Redoing a kitchen - comparing bids

8 years ago

So I am the point where I am talking to kitchen designers. I live in a Honolulu high-end condo and my kitchen space is my kitchen space. No relocating pipes and walls here.

The. space is basic V shape. Each length is about 10-12 feet. At the base the width is about 8 feet and at the top it is 15 feet,

I have talked to two designers. First one, A is a well known local designer who also has its own construction team. B is a lower end designer. It designs kitchen, has a showroom, etc, but does no. construction itself. Rather it has a couple of outside contractors it refers people too on a regular basis. Designer A has been in the business 30 years and Designer B, 10 years. A is in her early 60's and B is in her late 30s.

I told both designers this kitchen was being designed for aging in place due to the health of myself and my wife. A got it immediately, and I had to explain it to B. While I think B semi-understands what we want, I have a slight fear she does not quite get it.

While I may be jumping ahead a bit, when A said she had her plans ready, she said she threw in all the bells and whistles for aging in place. For B, when we sat down, we had to go over in much more detail about aging in place and what we needed.

What do I mean by health? I am 65 and fused from T2 to my pelvis. I cannot bend. Something falls on the floor, it stays there until someone else picks it up. I can barely raise my upper arm to be parallel to the floor. My wife is 73 and has two minor strokes. Her balance is a little bit off and she cannot reach things in high shelves. So part of out plan is to raise the dishwasher, put in pull-down shelves, etc.

Both A and B were familiar with the building and my unit layout. A actually came out with an assistant and took measurements. B pulled up an identical unit one floor below me and worked off that unit's measurement. B will not come out to the unit until the contract is signed.

It should be noted that B provided us with an estimate for a contractor. B used the pricing for a very similar bid in another unit in our building. So for B, no contractor has actually seen the unit and made a bid.

There is nothing fancy in the designs: they are almost identical. Again it is a small kitchen and there is not much creativity you can do I the limited space when we want the dishwasher in a certain place, sink, in a certain place., etc

When we first started off, we wanted to do the kitchen and one bathroom. The kitchen was a compete replacement and the bathroom was the just the cabinets,

So I get the bids and compare them. B is for $40K and A for $55K. Cabinets for both bids are around $25K. A's bid does not include the bathroom. Neither includes appliances.

It is in the labor cost and other cost that the bids differ. A charges twice for demolition that B charges. A has a line item for "clean-up" and B does not. B has delivery to my loading dock, A to the unit.

In the end, A labor and other charges are twice what B estimates it should be.

Another major difference, is that while appliances and sinks, etc are not included in the price, A will work with the major distributors and get you the sink or appliance you wants (A prefers Miele) while B is much more limited. It is a Franke dealer and if you want another sink, you have to get it your self. You want a Bosch appliance, it will get it for you. Any other brand, get it yourself. A gives you a "pull allowance" while B as a selection on the wall that is included in your price. Anything else, full price is one you.

I know I should get a formal bid from a construction company before I proceed with B. But then B first wants me to sign a purchase contract for the cabinets before it drafts the formal specifications, etc. for the contractor. So if I go with B and the bids comes in $10-$15K higher, I am semi-stuck and back a A's level. A on the other hand is giving me a final price.

So here I am trying to figure out how to proceed. A is well regarded and providing me with a turn-key solution, although at a higher price. B appears to considerably cheaper, but I cannot absolutely fix the cost ahead of time.

My final goal is to avoid frustrations. In a story best left for another time, the last kitchen I redid had to be redone twice in a year.

I know $15K is a great deal of money and in all probability B's labor estimate is semi-accurate. But nevertheless, I am a loss on how to proceed and which designer to go with.

SO IF YOU WERE IN MY SHOES, WHAT CONSIDERATIONS WOULD YOU HAVE?

GO WITH A FOR A TURN-KEY PRICE? PROCEED WITH B FOR THE LOWER COST? GO WITH THE DESIGNER WHO. CLEARLY UNDERSTANDS OUR NEEDS AND WANTS?

ANY AND ALL COMMENTS WELCOMED.

LJK

Featured Answer

Helen

8 years ago

In your situation, I would go with A because I would have peace of mind that the remodel would be done well and with just the normal aggravation of any remodel whereas B has too many potential pitfalls.

I effectively chose the A option as I am sure that I am paying at least that amount for "peace of mind" in terms of not hiring the least expensive option. And although I hired the GC separately, the GC has worked with my designer on several other projects and so effectively this might as well be her personal GC.

Others have cited all the red flags meaning that it is likely that the cost differential will be less than $15,000 by the time the project is finished - and your aggravation level could cost you more on a per aggravation minute :-).

Knowing exactly what is needed to provide the functionality you want and need is absolutely critical. I am remodeling my condo currently and I have found that my designer - who is extremely knowledgable about Codes and functionality - to be a lifesaver. She is the one who can advise me on stuff like where placement of grab bars makes the most sense and whether they should be horizontal, diagonal or vertical for each placement. I am just pointing out a small item in terms of things she knows off the top of her head.

