Sophie, I’m not saying you’re not right about needed to ditch it. I’m not too concerned about being able to eat at it or the dip creating an issue with prep. In terms of getting a working design going...Sigh.

Move the sink between the windows. Swap the fridge and range. Create a peninsula. Use the BP as storage. That creates a super efficient cockpit for wok.

Get rid of the rest and have a kitchen table. Maybe leave one wall underneath n the breakfast area as shallow storage, but all the rest is not going You Amy good af all. It's out of the action, and a waste of money.

Fat finger on phone.

Or, move to door to the back porch so you have a bigger run if cabinets on the one wall. Right now you are trying to combine two separate rooms into one. That doesn’t work. They are two separate rooms. You either leave them separate rooms, or you do something structural to actually make one room.

Sophie, I completely see how that cleans everything up and looks better. But I have issues with how I use it.
1. The fridge next to the back door seems to close up that walkway and we use that door all the time. Seems like it would be awkward.
2. Where is my pantry storage? Microwave? All the kid stuff is on that side of the kitchen. I agree that there is a lot going on over there and I’ve reworked some of it already to clean it up. Probably need to do some more. But I still need it to be functional for us.

Are either of the side or back porches major family entrances? Would you also benefit from additional mudroom storage by one of them?

I cannot do anything to any outer doors. This is what the back and side doors look like from the outside.

Pantry storage in the actual BP. MW drawer in the base cab facing the fridge. And you don’t get drive throughs to the fridge. It’s right there in the perimeter of your work zone, do others can access it without running through your knife and boiling water zone.

Or move the back door to the porch over to the right.

Or close that door up, and connect the porches to wrap all the way around.

damiarain right now the back door is the most used door. The side door isn’t but might be used more once we open it up. I have lockers going in to help contain all the kid stuff. I would prefer it right at the back door but that’s not easily done. One of my early iterations had part of the side room on the kitchen (which we are opening up) as a mud room but I couldn’t make it all work. Here is a pic of the lockers

It's a beautiful piece but I'm with Sophie on this. It's not at all practical for a kitchen island. It shouldn't drive the design, especially since it's causing storage problems for oils and spices. So, ditch it, get a proper kitchen island with drawers and pull-outs for storing glassware, oils, spices, pots, pans... all the things that need to find a home in the working part of your kitchen. Find another place in your home for this piece. But it needs to be voted off the (sorry, can't help myself) island.

You can get a vintage look and function at the same time. Here's one of my favoritist (not a word, don't care) kitchen islands.

Make your storage as functional as possible and you may not need as many cabinets as your plan calls for. That will save you money, which you could apply to a really cool, vintage feel island that makes your heart happy, and to moving the butler's pantry door between BP and kitchen.

Ok. I hear what you are saying. However, if I go with your idea of moving the door to the BP (which I think is the way to go and the reason we didn’t do that originally is because we were stuck on retaining some of the original BP cabinets) it really gives me the space I need. Why ditch the beautiful piece for lack of spice/oil storage? I feel like I can make that work with some of the ideas on this thread.
Since I own this piece already, I can try it and if it’s miserable I can always have an island built after the fact without needing to change anything else in the kitchen.

Also, I HATE how my KD did the area around the table. I’ve started reworking it but I need help. I wanted kids’ snacks and cereal etc storage over there and a microwave, toaster and fridge drawer.

Fabulous house. I think Sophie has the best idea.

Why ditch the beautiful piece for lack of spice/oil storage?

It's not just the lack of spice/oil storage. It's the lack of storage overall, plus the very worn, sloped top. How are you going to give it a level working surface so that you can prep meals or do baking projects with your kids without things rolling to the center low point? Do you plan to put a new top on the existing, leaving a gap (could be a damned nuisance to clean) between old and new top? Or? I'm curious to know how you'll solve this functional issue.

As for the BP pantry cabs affected by moving the doorway, can they be re-purposed in the kid area? Are they individual pieces or were they built as one unit? The plus side with moving them out of the BP is that you get to see them more often. You still have a lot of charm in your BP, thanks to the copper sink and counter. You're just spreading the wealth. =)

Reworking the kids' area....

Fridge drawers tend to be quite expensive (and possibly not super reliable), certainly more so than a beverage fridge. What do you want to store in fridge drawers in this area?

Let me noodle on the kids' area a bit.... to clarify, you want the cabinets in the kids' area to serve as a breakfast bar/snack zone, correct? It would help to know what specifically it is you hate about what your KD did.

