Suzyq - exactly why you never pay in full up front. I aim for 1/3 @ sign, 1/3 @ start, final 1/3 on approval for most projects. If I can get 1/4, 1/4, 1/2, even better. Most reputable contractors have no problem.

What! It is so weird how these so called "Pro's" are defending this bodged up job! If you stand back far enough you won't be able to see the worst mistakes!! Sorry this is just ridiculous.

I believe we are the only professional, dedicated tile contractor who weighed in here. Glad the OP is getting a remedial effort from her contractor. That job does not meet professional standards. And if consumers would consistently expect a professional outcome, there would be fewer low quality contractors which would result in prices leveling across the board (regional differences accounted for). It would also likely influence more people to go into the trades as professionalism, wages, esteem, etc. would reach the appropriate level for the work performed. But I digress.

Great response, Dragonfly!

Meghann, I feel your pain. Though I am an architect, I have approved, accepted mistakes, errors, or less than perfect execution when they don't fall into the must-have category, esp. when the owner doesn't care. But there are times, I reject the work and they do it over, but rarely with veins bulging. Industry standard or spec doesn't always settle a dispute. It's a dance, and it should give both partners joy, though occasionally, you do have to step on someone's toe and that should be a sad day for all stakeholders, never a happy occasion for anyone, though it appears that some of us delight in a fight. There are people who insist, "I don't like it, & I don't care what standard of care or industry standard is, do it over!" One only hope when they themselves screw up, then, it's not, "Well, let's be reasonable here." People do ride the moral high ground until it's them in the mud. Then it's not pretty.

Construction isn't like buying a car or a cake, it gets complicated with so many players. Here is the thing, for future reference, if you are troubled by the workmanship, you should always feel free, not ridiculous, to point that out to the workman who may well take care of it right off the bat ("So sorry, I wasn't myself after the call came in"). But if you don't get satisfaction, then you take it up with the party who has a fiduciary duty to you, on account of the contract. Ultimately, it comes down to business, payment for service.

But there IS a relational side to it. Reading your question, I can just imagine what a gracious person you must be. But keep in mind, in raising an objection, though primarily worried about whether you can live with their tile work, you are also insisting on a bar of vocational excellence, and determining whether he gets an unqualified recommendation from you, "Not perfect in every way but the most honest & reasonable, thus the best contractor ever!" In other words, you are holding them to a level of craftsmanship, professionalism that would in the long run benefit them and by extension everyone else. A most excellent test I use on myself is always, "If I were on the receiving end of my own criticism or objection, what would I do?" And never let the concern that "the fix may be worse" prevent you from discussing it with the pro or get another pro or two to weigh in. Sometimes in construction, the remedy may redeem the visual aesthetics but create more problems, so your worry is well justified.

What lively exchange your predicament stimulated! I long for the day, when pro's fix things and redo work that owners find no objection to only because "I expect nothing less than the very best from everyone, myself included." I have the fortune of meetng a few folks like that, but far too few.

Hold on here, wmsimons85…what do you mean by “all these so called pros are defending”….have you read the all the comments?

I find your post careless, at best. You do have a chance to edit and choose your wording more carefully.

Yes I think the grout is very uneven and messy

"I long for the day, when pro's fix things and redo work that owners find no objection to only because "I expect nothing less than the very best from everyone, myself included."

Yep. I do too.

You could get cultured marble from Mr. Marble that comes in one piece without the grouts for around $800 that would solve the grout issue. Grout is problematic in the long term due to cleaning issues.

Let`s be nice.l The Poster is getting it resolved. So all is well in Reno land.

Well I hope it's getting resolved the way I want it. They resolved most of the grout issue...chipping it out and re-grouting. It wasn't a huge area and I'm happy about that aspect. My husband put his foot down and they removed the square that was installed completely broken. They left it as is in the picture below and said they'd be back next week. Now I'm really confused why they wouldn't have just finished this today and then been back to re-seal next week. This was supposed to be a three week Reno but we are on week seven +. Anyone have a legitimate clue or professional opinion why you would leave at noon and not just finish??? I am not trying to be harsh I'm genuinely confused.

