jleibrock,,,actually, paint talk is for pros, I just found out. but they said they have a DIYlink for you to post your issue. many of the pros answer questions on there.

http://www.diychatroom.com

also, read this guys steps on how he paints. he breaks it all down.

http://sharrardpainting.ca/#paintingcabinetdoors

Thanks, Beth. Really appreciate that perspective too. I really hope he will stand by his work and come up with an acceptable solution for all of us...

Whenever u hire a professional to do work of any kind u expect And should get "professional work". That being said, u have said ur self he has 100 percent guarantee n at this point u should give him a chance to inspect the work n make good on that guarantee. I know how upset n afraid of the possible outcome "could" be, but try n relax n insist he come to ur house to see for himself the problems u are having. see how he responds to ur request since u might be worrying for nothing IF he is true to his word.

But., to say u will "move" is really just passing the problem on to some other innocent person. Ask ur self if that is something u would want someone to do to u?

Just saying......

Good luck.

Janelle, I gotta tell you, the paint pro in my BM store recommended FIVE coats of paint when I bought my Advance paint for my cabinets - 3 thin coats, and 2 regular. I looked at him like he had 3 eyes! No way was I going to have time for five coats of paint! That said, now that I am done, I totally understand where he was coming from. For the paint I used, initial thin coats are critical. I probably did do 3 coats in many places, and certainly I did 3 on the trim. Thick coats are not good...much better to do multiple thin careful coats.

I was just looking at your pictures again. I notice that the original wood was natural and probably had a coat of varnish on it (and on the cabinet probably conversion varnish) Did you notice if he by any chance sanded down that varnish at all or did anything to roughen the surface? If he didn't, then that is clearly what the problem is.

jleibrock, he did not sand the trim???? Good grief. I sure wish you had gotten a different painter. :-( Cabinet Coat might be fine to use on BARE WOOD, but if your wood was a finished surface, such as varnish, you absolutely MUST prime (after sanding too of course) and it's best to use Zinsser BIN as it has excellent bonding properties. It's really the best primer out there. And even if he was painting a painted surface, he should have sanded!

Homebody, I will definitely try and not freak out too much and give him a chance to make good on his guarantee. And as I had said above, I have no reason at this point to think that he won't take steps to make it right. Whether it's re-doing some or all of the surfaces, or as Beth suggests, having him cover the cost of new trim and moldings. The reason for my move comment is that we are a young family (four year old daughter and another on the way) we can't really handle extra sensitive painted trim so if this is going to be the case, we will have to move. We would certainly disclose the painted trim issues to a potential buyer and hope that someone else would be able to be a bit easier on it then our family is able to be...

Ok I think you have to understand paint is paint and if that much bumping going on it was simply the wrong choice for your family. Chip or dent there would have been damages no matter what. It isn't an insult but Im being frank as the painter is going to tell you he can stop you from bumping into painted surfaces.

That said isn't Cabinet Coat now owned by BM? Sanding the original surface would create a mechanical bond. i will assume he wiped down al the surfaces with TSP/or substitute and went with the theory it would dull the surface.

Cabinet Coat is a great finish but you do have to allow the paint to cure. I agree with the 30 days but you have to stop hitting the surfaces regardless. Any chips can be touched up. People today are used to seeing theses cheap offshore products made of mdf and sprayed having zero surface defects as it isn't real wood. Unfortunately real wood expands, contracts, grain swells, etc, etc.

The problem without using a tinted primer is illustrated here. The top coat chips and the exposed area is the original finish vs a primer close in color which would make the chip a lot less visible.

Give it a month and stop beating it up. Let him touch it up. It is wood trim it is going to happen. If it was peeling I would say replace everything but a chip from an impact? Not a paint mfg that is going to back that one up. Good luck and work with the painter.

wannabath, I don't know what he used as the "liquid sander" on the cabinets and doors, but I do know he didn't sand in any way (liquid or otherwise) on the trim. I do believe he wiped down/cleaned those though.

Also, some of the chips are from bumps. Others are completely unknown causes, which has us more concerned than the "dings."

