not write that "a bid (is not) binding"!"

What you wrote was that bids don't have any meaning and I disagreed with that statement.

Here is what you said:

"The only cost to build that is worth anything is the cost contained in a construction contract to be signed by the owner and the builder. No other "estimates", "bids" or other quotations have any meaning. None."

Your reference to my optometrist is childish and apparently intended to offend me. Your opinions on contractual matters are amateurish, hyperbolic and difficult to follow. Pay more attention to what you write.

SweeTangos are already available, though in somewhat limited supply. (Like the Honeycrisp, they're trademarked). I can get them in MY grocery store, but I live in Apple Country. (Which is how I know the market price of Honeycrisps. And Galas. And Jonagolds. Etc.) Not sure how widely distributed they are, but I'd presume upstate New York would have a decent supply - they're bred by UMinn, and most northern climates like their stuff.

OTOH, if you really have a yen for unusual apples, Treemendous Fruit in Eu Claire, MI, ships boxes of heirloom varieties. :-)

Holly, great information. I live in the Hill Country in south-central Texas, where we get Honeycrisp apples, and other varieties all year long from somewhere--perhaps some giant freezer somewhere. I dunno! I'll look for the SweeTangos and the Artic Granny which PG mentioned. Great information! :-)

JDS wrote, "...To me your reality sounds like a fantasy..." and, "...Your opinions on contractual matters are amateurish, hyperbolic and difficult to follow. Pay more attention to what you write..."

"...Your patronizing, condescending attitude is offensive..."

You know, my friend, you should really learn how to tell us what you really think. Don't hold back so much...

PS: I can loan you my reading glasses if you have misplaced yours... PM me!

Your patronizing, condescending attitude is offensive.

Hey Virgil. Here's more about the Canadian Arctic apple...

Arctic® apples aren’t slow browning. They aren’t low browning. They’re nonbrowning!! Made Only in Canada

Not only do Arctic® apples make healthy eating easier, consumers who participated in taste tests told us sliced Arctic® apples had a better crunch, texture and visual appeal than conventional slices. The advantages and convenience of Arctic® apples are unparalleled You can enjoy slices straight from the bag, placed into containers for lunch, or added to your salad for more crunch –the possibilities are endless!

We’re extremely excited to be selling sliced Arctic® Golden slices in select midwestern U.S. stores for test markets in 2017.

PG, what's the correct terminology: Artic Granny, Artic Golden, both, neither or something else? I'm gonna look for these when I next go to HEB, and see if they have made it to The Great State of Texas! :-)

Hey virigil, taken From their website

WE TOOK THREE OF NORTH AMERICA’S TOP VARIETIES AND IMPROVED THEM WITH THE NONBROWNING TRAIT, RESULTING IN ARCTIC® GOLDEN, ARCTIC® GRANNY, AND ARCTIC® FUJI APPLES.

FUTURE VARIETIES

Arctic® Gala apples next in line

Love the idea of Arctic® Goldens, Arctic® Grannies, and Arctic® Fuji but still waiting for us to get to your favorite variety? Don’t worry, we’ve got plenty more in the pipeline! The next nonbrowning variety we’re planning to bring to eager apple-eaters is the Arctic® Gala, and we can’t wait! They’re already growing in our field trials, and we’ll be sure to share updates once they’re getting closer to market, so keep an eye on the Find Our Apples section and consider following us on our blog and on social media, too!

Virgil...maybe you will have to travel waaaay, up north to the okanagan valley to get these apples. Then you can visit the oggoppogo lake monster too.

If I was independently wealthy, I would like to build robotic, remote controlled, snake-like monsters and place them in random lakes around the world. Just for fun.

Ooooh, PG, swimming monsters...I likee! Sorta like my bathtub toy...ODD, I knew I liked the way you think. Mebbe we can start a Texas Robot Swimming Monster factory...

Goshdangit, now y'all got me looking at cryptozoology
articles on Wikipedia!