I have seen this where they want it to firm up to keep it from sinking before they grout it out.

Suzy thank you! I'm not liking to complain and since I wasn't home just trying to understand the process.

Just wondering how is that to stand on in the shower. Glad you are getting resolution.

Looks awful. This is unacceptable.
Would not settle for it.

Brickwood, I'm very interested in these guidelines/standards. Is there a place I can find an official doc? Thanks.

Angel I'm not sure if I'm clear on what you are asking? How it is to stand on? It feels like normal tile.

I think she meant about the grout being so uneven and messy, it looks like you might be able to even feel that on your feet.

I think Angel thinks this a shower floor, not a bathroom floor.

suzy I did - for some unknown reason - I assumed it was a shower floor, not the entire bathroom floor - ok - I got it now - but still have the same question as Chess said, it might be uneven and one could feel it underfoot.

NOT ridiculous at all. You have to live there and will bother every time you look at that spot. I'm just glad the guy is going to fix it. They will receive a much better comment about their business than if you were to leave it as it was. If I was to buy your home and I saw that problem area, I would want to redo that area, therefore my bid would be less knowing I would need to replace it or if I planned to do a guy job. Good for you for saying something.

*gut

Tom, residential construction and remodeling guidelines 5th Edition (which I believe is the current version) can be purchased through nahb.org for around $60 - $80.

It is the shower floor. They did some re grout touch ups to the area and this was a cube that was ridiculously raised above the others, so I asked him to adjust it. Since the grout was newly wet there, he just put those spacers in there to hold it until the grout dries and when he comes back next week, he will fill in the space around it and one other small cube. And then he will seal the entire shower floor. I guess we were a bit puzzled as to why he didn't fill in the grout right then and there. It was either because he had pack away all the grout/materials or maybe he was being a jerk. But either way, we need to wait a few more days for all this to happen. Sooooo, when I finally get to USE the shower, it will be EIGHT!!!!! weeks from start to finish. I hate to blast them on social media because they did a good job elsewhere after we pointed out dozens of corrections, but the GC had a bit of a tude. And for someone who really screwed up the entire job, he should be the last person with a tude.

Thanks Brickwood. I actually did find it a short while ago. I was surprised at how lax a couple of standars were, i.e. it is acceptable to use broken/chipped tile as long as it's not visible from a distance of 3 feet I believe. I guess I understand why our GC was so happy to mention these standards all the time. I think I know why my GC is happy with mediocrity and nothing more as has been demonstrated on many occasions. When I was in high school, I think 68 was a passing grade, and therefore standard to move along. So my GC must have been a D student and was fine with it.

Angel and Suzy it is the shower floor. The actual bathroom floor is a much larger tile which we had no issues with. Below are pictures showing both. The floor from a feel perspective is fine...I think. It's a little rough but we wanted something with a lot of grout for traction purposes anyway. That being said I haven't stood in it for more than maybe a minute. Oh boy now you've got me thinking....

Well it looks like it was worth waiting for. Your bathroom is lovely.

Angel this is exactly why I started this discussion. From afar the shower tile never really looked bad. This is a before from far away. Towel is there because I've been able to use the tub...just not the shower...lol. Because we asked them to fix the grout that up close was driving me crazy we have to wait till next week to use the shower. It was actually the hole in the grout and the cracking that concerned me not necessarily even from an aesthetic perspective though that was irksome. I was afraid the water would get under the marble and cause it to turn orange down the road. That's why we are happy they have/are fixing it.

Grout needs to be dry before they seal it. Sealer needs to cure before you can use the shower.

Suzy yes we know about the grout and the sealer. Hence why we can't use the shower until sometime next week. They are coming back to finish the grouting around the tile in the picture above from last night. Then they are coming again to do the re-seal. So yeah....it will be 8 weeks start to finish before we get to actually use that shower.

You're almost there. Your bathroom is really lovely. I love your choices. Enjoy!

As consumers we can always ask for, define and communicate the level of performance we want for any product or service we purchase - whether that is a vehicle, an entertainment system, a doctor, an attorney, or a remodel project. We just then have to be willing to pay at a commensurate level for what we want.

