Is it just you and your husband in the "design meeting"?

Can I have a dollar every time someone uses profanity while cleaning around the freestanding tub in the master bathroom?

What is the site like?

We have 1 1/4 acre that is about 350 wide in the front. We are designing the plans with a very reputable local designer. We plan to bid the plans out to multiple builders once complete, so we have not had a builder joining us in the meetings.

Aww, it seems a shame to take a big, beautiful lot like that, and....

Look, if you have a 350' wide frontage, why is your house plan not elongated in some way? Why have the kitchen dark and in the middle of the house? I would insist on my kitchen sink having a view, were I ever so fortunate as to build a house on an empty lot. I'd want my master bedroom farther away from....the breakfast nook...

Did you know that with big lots like yours, that generally architects design them in shapes like the capital letters I, H, L, so that you elongate the house, and create views out the windows BEST SUITED for the site. Good architects designing for folks on a budget eliminate those jigs and jogs on the outside, to save you money, and have you thought about what your roof will look like?

You are just going to throw away money, and get a worse result than if you hire a real architect. Whoever your designer is, doesn't seem to be qualified, based on this design. Can you read through the dozens and dozens of similar Q and A's on this forum, and save yourself heartache? You don't know what you are missing. And I wouldn't want you to be sorry.

An actual architect instead of a designer is going to save you a TON of money, not to mention give you a house that is considerably more liveable and will not have you cursing your new house and the designer every single day that you live in that house.

PS What sort of games are going to be played in the room which shares the wall with the master where Mom and Dad lay their tired heads? You don't have teenagers yet, do you lol ?

Elevations would be fun to see, but I think I know what it will look like. Lots of convoluted roof line and stacked dormers, etc.

I don't know that you are going to push and pull this plan to anything that you're going to love. I think the general concept needs to be explored and restated in much more basic terms and shapes before moving on.

Good Luck with your project!! Its a long process, fun and stressful!

It is the opinion of others that determined your designer's reputation, it is your opinion that determines their work status.

I like the current plan, but it is ONLY because I can make a lot of dollars.

This plan looks so much like a lot of packaged internet plans we see on here. I think your designer started with a canned plan and tried to tweak it to fit your needs, which is how you got the current long-hallway, rabbit warren result. As other have said, painful though it is, you’d be more likely to get what you want if you start over with an architect who can design a plan from scratch for your needs.

We designed this plan from scratch originally and watched as he drew it. This isn’t a stock plan but I think we have tried to tweak our ideas and thoughts on what we wanted into something that isn’t functional. I am looking for advise on how we can improve or rearrange this plan.

... rooms and stuck them together willy nilly ... lots of hallways ... rabbit warren house ...

I'm not quick to say "toss it all", but -- in this case -- that's what I'd do. Things I like in this plan:

- The master closet's connection to the laundry.

- Nice sized pantry near the garage entrance.

- If you're going to have a 3-car garage, this one doesn't look overwhelming from the front.

- If you're going to shove a toilet into a closet, this one is better sized than most, but it's still a dark closet.

Other than those few things, I literally don't see anything I'd want.

-Your dining room might as well be in another house. It's not easy to access from the kitchen at all

Yes, this is one of the things I noticed. With so many steps between the kitchen and the dining room, the dining room's never going to be used. This could be improved a bit by flipping the butler's pantry and the pantry ... but that's only a bandaid.

The dining room also appears to be about the same size as the nook. What's the point of having two same-sized eating areas?

-Jack and Jill bathrooms are never good IMO. There are always issues with someone forgetting to lock both doors. In fact, the whole kids closet/bath layout is wasting a lot of space if you're trying to get square footage down. Use a regular hall bath and give them normal sized closets.

I like J&Js, but this one takes up a lot of prime corner space ... yet the only window is above the tub/shower, where water is going to be an issue. This whole J&J will be dark and unwelcoming. Bedroom 3's vanity seems small.

-Your kitchen is going to be dark. The porch I assume is covered, which means minimal sunlight will be coming in from those windows.

Worse than that, all the main living spaces -- the great room, the kitchen and the breakfast nook -- are going to receive minimal light because of that "deep U shaped" porch.

We are not planning on eliminating the double island in the kitchen as I love to cook and wanted a large prep space. We will be putting a prep sink in that is not drawn on this plan. We are open to changing the layout and location of the kitchen to improve overall flow.

My husband and I both love to cook, so I understand your concept, but I maintain that no one actually wants a large kitchen ... a serious cook wants an efficient kitchen. Large does not equal better, and I agree that the double island thing just doesn't work.

