I was off by only a factor of 10 :) Must have blocked out the pain. It cost us $5100 over the included single-sided direct vent insert and $1600 for the stone. From a framing perspective there's not much difference except that the framer will have to come back a second time to add blocking for the mantel. No difference in foundation as the bump-out to support it would have been there for the single-sided. I'm guessing the two main differences are the increase in the cost of the unit (and I'm interested to hear what you find out from the distributor), and also that your builder has never installed one before so added a fudge factor. I know we were the first for our builder (Main Street Homes) and I'm sure that factored into it.

Yes, Yes, and Yes!!!! We would be his first as well! Thanks for the information - I checked out the pictures of your house, it looks great - love the colors in the kitchen.

Don't let the builder tell you that the install is difficult. Actually easier than a vented... No vent stack to run. Push it through the hole that the framers left, weather seal the edges and plumb the gas line.

So excited. We went w the majestic and its being installed tomorrow! I'll post some pictures when it's done!

This is what can happen when your fireplace gets too hot underneath.(it was a Vermont Castings Majestic) Yes, it set our house on fire on New Year's Day. (Happy New Year to us--NOT) Here's my blog about it. https://medium.com/@dimplesgr8smile/new-years-fire-disaster-f2a5781ad8a4

My question is, we have to fill in this nasty hole with a new fireplace now. We are debating between the Heat&Glo Twilight 2 and the Lennox Montebello. Which has more of a zero clearance, and I guess I'd also like to ask, which one is safer.?(Duh)

@Karen, I am sorry to hear of your tragedy!

I can see what appears to be at least one obvious installation issue in the photo you posted, and I'm sure your insurance company will, too. I hope that you get this taken care of quickly.

I tried to go to your blog to see more about the situation, but the link doesn't seem to be working.

I recommend that you talk to a local fireplace expert to get help replacing your fireplace and so that you have professional installation help, which is the primary way to prevent accidents like these. You can find your local professionals here: http://nficertified.org/pages_consumers/consumers-1.cfm

Despite the persistent use of the phrase, there is no such thing as a "zero clearance" fireplace. All manufactured fireplaces must be installed with careful observance of the clearances specified in the installation manual.

All manufactured fireplaces are very safe when installed properly, including the ones you mentioned.

Again, I am so sorry for this terrible thing to happen to you.

Thank you Coastroad, and I have modified the link above so you can read the blog and see the pictures. Can you tell me the obvious thing you see? NO one else has pointed anything out. We have a fireplace owner coming tomorrow to tell us the best fireplace for the gaping hole. Either the Twilight 2 or the Lennox Montebello St. Do you favor one or the other? And thank you for the advice and link to the certified consumer pages. :)

Actually, I like the VC/Monessen/Majestic model better than either of the other two you mentioned, but I would understand if you have a bad taste in your mouth.

To be clear, I am only mentioning what APPEARS to be a problem in the photos. A real professional inspector/investigator should confirm what I am about to mention.

P.S. I also apologize for de-railing this discussion further, but it might prevent some problems for you or other folks in the future.

It appears that plywood was installed over the face of the fireplace, which is strictly forbidden in the manual.

This fireplace, like most flush hearth fireplaces (even gas), requires a non-combustible hearth extension. I don't see any evidence of the wood deck being protected.

It also appears that the opening was framed incorrectly at the top, and perhaps the framing standoffs (which are designed to keep framing way from the box) were removed. There shouldn't be a piece of wood sitting on top of the firebox.

Any of the issues mentioned above could have caused a fire, but I am not saying that any of them did. There may be other issues that I can't see, and probably are, if these things really are as they appear.

Coastroad Hearth & Patio, Thank you for your work on this post. It may prevent someone else from experiencing the NIGHTMARE we have experienced this year. Also, I will tell you the fire began UNDER this fireplace and burnt a main support beam UNDER it. We had 6 inches of stone work on the deck side (on the bottom) and the deck floor is lower than the floor in the house. But it also functioned fine for 7 years, and then caused this disaster only 5 days ago.