Every business in every industry starts somewhere in developing pricing. In the absence of communication otherwise, the default is generally the standard. I guess one could start by pricing the very highest of the high end, but that would be out of reach for most consumers' budgets and then they are offended. There has to be somewhere to start the discussion of "this is what you are buying for the money you wish to spend". This should be an open discussion between the parties before any contracts are signed - there is no place for assumptions. Consumers also need to spend time understanding what they are signing and agreeing to.

I don't think most professionals in construction (or any other industry) want to perform at a mediocre level, however, every consumer does not look alike nor do they want the same thing. Everyone does not have the same financial means or they wish to divert their financial recourses elsewhere. There has to be flexibility to serve consumers across the continuum. Sometimes the budget cannot support hiring the best person in a certain field and the quality of a second/third tier sub will not be the same as a first tier sub. Sometimes the budget won't allow for a sub to spend three days getting something done - the budget dictates that he/she can only get paid for two days. This is reality.

As consumers we don't seem to have problems understanding the concept of good, better, best. We get it in everyday life and we can draw the direct correlation between quality and cost. (My Ford is not a Tesla - I get it.) For some reason, this level of understanding does not transfer into home construction/improvement. People don't seem to grasp that the over the top, wonderful photos with incredible quality as seen on Houzz/Pinterest are not created on the budget that most of us live with. The result being a belief that everyone should get the same result regardless of the budget they set or what they contracted for. ("Here's what mine looks like - yours should look at least this good" even if they paid twice what someone else paid.) Everyone deserves to receive what they pay for - and only the parties to the transaction know the relevant details and all the discussions.

It is good that your contractor is taking care of the issue. Kudos to him. Maybe he deserves an A.

I absolutely LOVE your shower. It will be worth the wait! Good choices!

I don't understand why he didn't set the little piece within the grout. it's enough to hold it. I've done this basketweave myself and those little pieces often come off the mesh during install or worse, when you're grouting. (that's prob why that one was a little high). however, they're easy enough to just stick back in and carefully grout over it. he's coming back to what? glue in the little piece? and smooth the grout over it or just stick it straight in and hope it fits within the grout that's there? you could actually do that yourself.

(and you have two of these posts going doing you? I know I commented on the other one)

Beth H I do believe you did post on my previous post...for whatever reason this thread kept going while the other did not. I was using my iPhone to post these that first night and the app told me the first wouldn't post so I redid it and ended up the two posts. Of course!

The picture you are commenting on is recent and a tile they removed and replaced after the fact. It was the tile the was only half a tile...completely broken in two. They were fixing the grout in this area so we asked them to remove the tile. There is some grout under this tile so I think they wanted the new tile to set before they put the new grout around it. Would there have been a better way to do this?

you mean thinset? they reset it w/thinset (that's the mortar underneath the tile). I don't know why they didn't just set the little square at that time. I mean, he took the time and energy to space it all out, why not just set it? weird. I've had those come out on me while I was grouting and managed to set back into place, carefully grouting around it. once it dries, it holds the square piece just fine.

Beth I honestly have no idea. I was at work when this occurred so this is what I'm looking at until he comes back next week. But it seems like your telling me this is a little odd. Part of me feels like he was annoyed with us asking them to re-grout and so well yeah they are fixing it but we don't have a shower for another week.

yeah, i'm sure he has his reason. did he already re-grout that one section that was messed up or is he coming back for that? you never said what grout was used (brand and type) and what type of sealer is he using?

He did re-grout so it's just that one square left at this point. I have two un-opened bottles of sealer under my sink so I'm not sure which one he is using. I have a feeling it's the first sealer below. Ecause it wasn't there until yesterday.

Never heard of that grout.

Tile Lab is junk. And it's a Gloss??? no. no. no. oh jesus, just no. (Tile lab is the cheapest of the cheap, just so you know. that one you have is $20. The ones below, are $50+) And you certainly do NOT want a gloss topcoat on top of the marble.

However, don't let him use those. You need a sealer that is suitable for polished marble. all of your tiles are polished, yes? Honed marble takes a different sealer (and cleaner).

this is what my marble refinisher used on my honed marble shower floor. this stuff is amazing (and is about 75 bucks for this container)

but for your marble floors, you can use this (make sure it specified polished marble)

or this one. I used this on on my HONED carrara.