My opinion on a highly efficient kitchen:

- Keep it in the ballpark of 10x10 - 12x12 range PAIRED WITH a large pantry for storage. In that size range, you can easily fit in all the standard appliances AND plenty of countertop prep space ... and at that size, you can afford to splurge on the nice cabinets /countertops you want ... and you can do it without things being so spread out that things are too far apart. The pantry provides superior storage in that you can see everything at a glance.

- Design in an "away space" cabinet run. That is, a space set apart from your main work area where you can store a bowl of fruit or a cake, the coffee pot, etc. ... and when you entertain, this is a perfect spot to set out dessert or drinks. If you don't plan a space for these things, they clutter up your main cooking area ... and that's what makes people think they need a "big kitchen", when they really need a better organized kitchen.

Any ideas on how to eliminate the long hallways?

Reduce the overall size of the house, or go with a multi-story house. With all this space, you have to have a way to reach these rooms.
We must be able to vent the dryer outside.

At this moment, that isn't happening. Your dryer is backing up to the garage.

There are quite a few issues with this home, including all the juts and bumps outs (which will significantly increase your costs).

Yes, these jigs-and-jogs are quite pronounced.

Can I have a dollar every time someone uses profanity while cleaning around the freestanding tub in the master bathroom?

I love the look of freestanding (or clawfoot) tubs, but they're not all that practical. In addition to the cleaning issue, they're a little uncomfortable to enter/leave because you're stepping over and down at the same time.We designed this plan from scratch originally and watched as he drew it ... I am looking for advise on how we can improve or rearrange this plan.

Which doesn't mean he did a good job of it /doesn't mean he wasn't copying and tweaking stock plans ... the above poster who mentioned capital-letter shaped houses was giving you good advice; at the heart of this plan, it's a square with lots of poke-outs, and squares produce dark middles. Advice.

Other things I note:
- The entrance is a bowling alley.

- Once furniture is placed, the inswing of the French doors may prevent you from reaching those doors easily. I'd go with gliders.

- I don't think you'll be able to move furniture the 90 degrees that'll be necessary to enter the master suite .. anyway, since it's so far from any entrance, I'd want an exterior door for fire safety, and furniture can come in that door. You can have windows on three sides of this master, making it the best lighted room in the house.

- You could do the same thing with windows in the game room.

- The bump-out closet in the guest room is inefficient /expensive to build ... and it prevents you from having nice natural light in this room. Really, no one wants a bedroom with one single window.

- Furniture placement in Bedroom 3 is going to be tricky ... three walls are "taken" by doors ... note, too, that once you have a bed in place, this door swing will be in the way ... doors aren't at their best opening in the middle of walls.

- You say you plan to put your TV next to the fireplace in the built-ins, but these don't seem to be very large built-ins. What size TV do you plan?

I should also add that we have already signed a contract and paid a deposit with this firm so switching isn’t an option. We are fully confident in his capabilities as we have studies many of his designs. I need help with general layout ideas so that I can bring new ideas to our meeting tomorrow for him to go off of. This design is a reflection of what we thought in our heads would work. Clearly it doesn’t.

Switching is always an option. It will cost some $$ of money to get out of the contract, but you'll save that much money in building costs when you don't build long empty hallways, giant massive roofs, and extra construction materials on the bump-outs. You can always get out. Did they even give you elevations?

I have a couple of thoughts in addition to what's already been mentioned.

-I like to keep an eye on my kids' screen time. That would be even more important to me if they were gamers. So I would want the game room to be closer to the rest of the house. And I wouldn't want it so near the guest room, but that's just because our overnight guests are families with very young children or Grammy, both of whom have sleep patterns that are very different from our family.

-if you're in any room other than the master bathroom and you want to get to the master toilet, you must travel to the ends of the earth (more or less) to get there.

-I would also recommend really thinking hard about the second island. A dining table in that spot could function just as well for secondary prep space when needed. It seems like the second island is a high priority for you though, so that being the case take the wash sink out of it and put it in the other island. Imagine having to drain an enormous pot of pasta... You can move the range toward the nook so the range and sink aren't back to back. That will free up the outer island for people who are gathering to chat and for serving buffet style meals.

-laundry rooms may typically be located next to the garage but that certainly isn't a necessity. Analyze your laundry needs and you may see there is a more logical spot for it. Especially since there is no access to it from the garage.

-you have enough land, your garage doesn't need to be right in the front, jutting beyond the main mass of the house. Tuck it back. Consider a side load style, either facing in to make an L shaped courtyard or out so the doors are hidden.

I agree that there is no reason to have an internal kitchen or a front facing garage when the lot is so wide. The designer's approach is a common one on the internet for 4 bedrooms on one floor on a narrower lot.