The problem with trying to repurpose the originals is that we end up sacrificing the practicality of new cabinetry. My feeling about them is that our main goal is to have modern function and if we can reuse original cabinetry and still get modern function, even better.
Kids pantry - yes, breakfast bar and snack area. Fridge drawer - I’m not married to the idea but it seemed to work for a few reasons which I’ll explain later.
I’m going to dinner now and I’m going to try and draw out my ideas but I’m not as adept at the drawings as you guys are so it’s going to be a little rough.

Back to the butcher block - I’m going to go look at it. It’s in storage and I got it a long time ago. I’m not too stressed about the island at this point. If I’m reconfiguring the whole design...that I’m going to lose sleep over (not just an expression)

... I’m going to lose sleep over...

Been there. Have an adult beverage of your choice with dinner. =)

Lisa, you said lost 20lbs designing your kitchen, I’m going to turn into an alcoholic

lol! I had a hard time eating because my stomach was in knots during the remodel but I did drink. More than normal. I'm passing on sage advice given to me prior to the start of my remodel: keep the booze handy. Always.

Ok. Drinks have been had. Here’s the “kids’ area” I don’t like the microwave displayed the way it is. I don’t like all the choppy cabinets.
I want to take away the shallow cabinets and leave the counter open between the uppers and lowers. Move the (non built in) microwave down and put it behind cabinets that open and recess into the sides. Also widen that whole main cabinet feature. This will leave room on either side of the fridge drawer so maybe do those small pull outs for jam, peanut butter, pancake syrup etc.
The fridge drawer I like is Fischer Paykel cooldrawer. Will keep yogurts, cheese, fruit, milk, etc. I like the width and how the interior is set up. I’m open to being challenged on any of this.
Also, not sure why one wall of cabinets comes down lower than the other wall. Even those out. Maybe take out one wall of cabinets all together. We do have the little sink over there and got all dreamy at one point and thought about a single dishwasher drawer under that sink. Also another set of trash pullouts on that wall.
That all being said - I know nothing. Tear it apart.

Another angle

This is what I have had for the past two years and I could not be happier with both!

This gives me room for utensils, vinegars and oils, plus cooking wine etc.

This spice drawer is right between my stove and the pull-out above. Both are by Rev-a-Shelf. The pice drawer can be cut to fit your drawer size.

Thanks Anglophilia! I like the combination of utensils with the oils. Very efficient. Hadn’t thought about that. What’s the width?

Do you need that wide frieze and heavy crown molding? Because with all the 7'-high counter-to-ceiling stacks and heavy emphasis on vertical lines in a fairly narrow room it feels like, I dunno, being in a Gothic cathedral or something (especially if they were in a medium or dark wood). Like I would be ducking all the time lest something fall on me from a great height, or archers pepper me with arrows from atop the castle walls. :-D

Do you actually need the upper-upper-where's-my-stepladder cupboards?

What is the distance between pantry cab and stairway?

I'm concerned that you're not allowing enough aisle between table and breakfast bar/snack center and table. 36" isn't really enough for one kid to be sitting at the table and another making toast or using the MW. Plus there's no decent counter near the MW to make it ideal use, especially for kids.

That size aisle may work for little kids but kids grow so it will be a problem in short order, IMO. At least I know how it would have been at my house. "Mom, he's bumping my chair!" "Mom, tell him to move out of my way! I can't get the fridge drawer open!"

Here's a graphic showing the NKBA's recommended minimums for seating aisles (National Kitchen and Bath Association).

Also, do you intend to store plates, silverware, etc in this area as well as in the main part of the kitchen? If you're trying to keep the kids on the periphery as much as possible, you'll need to do this. You might want to get different plates, etc for this area so you know what goes where when you unload the DW. It will be especially helpful when you assign the chore of unloading the DW to one of the kids.

Maybe you've already mentally thought through how this area will work so this isn't an issue for you but it's what came to mind as I imagined how it might work for my family and how best to tweak the area for you.

One more question (for now, anyway). Is this an existing table? How many chairs will you have around it?

You need a real Architect or Kitchen Designer. You have a cabinet seller who is definitely earning her commission by cramming the space full of overheight unusable cabinets. But doesn’t seem to understand work flow or clearances.

Those stairs are not drawn in correctly. They do not come as far out as the picture shows. There is a radiator and a banister at the end of the stairs which both will be taken out and a landing that is not shown in the picture that will be redone. So there will be more space there. I’m going to measure when I get home (in the car for the next 8 hours.)
I have the same concern with the space between the breakfast bar and the end of the table. However, we have 5 of us in the house full time. We figure we won’t usually have anyone at that end but will have the option if we need the extra space. Right now we have a table in the middle of the current kitchen layout and it is a super tight fit so we are really used to what space is good, what is workable, and what is terrible. I’ve also walked around with a tape measure in a dozen small kitchens - so many of these old houses in our neighborhood are working with tight spaces - and tried to get a feel for what is workable. And yes we have an antique table we’d like to use. Besides being a really cool table, we also like it because it’s narrow. We can also scoot the table over a little. Or not use that antique table in that space.
We actually don’t use the MW that often (but enough that we can’t get rid of it) and where we have it in our current kitchen we don’t have a lot of counter space either. It’s never been an issue. I think there will be enough counter space over there to set a dish down.
As far as their dishes - right now we have a small set of plates, bowls, and cups that they primarily use. Our thought was to keep those items near the table.