I used to think that the most... imaginative...
folks lived in Europe, what with Loch Ness and everything. I was
totally wrong! There's a large concentration of... imaginative... folks
in North America (Canada virtually has a lake monster for every lake!), Africa, and Asia, too.

Not quite as many crazies in Australia. Perhaps because they have enough real life scary stuff????

Hey there Virgil and ODD check this out. Can you find him? Lol

Oz has got some of the scariest animal life of anywhere. Oddly, New Zealand has none! 'Splain that! For example, Croc-Eating Pythons. Welcome to Australia, the land where snakes are so huge the eat crocodiles whole! ... Giant Deadly Bird Attacks. ... Insanely Huge Bats. ... Snake-Eating Spiders. ... Spiders Infestation. ... Super Strong Snakes. ... Dingo Ate My Sharkyand more...much more.

Ok. Do you guys Dare to forage in the forest to find this guy

The men who don these costumes, and wander around national parks, must get the biggest kick out of all the commotion they stir up. I mean, seriously. That one photo looks like the Himalayas' Yeti decided to vacation at Banff.

Can we say, college kid lost a bet? :-D

Awe c'mon ODD... college kid, really...these kids spend 24/7, studying, working diligently on school work, exams...they are prepping for their futures and work hard to pay off their loans and parents too. And they definitely don't take time off school and studying for such foolhardy pranks.! Lol

Whew! This thread makes me want to go to bed. It's amazing to me that some actually have time, lots of time, to go on and on and on and... There are bigger problems in the world. Geez.

Whew! This thread makes me want to go to bed. It's amazing to me that some actually have time, lots of time, to go on and on and on and... There are bigger problems in the world. Geez.

Yet you took the time to comment and make a snide comment showing how superior you are?

Yes, the sole purpose of this entire website (Houzz) is to solve wealthy first-world problems. ;-) I try to use it as educational material, myself. Mostly. lol

So is it working ODD?

More or less. You wouldn't *believe* the garbage I have to wade through!

ODD. Remember, garbage is fun. As they say one mans garbage is another's treasure. And I think there's a lot of treasure and fun in this thread. You wanna come find the oggopogos, Sasquatch or aliens. Where do you wanna meet! Hey Cp want to join us. Lol.

seeiously though,There are a bunch of good people who freely share so much on this forum. And it does help make the world a better place! (:

If someone can make treasure from the trash I find, more power to them, lol.

Seriously, this thread has been a lot of fun. Not much garbage here (I consider hostility to be one type of garbage), and in the interests of humility, I'm not exempting myself from shamefully generating a little here and there.

Overall, the forums here are a blast. I'll leave y'all to judge what that says about me. :-D Not sure I'm learning as much as I could/should, but in order to do that properly, I need to get my bum over to Amazon and order ARG's list of books he gave me!

If you don't live in an area with strict building codes an architect is an waste unless you absolutely want "custom" but be prepared to pay. Most are better off selecting a plan from one of the big name designers they like best all while saving mega bucks in the process. Architects love to come here with their hideous designs screaming "But but but... it's beautiful according to muh textbook!". Seriously it's sad watching new members coming here asking for some simple advice and instead of assessing their wants and showing them some compatible house-plans, they're bombarded with "You need to seek out a professional asap!". There's plenty of well designed plans out there that'll fit just about any families needs.

Your entitled to your opinion Jacob. However not everyone agrees with you. Most of the plan houses are fairly mundane and poorly designed. Yes there are some good ones, but not the names that get bandied about here over and over. There are some good ones, but you have to search for their names.

Mr. Smalls, let me guess...you aren't an architect by any chance?

Virgil, you've got one thing right. There's definitely a huge superiority complex around here. Keep in mind, where I live high-end homes are built for $120-$130SqFt. Most others come in around $90-$105. There also aren't any strict codes to abide by so most plans can be bought and built without a hitch. If you live in a high cost area, have strict codes, or you're building a mansion I understand the appeal. And sometimes "custom" is necessary such as wanting to fit a 3000sqft house on a small odd shaped lot.

