Yes it does need the liquid - 1 full cup as I recall - to be safely canned. Otherwise it is too dense for safe heat penetration processing. However you can sub bottled lemon or bottled lime juice for the vinegar (same amount) and some prefer that flavor. But no citric acid can't be directly subbed for vinegar. There are no tested exchange tables for that.

Salsa to be safely canned needs to be somewhat sloshy in the jars, freely moving in liquid. You can pour off any excess liquid after opening the jar.

OK?

Dave

Thanks Dave,

I was hoping you would answer. I had read previous comments, mostly from you, regarding not changing the thickness of the salsa. I had purchased some citric acid for canning tomatoes and I was thinking about using some instead of the cider vinegar/lime juice combination I had previously used in making Annie's salsa. I had read somewhere else about making a 5% solution of citric acid by adding 2 tbsp of citric acid granules to a pint of water which would yield about 2 cups of 6% solution. So if 2 cups of vinegar was required for a particular size batch of salsa, then it should be safe using 2 cups of the citric acid solution. Right?

George

And here is the link to the website that I was reading...

citric acid

In theory, yes and I generally don't have any issues with the info on "Healthy Canning" website.

The problem that it has not been lab tested nor recommended by the USDA so it would be one of those at-our-own-risk things. It's "iffy" and as you may know I'm not comfortable with "iffy" changes especially when there is little to gain, especially with salsas as they ride the safety edge to begin with. To me, lime and salsa go hand-in-hand. Salsa and citric acid just don't feel right. ;-)

Plus as the article notes, citric acid comes in various forms and granular sizes so it would measure different (like different salts do) and could result in a very different concentrations depending on the form used.

It's your choice of course but too many unknown variables for my personal comfort. Annie usually stops by daily so perhaps she will have some input to offer.

Dave

It's late, but I'm finally here. I did read the link and like Dave, don't usually have any issue with the information on that particular website. However, without being able to test the resulting liquid to be certain of the acidity level, I'd be uncomfortable.

As Dave says, salsa is already on the edge as safety goes. It's something that is used from the jar, not heated. Heating gives that extra layer of safety that salsa does not have as a "straight from the jar" product. Add the low acid vegetables like onions and peppers, and you have strike two. Possible density issues would be the third strike for me, I'm afraid.

I tried to pressure can it to take the vinegar out and found that it didn't taste right to me without it, so I put it back in partially for the flavor. As taste is subjective, not objective, your tastes will certainly vary.

So, bottom line? If you are confident that you can raise the acidity level to that equal or above vinegar, in theory it should be safe. No one can guarantee that, of course, as the recipe wasn't tested that way, and only you can determine your comfort level in making that change. If you are confident that you can measure the specific type of citric acid properly and prepare an appropriately acidic liquid, that would make me more comfortable. However, as I said, only you can decide your comfort level.

I tend to be a bit rebellious and take more risks than some here, after having fully informed myself of the chances and the risk level. Salsa is something I don't play with much, though, for the reasons stated above.

Good luck with your salsa, no matter what you decide...

Happy Canning!

Annie

I use citric acid but then again I omit the tomato sauce and paste in the recipe which adds density to the product.

"I use citric acid but then again I omit the tomato sauce and paste in the recipe which adds density to the product."

Wow that statement is open to lots of interpretation. Do you mean in addition to the vinegar called for in the recipe or do you mean instead of the vinegar? If you mean you are eliminating all the vinegar from the recipe and only adding some citric acid powder then that could be extremely risky given all the low acid ingredients.

How much citric acid? How much liquid? You are also leaving out 1 of the less-density sources (the sauce) and 2 of the sources of acidity - the sauce and paste. Do you pressure can it?

Please clarify.

Dave

Annie,

Thank you for commenting, as well as Dave. I hope I didn't open up a can of worms regarding any substitutions to your highly respected recipe. I think I should have titled the thread, "Could citric acid be substituted for vinegar in a canning recipe?''. And more than likely, without further testing, it probably shouldn't be substituted in your salsa or other safe canning recipes.

But I still would like to find out if an equal amount of citric acid solution has the same acidity as vinegar or lemon juice. What would you or Dave think about using ph strips as well as a ph meter to determine this? Or would you feel that other than taste, there is a reason for using one over the other?

George

No, no can of worms and it is an important question. Especially since some folks are apparently doing it anyway.

If I had a really good trustworthy pH meter and could replicate the needed pH using a citric acid solution then for my personal use I could be comfortable with it safety-wise. But I don't have one and I don't know how that pH would hold up under shelf storage since pH rises over time anyway.