Sophie - that is 100% correct and how I ended up here. I would love to find a designer whom I can trust instead of trying to figure this out on my own as clearly I know nothing. I’m just not sure how to go about finding that person. If you know anyone in St. Louis let me know.

For everyone saying we shouldn’t have the cabinets up to ceiling...the entire house has built ins going all the way up to the ceiling. Bryan - I agree that we need to get rid of the cabinets reaching down to the counter. Maybe what’s wrong here is what you are saying about the big frieze/molding etc. Its too much. I honestly didn’t even think about any of that but now I see it.
I need to find someone talented and experienced to help. I’ve been saying this all along but I should not be the one in charge of this.

Wendy Kuhn at Karr Bick would be one recommendation. I met her briefly years ago, but she was smart as a whip, and I like her recent work. Or I know a few in the Memphis metro that are willing to travel the 6 hours.

@Sophie, Thanks for the recommendation. I like the portfolio on the website. I’m going to call and set something up.

To answer the original question, I also think you should have the uppers on the range wall at standard height from the counter.

I skimmed the comments, and read that your butcher block is a bit low, so why can't you add a marble slab to the top, and fill in the dip? A talented carpenter can scribe a piece of wood to fit the front of the dip, for support of the marble, then stain to match. Worse case scenario is to fit a 3/4" front panel, flush with the butcher block top, and stain/distress to match. You lose the function of the butcher block, but you get to use that very cool piece, and you haven't altered it permanently.

I agree with Sophie Wheeler, about putting the sink between the two windows. The dividing wall space is fairly narrow, and you can see out of both windows as you work. You were going to have a solid wall on the left, with the corner sink, anyway, and this give you more flexibility and storage in the corner.

I took another look at the plan, and although I love the butcher block, and agree that in the right setting it could be wonderful--to get the best function from an island, you need one with a prep sink. I'm sure it's been pointed out that an island will be a barrier between the fridge and range (that is, if you want an island. No island--no problem with the fridge placement), so I agree with the poster who made the suggestion to put the fridge to the right of the door, on the same wall as the range. You can search on nightowl's kitchen--she did basically the same thing, and is very happy with the results.

Having a prep sink on the island will make a work triangle, and if you have to choose between the prep sink and the sink on the far wall, the prep sink is close enough to the table and fridge to use for both zones.

A MW drawer could go on the end of the island, facing the dining area, or on a shelf beside the fridge, if it's used mostly for reheating leftovers.

The dish storage is really too far from the table, but with all the windows, having the clean-up sink there makes sense. And while it makes sense to store dishes in drawers on the other side of the sink from the DW, you could store dishes in the shallow pantry cabinets on the left, which would get them a few steps closer to the dining area, or store them in drawers on the island, facing the clean-up sink.

Sorry if any of this has been considered and rejected. Rough ideas:

I love your the style of your house, and the butler's pantry. Good luck, and I hope you will keep us updated.

I really really appreciate all this feedback. For the amount of money we are spending, this has to be a kick ass kitchen and I need to remove all my preconceived inexperienced ideas. I reached out to Karr Bick and should be speaking to a designer tomorrow. I’m not going to show them any of my designs and see what they come up with. Thanks again for the rec, Sophie.
I’ll keep you posted!!

mamagoose, you and I were thinking along the same lines again!

I had roughed out a couple other ideas, too, Temima, but now that you're hiring a KD - one recommended by Sophie, no less - there's no need to finish them up.

I'm so glad that you are going to get expert help with this project! It would be a shame to see your beautiful home ruined by a remuddle (a bad remodel). I look forward to seeing her plan or plans, and finish selections. And I really hope you post pics once the remodel is completed.

oh, wow, I just went to Karr Bick's website! Gorgeous kitchens! Now I really can't wait to see what she comes up with! I'm excited for you!

Thank you so much for all your effort Lisa. Im still curious what some of your ideas are!
I’m really happy I decided to post here. I was ready to call off this whole project...actually I did a couple of times. I’m ready for a reset. Thanks for challenging what we had!

Temima, the utensil/oils pullout comes in both 6” and 9” widths. I have the 6”which is very adequate. I found mine on eBay - new in box -KD said I paid less than his cost.

