The spruce I haven't seen, these I would definitely stake. Tying them closely, at more than one point, so that the entire stem is straightened.

It's var. hondae from Northern Japan and not a garden form. Which is how you could have gotten plants raised from seed and have them still be true to name. If instead these specimens are of clonal origin (cutting raised, for instance) then that would make this occurrence a (presumably) unnamed clonal cultivar of the var. hondae.

Here you go this is the thread about the spruce: http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/4552901/how-to-straighten-bent-curved-conifer-trees

Well I just asked them and they said they were grown from cuttings. Would being an unnamed clonal cultivar make it any different from the original hondai? Like size differences, foliage differences.. anything?

If it's as Embothrium suspects and you got var. hondae, the cuttings will be identical to the parent tree. With naturally occurring varieties, there is still some variability within the population though the variety retains distinctive characteristics from other varieties (or the straight species) within the species group. So, there is not one archetypal var. hondae

A warning, they are quite slow when young...they might look like a Thuja, but they don't grow nearly as fast.

Mine looks very similar to yours. I've staked mine, but not so much to straighten the trunk (which isn't possible in my case), but to keep it from toppling over. I assume the trunk will take care of itself over time.

They don't grow super-fast when they are older, either!

LOL Sara, true.

youve got the right question .. but the wrong premise ..

they need to be staked ... so your top heavy plants dont flop around in wind .. and while your at it.. you may as well straighten them out ...

a nice thinnish 18 to 24 inch stake.. slid right down the trunk at ground level .. and then tied in 3 or 4 places ought to do the trick ... i used to use COTTON clothes line.. as its large diameter.. allowed me to untie and retie whenever my little heart desired ..

the longer stake.. also might allow you to push it right threw the weep hole.. and stabilize the whole pot.. from falling over in wind storms ...

is there any reason you arent using nursery pots???

ken

Ok I will definitely stake them. Not yet though, I think I'll wait 2 weeks until the roots start establishing out in the soil a bit. Ken I'm not selling them those are mine that I'm gonna grow in pots for a while until eventually planted in the ground in about 7 years.

Btw when you say slow growing, how slow would that be? Like Japanese umbrella pine slow?

many nurseries.. have recycle bins.. where you can pick up free pots ... that was my point ...

that said ... having all your pots.. of one size ... and all with the same media ...... tends to mean.. they will dry out around the same time... this is kinda important ... as you can water them all at the same time ...

whereas if you have all different sizes.. then they dont dry at the same time ..

i see no reason to wait on the staking.. but no hurry ... in tree time.. two weeks is NOTHING ... and i wouldnt expect much of any root growth ... maybe a quarter inch. if the media stays warm.. within growing temps.. and this time of year.. thats questionable ...

i know your premise ... i try to discuss.. with you on your learning curve.. variables .... when you have perfected all the variables ... you can barely lose ...

todays discussion was wind ... pots.. media.. watering.. staking and tying .. lol .. good luck trying to remember all those ...

ken

Slow in a tree can still be over one ft. per year, with fast growing trees managing multiple times that. I've had two different plantings of Japanese Umbrella Pine do 1 ft.+ here, once established. Unfortunately the first specimen was planted in a foundation bed right in front of the kitchen window and had to be cut down, the other was up at the back of the property but got overtaken and spoiled by a rose, when maybe 15 ft. tall.

Slow seems to be typical of regionally native conifers used in Japanese gardening, or in gardens elsewhere. Hiba, Hinoki, Sawara, Umbrella Pine etc. - all slow.

Oh I usually buy my pots and they're about 8$ each. Idk how well they'll do in weak, plastic nursery pots especially since I'll be growing it for more than 5 years. Ok then I think I will start staking tomorrow. Is there a general rule on when to take the stake off?

Well this is why I start growing my trees now so by the time I buy myself a property they'll be in good size!

I've had one for several years and it's slow growing. Definitely a cutting. Maybe it will pick up the pace this year. The 3 Thujopsis dolabrata trees I have grow much faster for me and I like them very much. No pests and always a clean look.

Has some resemblance to material sold as 'Nana'.

Is there a general rule on when to take the stake off?

==>>> no ... you put one in.. tie the plant to it.. and observe it every month or two ... retie if necessary ... put in a larger stake to accomplish whatever goal .. etc ...

its an art.. not a science.. meaning.. no rules.. just learning ...

ken

Removal after one year is recommended.

I've had a few rooted cuttings of T. dolabrata. They have grown fine in Ohio but in a "bird's nest" pattern, not like a tree, they do not initially want to grow vertically. But one is finally showing signs (or pretending) to have a central leader, after 7-8 years. Of the other Dolabrata that I've yet seen in Ohio (which is not many) none have a central vertical leader, they are just vague bushy things. Very attractive thou and winter hardy/stay greenish in 5b. Must not be profitable to propagate on a large scale? Too difficult to get cuttings to grow vertically?

With conifers position on source plants of cuttings or scions often affects subsequent development. Sometimes indefinitely. This has been called cultivariance. Resulting faux cultivars may be sold under cultivariant names, 'Prostrata' coast redwood for example. This supposedly flat growing form may not be very slow about showing it is really 'Cantab' at all, with leaders often soon appearing after installation on final planting sites. Resulting in an indefinitely recurring pruning chore, when preservation of the low habit is desired.

"With conifers position on source plants of cuttings or scions often affects subsequent development."