Karen, your situation is odd for sure. I'd be very interested in looking closely at how the heat underneath got so high (e.g., gas leak under the burner, fire caught in the burner air mixer, etc.), since that is an unusual spot to get hot, but that won't undo what happened. Nothing will undo the stress and inconvenience you have been caused, let alone the expense.

It is so good that you were home and caught it before the whole house went up in flames. And thank goodness no one was hurt.

Thank you so much for your kind words and time on this post. I believe the most important things I'd like everyone to learn from this is that fireplaces are not infallible, so make sure a certified tech installs them, not a plumber as in our case, and secondly, smoke alarms have expiration dates and if they are old, they no longer detect smoke. The fire burnt the propane line next to the unit and only God knows why we weren't blown to smithereens.

Coastroad Hearth & Patio, I am building a new house, and the fireplace installer said the framing was incorrect when he came to install the Heat 'N Glo Twilight II fireplace. He said the rough dimension from inside to outside (i.e, the depth) has been framed at 24 1/2" (it's 24" plus 1/2" sheathing on the outside). The installation manual says it should be 23". My builder thinks it's okay to simply move the fireplace 1 1/2" closer towards the outside, but the installer said it could cause a fire if the fireplace is not flush with the inside wall. The builder will have to re-build the outside wall, and I think he just doesn't want to do it. Of course, I don't want a fire! Can you give me any advice? Thanks.

This is a very common issue with see-through fireplaces, and even more so with an indoor/outdoor fireplace. The finished walls (excluding any non-combustible facing materials) must be flush with the faces of the fireplace, so the framing has to be shallow enough for the sheathing on both sides (drywall, cement board, plywood sheathing) to flush with the fireplace. The fireplace can not be recessed into combustible construction.

Your fireplace installer is correct.

There is a "trick" to avoid reframing the whole wall, without compromising safety.

You can flush up one side and change all of the adjacent framing on the recessed side to noncombustible materials. We had to do that here, when we replaced an incorrectly framed see-though with another nicer see-through. All of the framing on the recessed side is metal, with cement board sheathing.

Thank you for your help! Despite major push-back from my builder, I've asked them to re-frame the back wall because the installer agrees that is the best solution for my situation. I appreciate your quick response and suggestions!

I have a Twilight 2 that we are just framing in (new construction). Many of the pictures we have seen for this fireplace (Heat n' Glo brochure/ website) show rock or tile that goes over the "face" of the fireplace and only the screen/ window is visible. Is there a wire install kit to do this? Or is a non combustible board glued or screwed to the fireplace facing? My stone installer says no glue or mortar is going to hold cultured stone directly to the tin front.

Thanks.

Hi Sheryl. Actually, thinset mortar holds cultured stone pretty well to the metal, but a better way to do it is to overlay the part you want to cover with 1/4" tile backer board before installing the stone, tile, etc. You can screw the backer directly to the metal face or you can use high heat silicone to adhere the backer board to the sheetmetal. Do not overlap into the glass frame area or over any louvers.

Hi Coastroad, I have an old house with an indoor wood burning fireplace on an exterior wall shared with our patio. My chimney is very old so i don't know the condition of the chimney. Can I simply have the brick cut and framed, add a gas line to install the indoor/outdoor model fireplaces? or would it be more complicated? thank you for any advice!

Hi michoumonster - I can give you a definite "maybe" about changing your masonry fireplace to the gas see-through above. I can be pretty confident that it would be more complicated than you are imagining. The structural issues with trying to carry the brick over the new opening might be tricky, and you will have to do something to resize/repair each opening. If you would like for a little more educated answer, you can send some photos of your existing situation to my email: tom@coastroadonline.com

Thank Tom! Just sent you an email with pics! thank you so much for all of your kind advice!