Sure my designer helps me with the "fun" stuff like realizing my design but it is her knowledge of the gritty behind the scenes stuff that is the most valuable. Whenever I bring up any kind of concern that I have picked up from this forum, it is something that she does as a matter of course - i.e. having tile laid out prior to being laid or wood flooring being laid out prior to being laid so that the patterns, lengths etc. are the most aesthetic. Again, a small point but again this gives me confidence that everything is being done in the best possible way by someone who really knows what they are doing because it would be impossible for me to ever have that level of knowledge - that is what I am paying her and also the GC for - and she is acting as my advocate with the GC.

While my designer would not provide me with actual plans (i.e. the kind submitted to the City for permits and to bid out to GC's) prior to payment, she certainly came out to visit me to get a sense of the unit etc.

And I am a bit unclear as to which one has experience in your condo or similar condos. This to me is absolutely critical. I live in a high rise condo and so there are some very real issues that the GC must work around. Costs are just going to be higher because you must bring everything in and out by elevator. You need to put down protective flooring on common areas (which is both a material and labor cost). You need to have a good working relationship with the onsite manager. At least where I live (Los Angeles) there are specific Codes and products that need to be used in multifamily residences - i.e. condos and the inspection process is somewhat different than a single family residence as well.

Obviously I don't know what your financial situation is - but for me $15,000 for receiving all the benefits of Designer A versus the unknown of Designer B (including whether it actually will come in $15,000 less) is not even close. As I wrote, for all intents and purposes, I chose Designer A for my own remodel and (kinehora LOL) I feel confident I made the right decision and any additional cost was well worth it.

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Comments (13)

Donald
8 years ago
Why on God’s green earth would you even consider going with B since she hasn’t even stepped foot inside your condo? In the immortal words of Heather Chandler, did you eat a tumor for breakfast?
PRO
JAN MOYER
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Aside from simply RE reading what you wrote,..............A is at the realistic number if quality is your goal. Working in a condo which will involve other residents being inconvenienced .......? My bet is A fully understands the process, and B will leave you to deal with the hacks you get in your space and the mess left there daily. That's just the beginning. ..........

I think you answered your own question. Short answer? D.U.H.
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PRO
Business_Name_Placeholder
8 years ago
Respectfully ask A is there anything we can adjust on the project to lower the costs some. Have an open discussion in person. You may find there's a few things not needed or you might decide to treat yourself to all of it.

A's experience is valuable & worth the extra costs. A has already showed more effort than B.

A sounds like the A+ solution.
User
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
B is making you be the GC and designer both, except for cabinets, and is washing their hands of the whole job responsibility. The GC on the job has to coordinate all of the purchases, deliveries, scheduling, quality control for the different trades and everything. You are completely nuts if you go that route. Especially in a condo.

The final numbers with B are likely to be higher than with A, and the experience far worse. A is the realistically priced one, who provides better communication, assumes whole job responsibility, and sees the big picture.

Why would you even consider B?

BTW, you are making the classic mistake of calling estimates bids. You do not have bids, you have estimates. You are not giving out the exact same specifications and design to everyone and then asking for a contractable amount. That would be a bid. You are using different criteria and services both ftom each to get a price estimate.

Estimates can be contractible amounts if the contractors and designers are good, but don’t expect these number to not change. B especially has way too many holes in the job that leave room for many more price increases. Which is why his job will end up being higher in the end.

Important for you to research your project.

http://www.remodeling.hw.net/cost-vs-value/2018/

https://nkba.org/info/why-hire-a-designer

http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/kitchen.design.rules.htm#.WvYPH_9OnYX

[https://www.houzz.com/discussions/10-tests-for-you-and-your-contractors-first-meeting-dsvw-vd~5332686?n=90[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/10-tests-for-you-and-your-contractors-first-meeting-dsvw-vd~5332686?n=90)

https://www.ceramictilefoundation.org/homeowners-guide-to-hiring-qualified-tile-installer

http://starcraftcustombuilders.com/sources.faucets2.htm

https://www.curbed.com/2018/3/7/17087588/home-renovation-unnecessary-mcmansion-hell-wagner
Gill
8 years ago
My SIL just redid her basement (dug out basement to make it deeper and then finished it). Big job, three estimates, established very-well reviewed person had higher estimate than the person she went with who seemed good, offered less flexibility of finishes, less turnkey but she could live with it. Except turned out to be a nightmare. The cleaning that wasn't included in the cheaper contract meant that concrete dust was being tracked through the rest of the house, the site was a mess every day, construction subcontractors weren't up to snuff and because they weren't the main person's own people it was a protracted hassle getting things corrected etc etc. Many things that had been "flexible" or to be determined in the cost ended up being higher so she paid what she would have paid to the more expensive person but had no end of hassle added in because she went with the cheaper one. Go with A!
PRO
Business_Name_Placeholder
8 years ago
You get what you pay for.

