I live in Minneapolis and have triple pane Marvin Ultimates installed. Cuts my winter energy bill by 40%-50%. Marvin is located in Warroad Minnesota!

Harry_wild. It would be helpful to the OP or others reading this thread to explain the cost of the Marvin Ultimates triple-pane. I doubt there are any other windows on the market more expensive other than custom. Please tell us how many windows and what you paid.

I live in Minneapolis and have triple pane Marvin Ultimates installed. Cuts my winter energy bill by 40%-50%. Marvin is located in Warroad Minnesota!

Unless the windows you replaced were sheets of saran wrap I don't think so.

The funny thing is if you cover your windows in saran wrap, you will gain about the same energy savings that you'd gain by adding that 3rd pane. It's all in the air space.

40-50% is totally unrealistic unless the previous windows had no glass.

Ksc- you are actually correct this time. A well done window plastic kit is a great insulator. Most people just don’t like the hassle, the look, or the lack of permanence, not to mention that you will only have it up in the colder Months. Along that logic though, you may as well never replace your windows. The old prime window, a storm, and properly installed interior plastic should rival the performance of most replacements.

fridge2020, ksc36 What you say is amazing I had no idea it was so effective. This helps a lot with the pressure of having to replace all the windows at the same time, then you can do little by little as your budget allows you to. I thought that having that "argon" gas was a big difference as opposed to just simple air ...

I had no idea it was so effective.

3M window insulator kits can provide very considerable improvement. Since they help to reduce air movement throughout the window and allow the older window to perform better they provide greater benefit than just being a simple extra layer. As mentioned though, they are a pain to install, ugly, prevent you from opening the window, etc. We did it on numerous windows in our old house every Nov and peeled them off every March. Worked great but I'm extremely glad to not have to do it anymore.

You could also install solar shades. If your windows are in good condition they might be an alternative solution. Replacing functioning windows is rarely a good investment.

I'd agree with the others on the 3M film. Kind of a "band-aid" but very effective when it comes to saving energy in the winter months... Saying that "its all in the airspace" is not entirely true and an oversimplification to some degree, but again, the stuff works well when done right.

Argon provides added insulating value over air, but the Low-e coatings are the more important and effective aspect of the two.

Lastly, I just want to confirm that Windows on Washington is spot on in the total wall r value discussion. That's not slimy window sales guy propaganda, that comes directly from the building science side. The whole "home performance guy" vs "window guy" has been discussed quite a bit, but luckily many of the contributing professionals here have background in that area.

I just got a contractor come and tried talking me out of getting three panel windows!! I'm expecting more quotes.

Please elaborate :)

I would not eliminate a contractor on that basis but would encourage more bids.

I have an other coming tomorrow to see the windows. He said that my best by was Jeld-Wen vinyl from Menards if I don't count with a big budget. Will see :) Im glad I will get them finally replaced!

I would disagree with him on that front. Soft-Lite is going to be a much better option on that market than is Jeld-Wen if you are talking about performance, air infiltration, and engineering.

That contractor gave you terrible advice afaf. Window knowledge is not strong with that one.

"He said that my best by was Jeld-Wen vinyl from Menards"

Ugh, that is not a contractor I would consider based on that recommendation alone. I would not even let him know where I lived.

You've had several recs upthread against Jeld-wen, and you yourself said that Jeld-wen was "out of discussion". Why are you spending your time on this contractor, or spending his time too? There must be other contractors for you to talk to that aren't wanting to sell you windows you'd already decided against.

Yes ok. I will look for somebody else

Guys do you approved Milgard Vynil? They are more affordable than Marvin and Anderesen, have good reviews, are not Jeld-Wen and Champion. I could by and install with Lowes but how do I get the measurements right? Just wondering what your thought are on Milgard

AaFa

You will be very well served to hire a professional where you won't be responsible for the measurements of the replacements. If you hire someone to replace your windows and they want you to measure the openings and order the windows, then you have hired the wrong person.

You may have mentioned this previously, but where in MN is home?

oberon476 Home is Northfield, a little town south of the cities. I finally found somebody that has the same opinions as you guys. He is a local lumber that carries Marvin, Andersen and for a more affordable budget they carry a Minnesotan company called Hayfield. Have you heard about them? He says they do a good vinyl quality, that are way better than Jeld-Wen and Champion. He is going to come on Monday to take measurements and prepare quotes. I hope this one works! Even though I never heard about Hayfield he inspired me trust. toddinmn what do you think about this brand? Thanks !

Sounds promising with this new contractor... Those are well regarded wood options, and Hayfield/Richlin makes a decent vinyl window as mentioned above. Same company. The performance numbers are at or near the top level, the only catch (as Toddinmn recently commented above) is that they are only Silver label certified, meaning that the structural numbers that they publish (air leakage, DP, etc) are not certified through the program which creates a slight shadow there (Gold label is preferred and certifies both thermal and structural performance)... That said, its a solid window in my experience none the less and would likely serve you well, particularly against some of the other options that you've considered.

Lastly, I'd recommend staying on your current course with that company or someone like them. The advice from oberon476 is very sound regarding hiring an install company that takes his own measurements. Ideally, purchasing the window and install from the same company in a complete package is best to set up accountability should any problems arise. I'd also recommend against box stores on this project. While there is certainly some security in dealing with a mega-sized company like that, they generally pay installers (sub or employees) a bit less than window/exterior specialty dealers which could lead to less than stellar quality. There is a shortage of qualified pros in this industry, so its always a red flag when someone is working at a cut-rate IMO. Don't get me wrong, I spend plenty of money at these stores, installations just are not their forte IMO.

They came to take measurments 10 days ago and are pushing me to get Marvin. I am still in the wait of prices ...