It does make me feel better though if we can expect any paint, any any way it was prepped, to still cause chips when bumped into...

ya know, i bump baseboards and trim (I painted all myself using primer/Advance) all of the time with things, I don't have one chip. I suppose if I wielded a hammer at it or something it would, but it shouldn't chip because one of the kids bumps it with their toys. not to that extent.

I don't think liquid sander is as good as a complete cleaning, sanding and priming. it would be nice if it was.

TSP does not create a bond. It's a CLEANER. Using TSP or TSP substitute is the first step. Surely he did do that I would hope. But sanding should have been the next step. Sand, wipe down with a deglosser, and then prime, with a good primer. Liquid sander (deglosser) does not do any kind of "sanding", all it does is soften the surface temporarily, to help paint adhere. It is no substitute for sanding, certainly not on varnished wood that is being painted. I did all my trim myself, and have had no issues with chipping at ALL.

Don't even think about moving! The painter advertises 100% satisfaction guaranteed and so he will fix it for you. And once it is fixed....if you guys are truly rough on painted surfaces, this is what you do. You get a jar that seals really well and you pour the leftover trim paint into it (make sure it's mixed well). Store it in a climate controlled location. Whenever you think your trim needs a touch up, you take out the jar, mix the paint up in it, make sure the trim is clean, sand it a little bit to get rid of the chipped edge. Then take a small paint brush and do the touch up. It's very easy and paint is actually very forgiving. I cannot stand chipped paint so I have my little jar ready and waiting just in case.

Chess, totally agree w/your statement.

where's our friend Tony? he'd have a field day w/this post. "I told you so's" all over the place! But once again, not properly prepped is the villain here. Deglosser is a lazy substitute. and not a good one. It's better suited for something that gets no handling or use.

I totally agree this is a prep problem and cannot believe a pro painter wouldn't sand already finished wood prior to painting. I painted the doors and trim (plus new preprimed baseboards) in our second floor bedrooms and baths white last summer using BM Advance and it truly is a great product. It was golden oak everywhere so I sanded and did two coats of primer with light sanding between (as recommended by a pro blog I had read) and then two coats of BM Advance. We have 3 kids under 5 and have been in our home for almost a year now and we do not have chipping like you have described. There is a chip on a door where a baby gate constantly bangs into it and a scratch mark on a door from my dog when he was unhappy about being shut in a room when we had company over. That is it. Mystery chips should not be appearing and I feel just sick for you that you spent so much to have it done right and have this to contend with.

Thank you champcamp, we do too. I just hope he can find a way to make it right as this isn't going to be acceptable to live with. My husband and I just tried lightly running our fingernail down a piece of trim and lightly tapping on it and this is the result. It's absolutely not adhering, there's no question. My husband is going to call the painter tomorrow and tell him that we are not satisfied, are not comfortable waiting a month and need him to make this right. It's just devastating.

yes. no way you should be doing that. This is not normal. What paint did he use for all of the trim? what was on the trim prior? I'm guessing he used no primer on these either?

if the painter was smart, he'd just buy new trim, install and paint. all of this needs to be sanded smooth, primed and painted. a lot more work and time.

Beth H, its cabinet coat everywhere. And he used the first coat as a primer, left it for 24 hours then finished with subsequent coats...

cabinet coat for trim? good lord. why? I can't imagine the cost is cheaper. or maybe it is. I don't know. I'm telling you he cheated out. he used cabinet coat because he knew he wouldn't have to prime! Big mistake. you and your hub need to have a very detailed convo w/him. 10K was supposed to be for prepping and priming. Anyone could have come in and just painted everything for half that price. Way too much money for what you got in return. Tell him you want a refund or he strips the cabinet coat off of everything and redoes it to your specs.

what was on all of the trim/molding in your house before he got there?

If the painter was smart...he wouldn't have this problem! I just don't understand how a painter could spend so much time and effort painting something without doing a test to make sure the paint was adhering as expected. He certainly could have done a test section before he did the other interior painting and let it sit a few days to make sure there wouldn't be problems.