"a serious cook wants an efficient kitchen."

Could not agree more.

Well...you have lots of comments above to consider. I'll offer the following:

1. You simply have too many space-consuming, often conflicting ideas and requirements. If reduced floor area is truly a priority, you are going to have to compromise on some of your ideas. Creating separate "needs" and "wants" list is often a help to sort through many of these conflicting issues. A bubble diagram also often helps with adjacency explorations and planning, prior to physical design. You really need to get your thinking in order, before beginning to explore design concepts.

2. Whomever drew up these plans is simply listening to you and using a CAD system to do what you ask. They apparently are little critical help at all. The elaborate and confusing plans (with a bunch of spaces banged together) are simply what you asked for. See item 1 above.

3. For what this house is going to cost, have you considered using an experienced and talented architect, and allowing them to be an equal partner in your thinking, planning and design explorations? Chances are very good that this will not only result in a better design, but also save you time and money.

Good luck on your project.

I would review your contract with the current designer. Are you paying them hourly, flat rate, percentage of the build, or some other arrangement. Then look hard at the termination clause - just because you’ve signed a contract doesn’t mean you’re locked in with them. If it’s hourly based on time worked, I’m not sure it would cost you that much more to switch. If it’s another arrangement, look at what it costs if you terminate the contract.

Then do the best evaluation you can of your designers abilities. Is he/she “phoning it in” on this project, or do you think this design represents him/her working to the best of their abilities? If you think this doesn’t represent their best work, how do you think you could motivate them to put more effort into your design? If this is the best of their abilities I’d think even harder about finding someone new.

If you think they can do better, I’d go to the meeting and suggest scrapping this entire design and starting from scratch - real scratch, not tweak a canned plan scratch. (You can fall on your sword if needed to make it more palate able to the designer if you think it would help - we tried to micromanage too much, we didn’t let you create the best design, etc.) Look up information here on bubble diagrams and do one and make a list of needs and wants. Tell the designer you want a plan that takes advantage of your site, maximizes natural light, and minimizes unnecessary cost (so no just for the heck of it jigs and jogs, no huge and unwieldy roof, etc.). Suggest a house no more than two rooms deep in any spot, with as much as possible one room deep, and no forward facing garage. Ask that they maximize your southern exposure.

I know what you were looking for was tweaks to this design, but everything is so interrelated, there is no way to fix it through tweaks alone. Playing with the layout of boxes rather than looking at it as a whole is as much or more likely to make it worse rather than better. Someone would have to do a design largely from scratch for you.

Good luck!

It really is a shame that the designer has totally ignored your lot size and other lot information that could turn your new home into something special. I'm sorry to say that plan is not at all special. In fact, it looks like a canned plan on a small lot. Please reconsider using an architect so you get the best design for your unique location.

"If you're going to have a 3-car garage, this one doesn't look overwhelming from the front."

If we knew what it looked like from the front amybe, but I have a sneaking suspicion we know the answer already. Where are the elevations?

Sometimes you have to admit you made a mistake, cut your losses and start over. Most of us have done this with one thing or another. Breaking up with a designer isn't the worst kind of breakup, do it before you produce a "baby" together!

Whitney, take a look back through your elevations ideabook. NONE of your saved elevations has a front loading garage!

They are all very roof-heavy, so if you showed those to your designer that might be where he's headed in your designs; he wants to give you the kind of floorplan that results in jigs, jags, and an enormous roof.

This is what I was trying to express by L shaped courtyard:

I can't believe how nice some people have been on here to give you advice, especially Mrs. Pete. Lots of time spent studying the layout - all for free.

Maybe you should show your designer the site for free advice - Well maybe not.

Keep it in the ballpark of 10x10 - 12x12 range PAIRED WITH a large pantry for storage.

This is what we've done for our new house and I highly recommend it. I learned my lesson over the years from my parents' retirement house. After living in a small apartment for most of their lives, they had the chance to have the house and kitchen of their dreams, and between them and the architect they cooked up a plan for a large kitchen with a large island, plus an inefficient layout. Every time we visited (and one time we stayed for about six months, with our young kids), my husband and I were exhausted after every meal. It felt like we did nothing but run around the big island in the big kitchen.

In addition to this forum, I'd strongly recommend running your kitchen plan by the Kitchen forum -- more great, free advice to be had : ) .

We have 1 1/4 acre that is about 350 wide in the front. We are designing the plans with a very reputable local designer. We plan to bid the plans out to multiple builders once complete, so we have not had a builder joining us in the meetings.

Sorry he/she may be reputable, but obviously is lacking in design talent.