We are building a new house in the Chicago area, where it tends to get rather chilly in the winter. My question to Yoda Coastroad is: have you come across any geographical areas that require sealing the outside side of indoor-outdoor fireplaces, thus preventing heat from flowing to the outdoor area? After an initial inquiry to my builder, he indicated that a see-through fireplace would not pass the energy code without being fully sealed on the outside wall. He is checking with his go-to fireplace rep to see if the Twilight II (or any of the others you mention above) would really need to be rendered non-functional to pass energy code. I'm hoping that he just wasn't familiar with this product and that we will still be able to permit the outside wall to emit heat. The engineer in me also is skeptical that, with an already sealed fireplace, any additional 'sealing' on the outside would really affect the heat emission at all. Can you comment on any energy code/inspection issues you've come across in colder-weather areas? Thanks

Thanks very much, Yodaroad. Helped us, you have. One follow-up (which will also probably depend largely on our inspector/local codes):

What if we were to install the see-through fireplace and only put the low-emissivity glazing on the inside of the two-way fireplace? We'd like the look of the fireplace for our family room, but the functional heat plus the look of the fireplace for the porch, so we don't have to install a secondary heat source to use the room in the winter. I wonder if applying such a glazing on the inside face (rather than outside) would be acceptable in most situations that are strict about the glazing issue you mentioned. Does an energy envelope have to be totally uninterrupted and contiguous, or can it jog to an inside facing wall of the house? Or, does it simply need such a low-emissivity barrier/glazing somewhere between the inside and outside to be sufficient?

Also, that solves the crisis of heat control and kid safety - we just use our regular HVAC system for the house heat with the look of the fireplace, and all the heat of the I/O see-through is used for the 3-4 season porch. Any thoughts? Sorry if this gets in the weeds, it's hard to find particular information about this small segment of the market.

Wow. I didn't expect technical questions of such specificity.

The glass on the fireplace cannot be changed without affecting the ANSI listing and performance of the fireplace. The high heat output of those fireplaces requires either tempered glass (for lower BTU units) or ceramic glass (for higher BTU units). The low-emissivity coating used on doors and windows is fairly delicate, so the coatings are protected by having the coated face turned inside on IG (double-pane) windows. I don't see it working on a fireplace.

On the units I am thinking of, the outer face actually has two layers of glass, and since there will be a roof over the porch side, low-E glass won't matter since it won't get hit with the sun, so maybe that will suffice for your building officials,

I don't think I was very clear about where the heat goes. You don't really have a choice.Typically, the heat goes to each side equally, but with the outer double glass, a little more will go inside than outside. While you are running the fireplace to make your porch comfortable, the inside of the house will get warmer and warmer. I suppose you could open a window to let some heat out, but that does not seem the most practical solution.

Having said all of that, this fireplace specifically says that the outside installation kit includes "thermal window": http://www.davincifireplace.com/WhatsNew.aspx . I think it might actually be an IG window.

The downside is that the DaVinci fireplace doesn't produce much usable heat. They have been promising a feature that will allow you to dump the heat wherever you want (which would be perfect for your situation), but it hasn't happened quite yet.

The other issue is that it is only available in modern configurations (linear, with glass media). But maybe that's what you are looking for . . .

If you think this might be worth pursuing, you can contact Shelby Rumens at DaVinci directly to find out the specific answers to all of your questions. Or you can e-mail me at yoda@coastroadonline.com .

Hi Coastroad

Thanks for all your information and advice. I had a lot of issues finding a gas inside/outside fireplace and finally found the twilight II. I noticed several years ago in this feed that you mentioned 2 other brands. I was wondering if you could recommended any others that are now on the market? I have found the Realflame Double Vision (which is also an open gas fire on the inside side), however it does not provide much heat. We'd like one that actually heats, as well as looking good.

Thanks for any advice you can provide. Cheers Penny

Hi Penny -

There are actually a number of indoor/outdoor gas fireplaces available now. The reason we tend to shy away from the the Twilight II is that the Twilight vents through the outside face, which prevents being able to close in the outdoor porch with windows in the future, which happens a lot here in the humid south. We prefer something with an independent vent up through the roof.

There are a lot more reasons why the Real Flame Double Vision won't work, but mostly because it is an Australian product, which won't be available in the USA (different codes and standards). Unless you are in Australia, I'd suggest looking elsewhere.

Rather than tell you ALL of the models that can be inside/outside, it would probably better for you to describe your application and we talk about what will work for you. You can email me at tom@coastroadonline.com to continue the discussion, if you like. As you mentioned, this is an old thread.