Jacob said "But but but... it's beautiful according to muh textbook!". Seriously it's sad watching new members coming here asking for some simple advice and instead of assessing their wants and showing them some compatible house-plans, they're bombarded with "You need to seek out a professional asap!". I once was a newbie to this forum, lurking around for about a year. Eventually I became educated, especially with the myth that architects are impossibly and prohitively unaffordable. Perhaps, in some areas or instances this is the case. Just like any other professional, there are those that charge a lot more than others. I admire the pros and talented individuals who offer their services freely here, on this forum. You are welcome to read my experiences,http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4449548/the-journey-for-the-plan-has-finally-been-realized-long?n=40

We're getting ready to do a whole house remodel and addition to our one story home. We've found a builder that we like and will be working with an architect to prepare our plans.

I'm anticipating that working with an architect will give us the cohesive exterior look we want, as opposed to an addition that looks like it was just an afterthought slapped on to the original house. I'm hoping for a finished design that looks like a beautifully renovated farmhouse that was added on over time.

I'm also hoping to achieve the most ideal layout, since the current footprint is so lacking. I know what I want but need help translating that into a workable design.

If you don't live in an area with strict building codes an architect is an waste unless you absolutely want "custom" but be prepared to pay.

Or if you don't want a house that's a disaster because there aren't strict codes; codes that protect people from shoddy work or bad engineering.

For example, I'm in FL. After hurricane Andrew, codes became much stricter and thankfully so since most of the homes that blew apart in Homestead wouldn't have if they were built to stricter codes with things like hurricane strapping.

Or if you don't want a house that's a disaster because there aren't strict codes; codes that protect people from shoddy work or bad engineering.

For example, I'm in FL. After hurricane Andrew, codes became much stricter and thankfully so since most of the homes that blew apart in Homestead wouldn't have if they were built to stricter codes with things like hurricane strapping.

So you want to double your cost so that it shows hurricane strapping on the plan? You don't need an architect to add hurricane strapping, your builder can easily accommodate that. If you receive shoddy work, I recommend finding another builder.

We're getting ready to do a whole house remodel and addition to our one story home. We've found a builder that we like and will be working with an architect to prepare our plans.

I'm anticipating that working with an architect will give us the cohesive exterior look we want, as opposed to an addition that looks like it was just an afterthought slapped on to the original house. I'm hoping for a finished design that looks like a beautifully renovated farmhouse that was added on over time.

I'm also hoping to achieve the most ideal layout, since the current footprint is so lacking. I know what I want but need help translating that into a workable design.

I think you're making the right decision.

Or if you don't want a house that's a disaster because there aren't strict codes; codes that protect people from shoddy work or bad engineering.

Codes are established and enforced by the local building department and built-to by the builder and the subs. Practically all architects must have a structural engineer design and specify the critical structural aspects of a house when local building requirements dictate.

It is always useful to look at the OP's question again.

P G asked, "Why are people reluctant to contact an architect let alone hire one?"

Jacob Small touches on some reasons but seems to blame architects offering free online advice for discouraging the use of architects. I think people will do whatever they want and can survive the opinions of any and all members here regardless of their training as long as they they can remember how rare free advice is today.

I have noticed that the people who get the most from this forum are the ones who thank everyone for their advice even when it is highly critical. I know I am a sucker for anyone who can stand up to criticism here and in my life. Adult behavior elicits adult responses. Its one of the most rewarding lessons in life but one of the most difficult to apply.

I have noticed that the people who get the most from this forum are the ones who thank everyone for their advice even when it is highly critical. I know I am a sucker for anyone who can stand up to criticism here and in my life.

And in response to that, it was JDS who first saved the exterior of my house from becoming a draftsman's joke. Was he critical? Absolutely but rightfully so. And so were ARG and Virgil with their advice.