At this point, you might as well just wait to see if the paint does cure. I'm not optimistic but there's no need to rush into starting over with new trim. Even if he does prove to be a standup guy and take care of this issue without fuss, he may be rushed and not in a good frame of mind doing the recoat. Certainly, give him the heads up that the problem exists and is way past the expectations for uncured paint.

So sorry to hear you are having this problem. With a little one in the picture and another one expected soon, you have plenty of things to do without dealing with this issue.

Beth H, I'm not sure what was on our trim to be honest. We purchase the house two years ago. Cabinets are maple and the trim definitely had something shiny on it so assuming some sort of poly. Here's a before pic, you can see the shine.

And thanks, Linda. I agree that we don't want to rush into a re-do, but we do want to let him know ASAP that we think this is a huge problem and won't be fixed by a touch up Day in a month. I really want to have a plan in place even if it will take months to have him come back and re-do it all around his other work. I also think we should insist that he rest and re-do one of the rooms before doing it all, all over again to make sure it's even going to work this time... and with a little one and being pregnant I've been an emotional wreck over this since he "finished" on Friday. That's why husband is calling tomorrow, I know I will break down in tears! We were so relieved to be done with this 5 week project, I don't know how we'd get through another who knows how many weeks to fix but it's the long term investment in our house that's important so it's worth trying to find a solution...

Also, this is what the cabinet coat website says about the product so I guess I can see why he thought he could skip sanding and priming. Maybe he will have a warranty claim with Benjamin Moore, who knows... that would be for him to figure out though. We just need the quality and durability that we discussed and right now, as unfortunate as it is, we don't have that. http://www.insl-x.com/product-detail/inslx-products/cabinet-coat-enamel

This may not be a comfort but I had much the same experience..starting out with the "professional" painter rejecting my choice of Advance paint.. while also insisting that water base paint is a better choice....you are lucky your painter is trying to remedy your problem and I hope a solution is found ...so that you can share the solution...I am on my own with no help from the painter...tho' my problem is not as drastic...would love to hear if you find a solution...please keep us all posted

At this point I'm really really trying to be hopeful that he will remedy the situation. He's downplayed the problem to date though and his proposed solution is a touch up Day in a month. We shall see what he says tomorrow when we tell him that's not acceptable. Honestly, I only see redoing it, replacing it or refunding us all or a large portion of the payment as a solution... I believe he's a stand up guy though and didn't do this intentionally, so am choosing to assume positive intent and hope we can find a resolution. Happy to share when/if we do! Thank you all though for validating our concerns that this is not normal, should not be happening, and due to the cost is worth fighting. I really appreciate all of the input!

Awful! This was completely done wrong. That needed to be sanded and primed prior to painting. Anyone claiming to be a professional and charging professional rates should know that. Offering a "touch up day" is laughable. All that paint needs to be removed, the proper pre work done, and everything repainted. That's really the only solution and ultimately, that is what you paid for. I wouldn't accept anything else.

I think you are wise to look at redoing one room at a time. You have had your house torn apart for quite a while and you need the time to regroup. Let us know the outcome of your hubby's conversation with the painter

Thanks, Linda! Will do!

I would tread lightly when dealing with the painter..diplomacy always gets the least unsettling results..for both you and the painter both...clearly explaining what you are unhappy with ...non-confrontationally..graciously allowing him to find the solution...will save a lot of agony...from the process...legal steps or negotiations are always a final option..

It seems you have the right approach...my remarks are more to the possible effect of some of the comments ...good luck

Yes, thank you ritasj. Our plan is to be gracious, continue to assume positive intent, and work with him towards and amicable solution for all.

mjlei, it's unfortunate that a pro would actually believe that nonsense off the website. A pro, using a paint that he has never used, would never do that I don't beleive. I agree with the above - he needs to yank off the trim, and put up new trim that has been properly painted.

mjlei, where in Minnesota are you located? "He also didn't caulk inside edges of frames due to shifting in house here in Minnesota during winter and summer."