And your cleaner (i dilute it w/water and put in a spray bottle). this is a pH neutral cleaner.

do not use those other OTC supposed stone cleaners. they will etch your marble. and be very careful not to drip anything on your floor (say like toilet cleaners or hairspray, etc) they will etch your polished marble.

for deep cleaning, my guy gave me this one. it's heavy alkaline for grease and such. I think I'll get the other one instead. although for soap scum in the shower, this one does work. Remember, you can't use any other cleanser in your shower.

why don't you read through this post regarding sealing carrara. this is from the pros over at JohnBridge Tile forum. Tons of info for you (you grouted w/a cement grout. the people in the post are talking about sealing over the epoxy grout so you can disregard that part. just pay attention to the types of sealers and allowing vapor barriers to breathe and such)

"But all stones need to "breath". This is why the penetrating sealers are designed to allow some VAPOR transmission. Entrapped water can take weeks, even months to pass. And entrapped water in white Carrara can also permanently stain"

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=112013&highlight=Marble+picture+framing

and this one for more carrara sealing fun facts

http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117913&highlight=marble+floors

Gotcha. Yes our marble is polished not honed. We bought the tile from the Tile Shop while not Home Depot it is a national chain. The 2nd sealer is what we bought at the direction of the Tile Shop. We've been scratching our heads as to why it's never been used. The marble slabs we have were from a local marble shop and installed and sealed separately directly by them. to be honest when I saw the container of gloss I was confused. I read the label and while it said natural stone it made no mention of marble just travertine and slate. I'm beginning to think my contractor has never dealt with marble. I have to assume what the manufacturer sold us to begin with is correct and what they are bringing in is to try to combat my husbands complaint if excessive grout haze without actually addressing the grout haze. If nothing else we are not going to let them use the gloss. The other product when we bought it we were told to re-seal with once a year. If you could check if your guys on that product it would be appreciated. Just as an FYI one of your products does show a 20 year guarantee...I'm sure they mean if you re-seal every year.

yes I did catch that. I'm sure it doesn't last 20 years!

the sealer normally does not go on until all moisture has evaporated after install. usually a week or so. From what the guys over at JB are debating, is sealer being used on marble in the shower. They're arguing against breathing issues against stains. It's new to me, so it was an interesting read.

I have carrara on the floor in my bathroom (black marble is on the shower floor and the black basketweave is in the water closet area) an I sealed each one of my tiles prior to install. They're 4x16 done in a herringbone. Each one took 3-4 coats of the impregnating sealer. I did this because I used an acrylic based grout and clean up from that type is a PIA. I even showed my guys the video and told them that you have to grout in small portions and wipe up immediately. He didn't do it. took me 3 hours to clean off the excess off my flooring using acetone and goo gone!

I'll ask my guy tomorrow about that other sealer. Did you get your grout haze removed?

It's interesting how much debate goes on over marble and sealing vs not. My issue is I used white Carrara and it will show rust spots if not sealed properly. We'll potentially. Lol

The grout haze... ahhh that was a great debate in my house. My husband was pushing for our tile guys to get rid of it. I let him handle it for the most part and was kind of surprised that they were willing to address it since my mom took care of it in her bathroom. They did a pretty good job but since it had sat so long i got down and wiped with a damp rag and used my poor poor finger nails for two hours on Wednesday. Of course they re-grouted yesterday so I'm sure it will take more effort once they are done done on their end.

Marble mosaic used in an everyday shower floor are going to be a problem. With all the porcelain alternatives it makes zero sense and I hope you know all the downfalls.

Problem with sheet mounted marble mosaics is the grout lines are larger then 1/8 which dictates sanded grout but you have to use unsanded with soft marble tiles. Another reason why offshore products should be avoided as they are sold on looks not function.

Installer did not pack the grout in hard enough to compensating for this. A lot of installers will do a double pass for this very reason. They could of also used an epoxy or modified which has a sanded look but supposedly the granules are rounded and don't scratch the marble.