Besides taste? That's the crucial factor. But besides that the extra dilution from the water and the effect of that much water on pH.

If a 1 cup solution of citric acid could be made to match the pH of the 1 cup of vinegar then I suspect (don't know) that it would require a fair amount of citric acid to the point of affecting flavor. Problem is most water is pH of 7+ so to bring it down to the 2.4 of vinegar is going to require far more than the usual 1/4 to 1/2 tsp I think.

Bottom line for me is that I just don't see any advantage in using it in salsa (in canning tomatoes, sure) vs. either the vinegar or the bottled juice. When there is no advantage I can see then I figure why not stick with what is well proven to work and be safe rather than experiment?

On the other hand I know some folks think nothing of throwing whatever they want into salsa and canning it. The personal family recipes for salsa come up in the canning classes we teach all the time. And when you point out the risks to them they always fall back on the "well no one has died yet" defense. I tell them learn the right way first. Then if they are still willing to take that much risk it is their choice. But their jars had better have warning labels on them.

Dave

I do have some Ph strips and I use them. (Thanks, KatieC!) But, like Dave, I suspect that bringing that much water to the proper acidity level might affect flavor and I don't know how consistent the levels would stay in storage.

If I could get an absolute answer on the Ph level, the consistency of that level during storage and if it didn't affect flavor, then I'd probably be comfortable with the safety level of the resulting product, but I still couldn't guarantee it.

Good thing I like the flavor of apple cider vinegar in that salsa, isn't it? (grin)

Annie

Curious What scientific method of density measurement do they perform when they conduct these tests for product safety? A hydrometer to measure specific gravity? Dave I used 1.2 g of citric acid per pint. BTW the PH of 5% acetic acid is 3.02 not 2.4.

One thing I don't understand is using straight tomato juice more dense than the combination of the vinegar juice sauce and paste.. Personally I don't think there is really a statistically significant variance.

To add the process time I used is 40 min. The same number as recommended for tomato juice at my elevation.

Dave I think you are right 1/2 tsp of citric acid is an appropriate amount to use if you are using paste tomatoes and you are shooting for a pH close to 4.1 and a margin for error of safety.

1/4 tsp would extrapolate to a 4.6 pH and that is cutting it very close.

"Dave I think you are right 1/2 tsp of citric acid is an appropriate amount to use if you are using paste tomatoes and you are shooting for a pH close to 4.1 and a margin for error of safety. 1/4 tsp would extrapolate to a 4.6 pH and that is cutting it very close."

Just to clarify,

I was referring to canning plain tomatoes, not salsa. Salsa is a totally different situation. The guideline recommendation for canning plain tomatoes (regardless of type) is 1/4 tsp per pint and 1/2 tsp per quart.

One cannot extrapolate pH safety based on the acidifier only. It also has to include the pH of the food being canned. In plain tomatoes which already have an approx. pH of 4.6 the amount of added citric acid stipulated in the guidelines brings the overall pH down to 4.2.

That is not the case with salsa as the salsa contents have much higher pH content to begin with so it would take a great deal more citric acid to reduce the pH to a safe level. Your 1.2 g of citric acid may be sufficient or it may not. We have no way of knowing for sure and no way of knowing if it remains stable over time as it has never been lab tested.

USDA density studies (published on their website) does not rely on hydrometer measurements but on multiple thermal probes to track cold-pockets. The probes are all inserted during processing to establish time-required correlations for ALL probes (especially the center core) to reach the required temperature for a sufficient period of time to kill the bacteria or neutralize any toxins. The thicker the product the longer the time required of course for the core to reach that temp.

Same for pH studies - multiple probes inserted during storage to monitor the changes in pH.

"One thing I don't understand is using straight tomato juice more dense than the combination of the vinegar juice sauce and paste.. Personally I don't think there is really a statistically significant variance."

Not clear exactly what you are asking but if I understand that comment then there is a significant difference. First because tomato juice is already acidic on its own, salsa is not. And second, heat moves faster through liquid than through solids and juice is primarily liquid, salsa is not.

"To add the process time I used is 40 min. The same number as recommended for tomato juice at my elevation."

Extrapolating from one set of instructions to another in canning is never recommended. Especially so when specific different instructions are already available for the product in question.

I assume you mean 40 min. BWB processing? Again, heat penetration through liquid is much faster than through solids or thick mixes so you have no way of knowing for sure if 40 min. is long enough for a thick mixture much less a low acid vegetable mixture. If you were pressure canning for 40 min. that would be fine but not BWB processing.

Dave