Where in St. Louis do you live? I lived there for 19 years - still my favorite city. I lived in U City right near the Clayton line, went to church and children went to school (after starting at Flynn Park) in Ladue.

Anophilia - I grew up in the ucity/clayton area! I live in the central west end now. I absolutely love ucity houses. Almost bought one there.

Ok I know I’m going to be getting pro advice soon but of course I’m still obsessing. I messed with the layout a bit using some of the ideas here and adding some of my own. Excuse my poor drawings. But basically open the doorway to the butlers pantry, move the sink between the windows and extend that counter down, build an island that merges with a table height Seating area (maybe put a bench on the island side...I attached a pic of a similar idea but I dont like the way they did it in particular), move the fridge to the right of the back door and have microwave, toaster, pantry, etc over there.

I'm in the middle of a kitchen remodel myself, and I am putting in open shelves in a couple areas. You might consider doing open shelves instead of cabinets to either side of the range to maximize space. It would be a good place to put spices, dishes, Etc and have them accessible.

with all those windows, you might want to consider suspending glass shelves in front of them that you could put glassware and maybe some potted plants on.

Traffic paths will have to change through the kitchen. Instead of the back door to the exterior, the family will need to get used to using that side door. Which is why I suggested connecting both porches into a wrap around, and maybe closing up that back door. It gives you a MUCH better kitchen to not bisect it with traffic.

Angela - I have thought about the open shelves and love the idea of the shelves in front of the windows too. I have some pics like that saved.
Sophie - it is extremely complicated and expensive to do anything to the outside of the house. I’ve dreamed about wrapping the porch around but it’s really not worthwhile. Definitely can’t close doors off. Using the side door would be a good idea it just would take some getting used to. It also would make the main entry close to the locker area for dumping bags and coats. We park in the back so it’s natural to use the back door but it’s really not much further to take a few extra steps to the side door.

I absolutely love the look of glass shelves in front of the window, and you can build a bracket that the glass slides into so you can remove the shelves when you need to clean the windows to make them more accessible.

Also, my husband is toying with the idea of copper pipe run between the upper cabinets on either side of the hood, with hooks to hang utensils from. You could also do this under open shelving or glass shelves to hang coffee cups, utensils, pot holders, etc from, or suspend a spice rack ( I think I've seen a hanging spice rack at Ikea). You'll still get lots of light from the windows and not have to alter them, but it makes that dead space in front of the windows more useful in a kitchen with limited storage. If my kitchen window got as much light as yours seems to, I'd be lining up little pots of fresh herbs on a glass shelf. Not sure what your colors are, but I found really cute copper and teal (my accent colors) owl planters on Amazon that will look amazing with the dark grey cabinets and white quartz countertops I'm planning. Also got some large jewel toned blue glass jars to use for storage on open shelves. And a teal rectangular clay planter to stand rolled up dish towels in on a shelf.

Following this discussion and looking forward to seeing what the new kitchen designer comes up with. You have a beautiful home.

Angela, I love the look but I do worry about having so many items out in the open to gather dust and grease. Right now I have cooking utensils out on the counter and they get pretty grimy.

Spices keep best when stored in a cool, dark place. Ditto for oils, especially olive oil. So keeping them on open shelving isn't an ideal storage location. Better to use the open shelves for non-perishable items.

When you meet with the KD, ask her for ideas about how to seal up the back door without requiring expensive stone work repair. I've seen (but now can't find) photos of decorative wood panels to cover sealed up windows and doors in brick homes. So it might be possible to do as Sophie suggests: seal up the back door.

I love wrap around porches so of course, I think it would be a great addition to your home. =)

Can't wait to see what the new KD comes up with ... what a stunning home!

Closing up any doors or windows is a no-go. The house was built in 1986 and we aren’t going to do any major changes to the outside. It has a very specific look and we won’t be messing with that.
As far as the wrap around porch, we discussed it casually one lazy Saturday morning and it’s not impossible but not simple. With all the things we want to do in the house it would come a lot later, if at all. I don’t see how it really affects the kitchen unless we close up the door which just won’t happen.

I meant 1896!

First, awesome house! I would love to have found an older stone house like this. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

Perhaps someone else mentioned this and I missed it but I don't know that I would put spices and oils adjacent to any ranges or ovens. The heat is not good for them. If you go through them quickly like commercial kitchens it might be OK but if you want them to last then perhaps a cooler dark spot might be best.

Well, it’s a year later and we finally have a plan and our engineer still on speed dial. We are starting to dismantle our kitchen and begin the very slow and complicated process of renovating an 125 year old house.
I’m going to start a new post with the new design and some questions to get some feedback on a few things. Thanks for everyone who chimes in here and thanks to Sophie for suggesting Karr bick. They did a fantastic job with the design.