Cheaper can be more costly to fix.

Hire the more experienced.

Hire the one who will manage & service the whole project from start to finish.

Do it right the 1st time.
friedajune
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
I agree with others that, given what you've described, "A" is the better choice. Also, you have described your and your wife's physical limitations. IMHO, that has to be the FIRST and TOP consideration. Which of these two designers will relieve you of more burden, more stress, and be more understanding of your situation. That would be "A" from what you described. The rest of your uncertainties about "A" can be discussed with her and worked out. The key to a good KD, and a good outcome, is good communication. I cannot emphasize that enough. Communicate carefully and candidly with A the concerns you feel, and see what she says.

Just regarding appliances and fixtures like sink and faucet - I bought those myself. I found I could get better prices by shopping carefully than I could through the supposed "contractor's discount". And I didn't have any constraints on what I wanted to purchase and to mix and match. It sounds like you are retired, so you will have the time needed to shop online and go to showrooms to pick out appliances, sink and faucet. However, if you find that daunting, which is understandable (I treat appliances as a hobby, but not everyone is so geeky!), then leave it to the KD "A" to choose. If you do decide to purchase these yourself, be very cognizant that their dimensions will affect the KD's design, so again, communication with her on these purchases will be key.
simplechoices
8 years ago
B will end in a nightmare. Lack of knowledge always ends up costing more.
sherri1058
8 years ago
Yikes! I would not consider B. You need someone that absolutely understands both your needs and the job. It seems that A has that, and while B's estimates are substantially less than A's, one of the problems that I see is B's estimates are based on what she thinks a 3rd party will charge? No thanks. Aside from the fact that B's price is sure to increase ( eg. B has delivery to my loading dock, A to the unit.) it seems to me that your stress level will be much higher as well. Go with A.
aprilneverends
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
A, of course. You already like her much more, and for a very good reason.

believe me as you remodel-you want to remodel with a person whom you like for a very good reason.

the rest has been said already

15 K is a lot but when stressed you'll pay more than that 15 K difference, and not only in money. And going with B is a recipe for huge amount of stress already. Just from reading your post.
chocolatebunny123
8 years ago
I feel your pain as we are getting estimates for having our basement finished. We've had 6 contractors come out, ranging from handymen/family owned businesses to larger basement companies that are LLCs. Trying to compare their estimates hasn't been fun. We look at the final number of one and get excited, then read the fine print and realize it doesn't include x, y or z, and once we add those in, their price is actually higher than the others.

Rapport is also important to us. We realize we are not going to be friends with these people, but you want to work with someone you have a good feeling about. Not that it will prevent any issues (which I know there will be some) but if we have a good relationship going in, I think that will help make things go smoother.

I would eliminate B right off the bat just because he/she didn't even take the time to look at my own space. That's ridiculous. It sounds like A took the time to really know the limitations that you and your wife need and the only way to do that is to see your space.

To me, the cost difference is moot for the peace of mind.
cpartist
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
Sure my designer helps me with the "fun" stuff like realizing my design but it is her knowledge of the gritty behind the scenes stuff that is the most valuable.

This is one of the most important points. Having someone who's been to your place, knows your needs, and is able to coordinate everything that needs to be done. That doesn't sound like the 30 something who hasn't even been to see your condo or hasn't actually taken any real measurements.

It sounds like A.

And as others have pointed out, the things that B has left out means that by the time you're finished, if you choose B, is that you'll most likely wind up paying MORE FOR B.

My saga is here online in a very long thread.

I went with a supposed custom builder for my house build. After we started, we found out that he kept his profit margin lower than most other builders in my area so that people "weren't scared to build with him". Because of that, his foreman was responsible for 8 houses at a time, when the average for a truly custom builder is 2 at a time. Problem is, it showed in some major issues.

Our foreman who left this builder a few months ago because he felt his integrity was being lost, asked me one day if right from the start would I have been willing to pay $50k more to know we'd be in within 1 year versus the 18 months? Would we have paid more to have a house without the issues we're now having?

My answer was it would have been totally worth it not to have the anxiety we had and not to lose a HUGE tax break that will now cost us MORE, because we weren't in within a year. That tax break will cost us more than that. Plus if we felt the higher price was too high at the time, we could have cut back a bit by doing different appliances or plumbing fixtures, etc.

We didn't have a choice of builder since it was in a small development. I tell you this story because you do have a choice. Please choose wisely. Wouldn't that $15k be worth the peace of mind to have things done on time and done right the first time?

Please don't be penny wise and pound foolish. Hire the best.

Redoing a kitchen - comparing bids

Helen

Comments (13)

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