You need to be working with an architect for such a large house. and not someone who plays on a CAD program. This "reputable" draftsman is someone who plays with CAD programs.

A well designed home is not 4-5 rooms deep. A well designed house is at most 1-2 rooms deep and will try to allow for natural light (windows) on at least 2 walls in all major rooms, including bedrooms. (Both of your versions will be quite dark)

A well designed house will take into account passive solar heating and cooling and how best to get heating/cooling costs down while keeping you warm in winter and cool in summer.

A well designed house would not have a massive roof like this one would be along with all the problems such a roof might cause.

An architect will come out and walk your property with you, sit down and discuss how you'd like to "feel" when you come home and how you'd like to "feel" in your house as well as what your needs and wants are. They won't willy-nilly stick boxes together like a Tetris game. Instead they'll show you not only the interior but how the exterior will look and how it relates to your site.

This is just bad on so many levels. Both versions. Cut your losses now and find an architect who is knowledgeable about residential design.

We designed this plan from scratch originally and watched as he drew it. This isn’t a stock plan but I think we have tried to tweak our ideas and thoughts on what we wanted into something that isn’t functional. I am looking for advise on how we can improve or rearrange this plan.

You can't. It's not functional and like I said you can't just stick boxes together.

The difference is a designer/draftsman (which this person is) gives you what you think you want. An architect will give you what you didn't know you wanted.

Or as Steve Jobs said, "A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."

I should also add that we have already signed a contract and paid a deposit with this firm so switching isn’t an option.

Sorry but you absolutely can. Cut your losses now and find a competent person of design talent. This isn't it.

"fully confident in his capabilities"

Then why are you asking for help?? You should be asking about how to get out of the contract.

If you concluded your relationship with this person and hired an architect who designed you a house with 8 to 10 corners and a simple, efficient roof line, you might very well come out ahead cost-wise when the design was actually built.

This.

The house plan as currently designed will be expensive. It's one thing to pay a lot if you're getting a lot -- in terms of a large, well-planned house; a large, well-planned house with lots of marvelous features and high-end finishes. But the house plan as currently designed will be very expensive for what will almost likely be a very disappointing house. And there's a good chance that it will cost so much that you'll have to scrimp at the end for the final items, like landscaping, furnishings, appliances, etc. I'm all for paying a bunch of money as long as you get fair value for your $$. But continuing this project with the same draftsperson is throwing good money after bad.

We had to change builders and due to the price increase of the new builder, we had to adjust our floor plan. We had a 3/2.5/2 at about 2,400 sq feet. We cut the jack and jill bathroom between the guest bedrooms and changed the 1/2 bath into the hallway bath and shrunk a couple of other areas. We saved on plumbing and square footage and ended up with a 3/2/2 at 2,200 sq feet.

I get your desire for a double island because my husband greatly enjoys cooking which is why our kitchen has so much storage and upgraded appliances. Did you consider just taking those 2 islands planned and making a huge rectangular/square island? That would give you great prep space. Or doing a long island like mine? We had planned for 4 foot wide by 14 feet long but ended up in 3 feet wide and 10 feet long as when the redesign happened. I wish we could have kept the 4 foot wide, but the 10 feet long is fine!

We eat at the island with counter height stools for almost every meal. It's so convenient to prep and cook your food right there and then bring it on down to the eating area. We do have a formal eating space in the back by the window, but we don't eat there very often. If you want two indoor eating areas, consider an island as as a casual eating area and then turn your casual eating area into a formal dining area so it will connect directly to your kitchen. Then you can cut that formal dining space out in the front of the house that seems so far away from the kitchen.

No saving that way expensive boondoggle. That’s throwing good money after bad. It’s all bad and tweaks won’t help.

You need to start over with someone who actually has talent. And who offers you significantly more pushback instead of being unable to have a proper discernment and heirarchy worked out to be able to tell you “no”. This is a series of expensive and impractical “i-wants” strung together poorly. Like a kid who wants nothing but dessert and no vegetables. And the stupid babysitter who gives it to him won’t be around when he urps it back up on the carpet because the reality of all dessert is sickening to your stomach.

That roof is gonna fail at even the most primary objective to keep you dry. It’ll be a nightmare with leaks as a high potential.

Fire your draftsman tomorrow. Or set fire to more money. It won’t get better.

Thank you to everyone for your honest feedback and advice. Our game plan is to start over from scratch taking into account many of these helpful observations. I'll be back with an updated version!

Whitney your attitude is refreshing! (Some people get very defensive.)

Like homechef, I noticed the corners too, and counted them. (yep, 48.) Many of them are unnecessary. I like the guidance you got from everyone above.