As far as seller goes if they are polished they don't accept the sealer. The polishing closes the pores and the sealer doesn't soak in. You can put as much as you want and leave it all day it will only accept what it accepts. Actually with most products all you are doing by adding coats is reactivating the previous coat an removing it. sealers don't build they soak and you remove the excess.

Marble floor will always look spotty and depending on slope can create all sorts of issues in a shower pan. I can't believe they didn't make you sign a waiver as once that pan is used you will then see all the wonderful qualities of marble used in a wet area. Floor in my own bath is gloss marble mosaics and it barely accepted any seal at all. I have had zero issues with the floor or the grout. Then again it is not used on the shower floor.

Grout release and sealer are two different products. Sealing a floor before grouting can cause adhesion issues and shrinking in grout lines.

Mapei Flexcolor would have been a good choice for the floor especially with those grout lines.

the biggest reason the to seal or not to seal marble debate exists (from my experience) is that polished marbles just aren't very porous. Honed marble (even the same exact stone) is more porous as the surface tension of the stone is much lower (the stone is opened up through the abrasives in the honing. Also the NTCA (National Tile Contractors Association) has an article about about marble on shower pans holding more moisture WHEN sealed...even though the sealers are breathable.

Their original grout job looks absolutely terrible. Even the "good area" looks inconsistent & like they grouted over debris.

The best maintenance tip is just using liquid soap instead of bar soap.

Anjelina,,,why are you hacking this thread with your handrail issue?? seriously?

Meghann,,,rust spots have nothing to do w/sealing or not sealing. That comes from iron deposits in the stone itself. it will rust from within. some say sealing the marble will trap water from underneath and lead to the rusting. Some think if you don't seal then water will sit on the top, causing rusting. The only reason you would want to seal the white marble in a shower area is for staining. sealing buys you time to rinse off or clean off a stain. If you dye your hair, you certainly don't want hair dye coming into contact with unsealed white marble!

Usually the lower quality marble will have iron deposits that cause rust. True carrara is only mined in Carrara, Italy. Other knock-offs come from Turkey and China. China Marble is frequently passed off as carrara. It tends to look like blurry gray mixed with white and will have the iron deposits. The fake stuff will also have yellowing or tan/brown spots. Tile Shop has had issues w/the fake stuff.

And yes, Mapei FlexColor CQ would have been the best grout for you. it's an acrylic grout, stain proof, and comes pre-mixed. I used it on mine.

you may want to read this article. it talks about sealing

http://www.countertopspecialty.com/sealing-marble-shower-tile-grout.html

Isn't the sealer actually for the grout in a case like this?

suzy,,if it's a cement based grout, it will also act as a sealer for stain protection.

Brickwood, I just saw your long post late yesterday. We spent a lot of many and only expected for the work to be done correctly and on time with minimal incident.

I can go ahead and give you many specifics as to what our contractor did/did not do, but not sure you'd be interested. There are things in this world where common decency and common sense should prevail. We gave our project manager the benefit of the doubt at the beginning and actually trusted him and he lost all that trust within a couple of days. I can give you a laundry list of his actions and the actions of 'his crew', which incidentally had to be fired from our job after 3 weeks(should have only taken 1 week). The owner of the general contracting company saw their work and had to let them go, and should have let the project manager go as well. Not sure the owner knows that his PM is costing him business and reputation.

BTW, I looked at the nahb doc and found at least 7 items that were NOT met per those standards, And there were several other things that may not have been listed, but would be assumed by all 'reasonable' consumers. And the project manager was not forthcoming(basically lied) on many details and was trying to make us out as the bad guys.

So yes, our contractor is taking care of the this issue, and all the other issues, which are blatantly not up to standards. And all these issues we had to bring to his attention mind you. He was happy to walk away when he was ready. As far as I'm concerned, his actions are thievery and gives contractors in general a bad name.

Absolutely ridiculous when we have the supervise supposedly professionals doing a job. It seems to happen all the time. A friend of mine is just in the restoration process after having a flood in her home because an outside worker turned on the water and didn't turn it off. We just were over there yesterday and one of the restoration workers had left another tap on. Fortunately it only flooded the outside.