We are looking at getting the twilight II. You said the porch can't be closed in with windows but can it be screened in?

Correct. But since a large number of customers eventually install some type of stacking window at a later date, we discourage using the Twilight anytime the outside area is covered.

Doesn't the twilight 1 allow you to vent it somewhere so you could enclose the outside room?

Both models in the Twilight series vent through the outer face, and there is no other way to vent them.

However, there are a number of other direct vent indoor/outdoor models that do allow venting up, so the outer room could be enclosed later.

Hi, I am new to this post. I am also looking to buy and I/O fireplace and live in NH and have same concerns as above with our screen room. We will would like to put the storm windows in in the winter so venting would be an issue. What products do you recommend for this situation?

Well, Cheryl, you can read the whole thread or you can email me at tom@coastroadonline.com with the details on your project and I'll fill you in. ;-)

We have a twilight II. It looks nice but I will confirm the two major operational draw backs are it's almost 100% inefficient for indoor use other than ambiance only. All the heat is basically lost through the exterior side vents as mentioned by other posters. We also would like to enclose our porch but can't because there are no alternate outside venting options I'm aware of.

This has been a very educational thread! Coastroad, can you advise on whether it is possible to change out the glass media on a Twilight Modern for something that looks more like logs? I know some gas fireplaces have multiple glass options, but I can't figure out whether this one does or not. Thanks!

Jeremy, my guess is that you cannot change the media, but I will do a little research and let you know for sure.

Any idea what may cause the exterior glass on our Heat&Glo indoor/outdoor fireplace to randomly shatter with no force? We had the fireplace on Thanksgiving morning and I walked by it about 30 minutes later and noticed the glass was completely shattered on the outside -- and none of us had been outside or near the fireplace. Any thoughts on what could cause this? It's a covered patio with the fireplace set back 8-10' from the overhang. Any ideas would be appreciated!

As you can tell from the breakage pattern, the glass is tempered, so a weakness in the glass itself or a rapid temperature change can cause the panel to shatter. It's a rare occurrence - maybe one in thousand - but it can happen.

That doesn't happen on fireplaces outfitted with ceramic glass.

Thanks for the input!

@Jeremy, the Twilight Modern has a completely different burner, and they only approve glass media for it. Anything that someone might do aftermarket would change the safety listing for the product and void the warranty. They actually warn about explosion risk in the media placement part of the installation manual.

TLDR; no.

Thanks!

For those of you who have, or have been around, a Twilight II - does the glass get hot? We have little kids and are considering this style, but would be concerned if it's hot to the touch.

@acushin2, all fireplaces can get hot, and care should be exercised when there are any at-risk individuals present - small children, mentally disabled adults, etc.

That being said, all gas direct-vent fireplaces made in the USA since the beginning of 2015 include a safety barriers (either double glass or screens) to protect little ones from serious burns. The Twilight II -and every other direct vent fireplace - includes those safety screens/barriers.

There are also temporary barriers designed to keep small ones safe until they can be reasoned with (a small window between age 4 and eleven): Kidco Safety barriers

Question for those who have installed the indoor/outdoor fireplace as I too am considering this for my new build..... would you do it again?

I live in Wisconsin, I would love to have an indoor/ outdoor fireplace in my new Great Room addition with a deck. Do you think my climate is too cold ? If the fireplace is off , is it a place where the cold can penetrate in from outside ??

The outdoor face on an indoor/outdoor fireplace has a gasketed glass assembly that gives it similar properties to a standard double-glazed window, but the metal chassis would still tend to act as a thermal "short", conducting cold into the house. Probably not a great idea in Wisconsin. A back-to-back fireplace setup would be better.

I'm considering a twilight II or other double sided fireplace in a cold, northern climate between a deck area and a 3 season room (otherwise not heated). I am concerned about horizontal clearance (to eze breeze vinyl glazing) - I read 36" if vinyl siding - what about if bumped out? I am not concerned about wanting to enclose the outdoor space, but I am concerned about durability in an entirely unheated space with subzero temps in winter - are all of the indoor/outdoor units built to withstand "all outdoor" situations like this? Is there a single sided fireplace that would be a better option for the enclosed, but unheated porch?