Chicagoans, Thanks for confirming up my count. I counted twice and came up with 48. I just knew I was going to get it wrong.

Whitney S, Thanks for not taking things too personally. It can be rough in here, but most of us want to be helpful and get you a great home.

I also just counted the corners, I got 47 which seemed odd, but you never know

A perfectly nice house can have as few as four.

An L plan, 6; and a courtyard plan 8.

I would give this. . .designer a goal. Tell him you want 3700 square feet with 8 corners or less.

i can name that tune in 3 notes.... oops, showing my age. : )

i think 8 corners is perfect. i love a U shaped courtyard house.

I also counted 48. Whitney, best of luck. Hopefully you can get what works with this guy but I'm thinking you would be better finding an architect.

I agree with ninigret, I think a U shape could work great! Check out the floor plan below. You could move the laundry nearer the master, make the 'formal lounge' into a dining room with a butlers pantry connection to the kitchen, thus making room for your double island kitchen, the 'theater' could easily be a study (even made smaller by enlarging the guest bedroom). I like the way the 'activity' room could be your game room connecting to the kids bedrooms. This plan has too many bedrooms, but you get the idea.

Where are you located? Will you have a basement? If so, do you have the ability to do a walkout/egress windows? It seems that something like a flex room/game room could be moved to a finished basement space, and would save a ton of money.

I would at least consider that instead of two islands, maybe do an L-shaped island, to make more of a peninsula kitchen while keeping a lot of counter space. I think that walking around the island while cooking is going to get old.

This is a tortured design!!! The architect should start with a simple bubble diagram of how you want things and how things best flow; imagining people walking through the house for different purposes. What do guests first see when they walk in? What do the kids do when they come in from playing? How does a guest get around? What if a guest want to go to bed early? How do you celebrate a holiday with a crowd. I feel these basics were never part of the discussion. Rather it seems that the deck was thrown in the air and this is how it landed.

Glad to hear you are starting over Whitney. Just be patient and you will get a great house. Good Luck!

Whitney, I can't wait to see your house design. I just know it will be great because you have a positive attitude and willingness to see it through.

We started back from scratch and addressed many of these concerns and we are off to a much better start! Our next meeting is a few weeks away when hopefully we will have a complete drawing to begin our next round of critiques and edits.

Whitney we too went with a designer. We went through at least six drafts before we got the layout we wanted. It’s a process. I’m glad you are starting over and getting what you want but I also don’t want you to be discouraged because I think it is a back and forth to get to good design.

Edited my typo to make Mark's comment irrelevant ;)

" . . . I think it is a hack and forth to get to good design."

Boy there's some truth in that, especially if the designer isn't talented.

Oh, that's what you meant.

Keep in mind that when people speak of corners there is another consideration not mentioned above...the roof. Every time you hop in or out on an exterior wall, the roof has to change in order to cover it. That means a lot of custom framing and expense. Clearly, your designer has no concept of the construction ramifications of each layout decision.

Let's assume that plan above uses a regular gable roof style and the left wing has a main ridge running front to back, with a peak in the front and back. The left wall will require 6 (!) changes in roofline (dormers, etc.)! That is a huge added expense for no benefit (and every elevation change creates a valley that is a potential leak point). If you simplified the roof you could build a larger house for the same price.

I've given up trying to figure out how many roof elevation changes that layout would need.

Edited my typo to make Mark's comment irrelevant ;)

Damn. And I had it flagged as a candidate for this years "100quotes" list!

This is simply one of the gazillion examples we see here, almost daily, of a CAD operator designing sequentially, one floor at a time, for the owners approval, before moving on to the next floor, designing it sequentially, one floor at a time, for the owners approval. When all the floor plans are "approved", then, and only then, does the CAD operator throw a roof on it, getting owner's approval. Final stage is to design elevations, get the owner's approval, and quit.

Said differently, designing sequentially, one architectural element at a time, simply results in terrible (and expensive) designs. It makes it easy for the CAD designer, but the owner gets the very worst sort of design possible.

Of course, this approach to design disaster is made worse because the CAD designer simply drafts whatever the owners say they want. And very few owners know anything about design or how it takes place.

So...the owners walk into the CAD designer studio with a mish-mash of ideas about their "forever house" And the CAD designer bangs them all together inside some walls. See...you asked for X and Y...and here they are...!

Be careful what you ask for...

I am so glad you are starting over! I hope with a new architect! It looks like all this person is doing is tacking rooms onto each other to meet your criteria. It is really a McMansion. And the number of bump out and corners is insane. And there is no reason to have a front loading garage with this much property. I’m looking forward to seeing your new plan!

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