That's complete nonsense! We are rehabbing an older home (in Minnesota), using most of the original trim, and painting it white. I buy caulking by the case! Every seam - horizontal and vertical in every window and door frame has been caulked. There are maybe 3 or 4 spots after each winter that need repair, but that's no reason NOT to do it in the first place. Yes, houses move.

Are you willing to give the name of the company?

I'm in the south metro. I'd rather not post company name until we reach a resolution. He was concerned about caulk popping which is why he didn't caulk as much as we would have wanted.

One thought I just had (I moved to the South Metro from California 5 years ago and moved into a different house last summer) was the first house we moved into had super heavily shellacked oak doors and trim pieces. A neighbor told me I was so "lucky" the sellers had "blonded it out" by replacing the original darker oak. Ugh. However the doors honestly looked like they had been candy coated in a shiny top coat and it took forever to sand them enough for painting white (and at one point I got lazy and tried a deglosser on a closet door instead of sanding and that door took so many coats of paint it was ridiculous). The baseboards had such a heavy coat of shellac on top you could see drip marks on the back when I removed them for painting. If your wood also had that much of a top coat it would cause the paint to peel up so easily without being prepped properly.

champcamp, my knotty pine cabinets definitely had varnish drip marks. I never noticed them before I started prepping, but boy, sanding really shows it up. I suspect that is one reason that many builders prefer to just stain the wood, rather than paint it. It's far more forgiving, and a helluva lot less work. You can even be a bit sloppy with it. I'm so glad my cabinets are done!

I get it about not being thrilled about stripping the varnish or shellac completely off to bare wood, but to not make the effort to sand the shiny surface off to rough up the wood is just plain wrong. Nothing will stick to a shiny surface.

Absolutely, jerzeegirl. I took Beth's advice above and posted on the DIY forum where professional painters weigh-in and this response I thought was perfect: Sounds like your painter was a little too confident in the bonding capabilities of the product.

I am not in the camp that insists an oil or shellac based primer must be used to ensure adhesion in cases such as yours. There are plenty of water borne products on the market today capable of doing the job provided proper preparatory steps are taken.

The Cabinet Coat is typical for this type of product in that it calls for scuff sanding to create a profile that the material can bond to. From the data sheet;

"All glossy surface areas should be lightly sanded to effectively dull any existing sheen and create a more suitable surface for painting."

They also go on to make this extra specification concerning glossy surfaces;

"Glossy Surfaces – Although Cabinet Coat is formulated to be applied to hard to coat surfaces without the need for sanding, it is recommended that proper surface preparation still be completed to enhance adhesion properties. Surfaces such as Melamine Laminate, Formica, ceramic tile and glossy painted surfaces should be properly deglossed."

Source:
http://www2.benjaminmoore.com/Downlo...multidatasheet[0].data_sheet_file_en_US


Using a liquid sander/de-glosser is not the same thing as physically profiling the surface as required in the specs.

mjlei, I feel really bad that you're having so many issues! This was a huge, expensive project! But this guy is either lazy or doesn't have a clue what he's doing (or both). Properly applied caulk doesn't "pop".

I have done hundred's of feet of caulk - every inch of our crown, base, and window & door casings. If there is a spot where the void doesn't get completely filled, it will eventually "shrink" down. And it's pretty easy to fix. I am NOT a professional painter!

I just think that this is another red flag concerning his qualifications as a painter.

Yea, Mary Elizabeth, I was kind of afraid of that... There are lots of places where I wanted him to caulk as I think it looks like a smoother finish but he didn't want to do it... My husband said he would go around and try and fill them but now we are going to wait and see what this resolution will be on the woodwork first...

Obviously, I don't know the whole story here. But if you paid him $14K for 5 weeks of work, that's almost $3K per week. Just because he took that long, doesn't mean he did it right. You should not be having ANY issues, except maybe a couple things he might have missed.

He will NOT be able to fix this, or he would have done it right to begin with. Hiring someone to undo his mess and do it right might cost you double. Take LOTS of pictures, document everything, keep any and all emails (you do have his promises in writing, correct?).

I think he totally misrepresented himself. If all else fails, Minnesota small claims court takes claims up to $15K.