To go OT for a moment, does it not affect other plants as well? I've previously posted that this is an observation I'm making with increasing frequency - that certain cutting or graft grown BLEs, for example, require a lot of pruning to force them to return to apical dominance in a timely manner. (And of course as you and others have mentioned before, with a handful of conifers it is impossible, at least with normal means. Like certain Araucarias.)

Maybe there's just a range of degrees to which it is a problem...from not at all (most rhododendrons as far as I can tell*)...to moderate (hollies that throw up waterspouts for 4-5 years after planting, but are done with that now, apparently) to severe deal breakers if you want a tree at all.

As for Thujopsis mine is a 3'X3' bush and hasn't chosen a leader yet, apparently...after at least 6 years.

* although people "expect" those to have rounded shapes anyhow, I've found ones that have a tendency to be lanky and upright, are lanky and upright when cutting grown.

When you guys say slow growing how slow are you talking about? What will be its likely size in say 60 years of age?

I have a 15-year old Thujopsis dolabrata that is currently 20 feet (6 m) tall.

4 × 15 = 60 years

4 × 20 feet = 80 feet (24 m)

(rather slow for a "big tree")

I think math is really cool that way.

This kind of thing varies a lot with growing site conditions and genetics.

. . . goes without saying. One wouldn't expect results even close to this in Phoenix, Arizona.

Glaciers, is your thujopsis a hondai variety? Because I think hondais are a little smaller than the regular thujopsis dolobrata.

Your math is basically saying that this tree will grow the same rate every year for 60 years straight. But I thought trees slow down their growth as they age? If it was supposed to be this simple, I would have figured that 80 feet height right away. But because with growth slowing as they age I can't come to think of an estimate height. And 20 feet in 15 years is very fast growing..thats like more than a foot per year which I consider fast growing.

Also maybe my zone 6b(thujopsis hardy to only 5b) may be too cold for them and affect their growth rate?

Mine is straight species T. dolabrata var. dolabrata.

They do slow down . . . after a few hundred years. For a tree, 60 years is still pretty young; it will still be going strong.

None of my references say anything about var. hondai growing slower. The major varietal distinction is its distribution range (Japan: Hokkaido and northern Honshu islands).

USDA Zone 6 is warmer than 5b. Fully winter hardy for this species.

Hmm ok.. 80 feet. Looks like I should be prepared. Do you know how wide the tree would be at 80 feet? How wide is your 20 feet tree now?

This is a funny species. Low branches tend to root where they touch the ground then start growing in a tree form. Not inconceivable for a large tree to actually form a grove many acres wide.

Thankfully I took action before mine got out of hand. It's now about 8 feet wide. I debulked it by almost half last spring.

That is funny. I've never seen a tree doing that but I have seen hydrangeas, forsythias and bittersweets doing that. Oh so its width is less than half its height. Thats great news. I don't really care how tall it gets but I worry about its width so it doesn't take over the whole yard!

Just saw this post in http://www.conifers.org/cu/Thujopsis.php

'The only record I have is for a specimen in Queens Gardens, Nelson, New Zealand, that was 71.9 cm dbh and 14.8 m tall when measured in 2011; it was planted ca. 1895 (Cadwallader 2011). This would easily be the largest of all the ornamental specimens I have seen.'

Now thats funny because this tree is 120 years old and still only 50 feet? I guess this tree slows its growth rate down at an early age?

I just reviewed Eckenwalder's description of the species. He states a mature height of 30m or approximately 100 feet tall with a trunk diameter of 60cm, around 2 feet. I would say that's the point where it would begin to "slow down." So, in a way, I suppose it's a "smallish tree."

I would certainly never base the behavior on an entire species on the observation of a single tree growing in New Zealand. Although I must admit that's an awesome specimen.

I really hope he is referring that 100 feet tall in its native range(Japan) and not in cultivated areas. Because I know many trees grow bigger in their native area and much smaller when cultivated elsewhere. But if it really is going to get 100 feet, I might plant it in a partially shady location to delay growth

It's also possible that they may do better in cultivation. This species likes lots of water and high humidity. Sounds like it may go gang-busters in New Jersey. Also if it's in partial shade it's going to stretch toward the sun. Trees just want to be trees.

This thread prompted me to pay my tree a visit. Confirmed at about 20' tall with a 6' spread.

It's just starting to push some fresh growth.

This is what I was talking about with the rooted branches. I took out around 20 of them, but kept a few because I think they're cool and represent the species.

But of course, nothing beats the cultivar, 'Nana' if you have a small landscape. This one is about 10 years old, about a foot tall and 3 feet wide.

It's noteworthy that when growing at high altitude, this species grows as more of a shrub form.

Nice looking thujopsis there. But it looks more like 15 feet to me. Did you actually measure its height?

Btw.. If this tree is going to be 80 feet it's bigger than an arborvitae green giant. Why don't people use this instead? Lol

How can you possibly measure something by looking at a picture???

Thujopsis doesn't screen as well as a Green Giant and probably more expensive too. If you're doing a hedge that makes a big difference.

I imagined myself(I'm 5'10 btw) standing right next to it and added another of myself on top and I don't see 3 of me being any shorter than the tree. But who knows, its a picture afterall so it might be looking smaller than it is. But how did you measure it? Are you guessing or did you actually somehow measure it?

Phone: triangulation app. 18 feet, 7.62 inches.