And maybe a some subtle hints of posting his company name here, and leaving poor reviews on HomeAdviser, etc., will speed up a resolution for you.

The fingernail peeling off paint is a different story then a chip from an impact. You have a serious adhesion problem. Primers are skipped today as newer paints promise one coat technology but experience shows that just not to be true.

There is NO ONE COAT paint end of story.

Cabinet Coat I am almost positive is now part of BM and sold through their dealer network as it can be tint their colors. Problem here is using it for trim. It also looks like they just used the base white color.

TSP/substitute does sell itself again as being an adhesion promoter as it dulls the surfaces. A simple 3M Pad run across all the surfaces would have created a mechanical bond. Primers are also a bond coat. They create a better bond then top coats to a substrate.

You have huge issue here as recoating will only make it worse. Will it finally dry and adhere? I doubt it but it will get harder and adhere better with time but how much is debatable. Only way to fix is to strip off and prime/top coat.

All the Advanced users pick up a can of Behr alkalid enamel and at almost 1/2 the cost I guarantee you will be impressed.

Thanks, wannabath. We actually did attempt to tint the cabinet coat so it's not the standard white color. Agreed on the not creating a mechanical bond and truly it seems like just rough sanding would have helped this enough to make it livable. It's truly so sad.

Mary Elizabeth, we have the satisfaction guarantee from his website, but not in any sort of contract. We didn't do a signed contract, just got the estimate from him (which doesn't detail out his prep process) and then agreed to the estimated costs and to go ahead with the work. We also discussed the quality that we could expect (paint would only be damaged/chip if something hit the surface hard enough to damage the wood, which would in turn damage the paint), but I don't have that in writing. We've trusted him and he's trusted us (he was almost 3 weeks into the job before we even made a partial payment).

We also can't afford to pay someone else to do this, unless we can re-coup some of the costs here. We already over-extended ourselves financially on these and a few other home improvement projects just to try and get everything done before baby gets here and prioritized timing over cost. So we really need to reach an amicable solution.

I also hope we can stay out of small claims court but good to know the limitations. I have been documenting everything though.

If you give him the complete benefit of the doubt, in that, he made a huge mistake "assuming" the prep needed for the Cabinet Coat, and he really cares, he would never expect to get paid for this kind of a job!

If he is a true professional, he will OFFER to redo everything to your satisfaction.

But the excuses he has given you ("you need to stop bumping into things" & "caulk will pop out") do not speak well of his "expertise".

Mary Elizabeth, I certainly here you. I get the sense right now that he thinks it's normal and honestly believes that more curing time will fix this. Maybe he's in denial, who knows. He also doesn't yet know about our fingernail scrapping last night as that's when I think it really solidified the gravity of the situation for us.

I've never heard of anyone, certainly not anyone that has any cabinet/trim painting experience, using TSP/substitute as a adhesion booster. It's a heavy duty detergent. It removes grease, which would of course prevent bonding, but I'd never use it instead of sanding OR deglossing. I realize that the product label may CLAIM deglossing properties, but the same company that makes TSP, also makes a deglosser, so that should be a clue. Just a little research provides lots of info on this.

http://www.doityourself.com/forum/painting-staining-all-interior-exterior-surfaces/284289-liquid-deglosser-vs-tsp.html#b

it can also prevent adhesion if it's not completely rinsed off the surface. I use it to clean all the grease/grime off first, then sand. once i'm at wood, I use naphtha to wipe down any residue.

I study this site (posting for professionals only), and have learned A LOT!

Here is a link to 4 pages of posts using the "Cabinet Coat" as the search term:

http://www.painttalk.com/search.php?searchid=7045362

Maybe you will find some helpful information to bolster your case.

I have only read about half of this, but I will tell you; I have painted white trim and doors in my house with 5 kids. We have lived here for 4 years and I don't have that kind of dings and definitely no chips. Don't except that one child and two adults are that hard on surfaces; that is rubbish!

Beth H., Only TSP needs to be rinsed off. Liquid TSP (TSP substitute) needs no rinsing at all. I prefer it for that reason.

Did you ever find a resolution to your paint problem? We are having the same problem now..