What line Of Marvin?

why are they making the push?

They said that in their opinion is better to change a few windows to Marvin Integrity than doing more with Hayfield. I called today they said they would get back to me asap. Is the Integrity vinyl? I wouldn't want to go to wood again and see it rot.

it is a fiberglass window With either a fiberglass interior or wood interior.

Dont see the benefit of going this route.

AaFa,

I am very familar with Northfield and have visited there many times. There is a huge amount of glass performance knowledge along your short corridor of 35 (Cardinal CG in Northfield, SAGE Electrochromics in Faribault, and Viracon in Owatonna.

BUT Northfield is best because you have the Malt-O-Meal factory there and I love Malt-O-Meal!!

Anyway. as I mentioned above, Cardinal has one of their coating plants in Northfield, and if you are curious about window coatings and IG performance (per all the great technical posts earlier), you might give them a call and tell them that you are looking for new windows and that you are curious about Low-E coatings and would love a tour of the facility.

I can't promise that they would give you a tour of course (I don't know their policy), but they might say come on over and we will show and tell you more about LowE coatings than you ever wanted to know.

toddinmnthank you for your insight. You never know if a seller wants to sell or is telling you the truth. If you dont see an advantage of Marvin Integrity fiberglass over Hayfield vinyl I will definitely go with Hayfield because the price is better. Thank you.

oberon476 That is so interesting thank you for the info!! I agree Mat-O-Meal is a gem, too bad they sold it to Post but oh well ;)

I'd agree with Todd... and that is coming from someone that sells some Marvin product and directly competes against Richlin/Hayfield... The latter seems to better fit your needs in this case.

Thank you! Got the budget today. For two windows 680 Hayfield, 1200 Marvin. Going with Hayfield, thank you for your help! Now lets see how much the installer charges... what would be a decent price for installation?

AaFa, better check the warranty on those windows - they may not honor them if someone else installs them? Also ensure if you contract someone to install them, that that clarifies who is responsible if they put a big scratch in the middle of one, or break them, etc...

I am a bit confused about how the OP is going about this. When I have gotten quotes/bids for windows installations in my home, I've gotten them from the contractor who will be installing them. As I was reading down the thread, that's what I was assuming was happening.

The crux of a good window installation is how good is the installer. I don't know of a good contractor in my area who would do installation of windows purchased from someone else. Maybe I just don't understand how the OP is going about this. It appears s/he is getting a price to purchase and then looking for someone to install. Is that correct? Maybe it's a regional thing, but that is not how I have gone about my several windows replacements in my home. The job is with a contractor I am happy with and whose quote was for the windows and their installation. Explain please how this will work.

The contractor aka the installer is one of the installers that works for this lumber store that buys the windows. So they kind of work together. The store is going to order the windows. They passed me 650 for two Hayfield windows and bring them and the installer says he charges per time but didn't say how much! I asked a couple of times ... he didn't answer so I assume its the same price of the windows? How much does an installer charge per hour average? the one that is taking the measurements is the store, they said they were going to come once more to measure again to make sure is right before ordering ...

lookintomyeyes83 I checked the warranty and overall it says that hardware is covered for life of the window. Seal failure on the window is 20yrs ( 1st 10yrs there is no charge)(10-20yrs cost is 50%) the vinyl is covered for life of window. Does it sound good?

Marvin Integrity was quoted to one thousand with exterior fiberglass and interior wood. The option of all fiberglass was 1300. Since more than one person said that its not worth the difference in price I stuck with Hayfield

The all fiberglass should be cheaper than wood fiberglass.Don’t like the the vagueness with the install pricing. There should be a set price before contract is signed. It could work out well in your favor or vice versa. what if there are problems that need correcting, are they back on the clock again? I’d say around $50 per hour, but a good installer making a $100 per hour can outperform a bad one making $10 or an average one making $40

toddinmn thank you so much!

Vinyl or fiberglass, Never wood in MN. Not unless you keep you home so dry that you don’t mind if your skin & hair look like your 100yrs old. Wood always will eventually rot!

Agreed. You don't want something that is going to be damaged by any interior condensation.

"Never wood in MN"

Really? Why then does just about every home over about $1m in Minnesota use Marvin wood windows?

They will be finished and should be triple pane. With regards to you comment on homes over a million dollars, I think the math skews the calculus here a bit.

Probably a safe assumption that most folks in million + dollar homes are driving luxury cars. Doesn't mean that it's the best car on the road.

"They will be finished and should be triple pane."

Yes, but they are still wood and still considered the best windows available short of PH. And when I think about it, just about every PH window I've seen, including in Finland and Sweden, are... Wood.

"I think the math skews the calculus here a bit."

How so?

IMAGE.

High end look and feel, prestigious name.

Thats why thise windows are used in high end homes, its certainly not because of performance or longevity.

Could they last a long time? Sure, with proper attention. The fact is that most people dont maintain their windows and then wood ones deterioate and need replacmenet in 10-20 years

Thank you to all of the architects and designers that look down their nose at anything thats not a fancy wood window, it has those of us in the replacement business thriving!

I got wood windows in a rental in MN.

I do not have a problem with condensation and the maintenance has been zero in the 20+ years they have been there.

That's great. Anecdotal, but great. Storm windows on those Todd?

Wood is a fine material and if combined with an appropriate glazing package for a given climate, shouldn't have issues.

However...as the most recent threads have shown, folks can create interior conditions via humidity and lack of air circulation, that will create condensation issues readily and especially on double pane windows.

While a finished wood window will be more durable to condensation damage, the simple truth is that the internals of the sash are NOT painted or finished and the wood, especially the timber strand we use now, will absorb that water readily.

Does anyone really wonder why most wood warranties...even from high end suppliers, is only 10 years on the frame and sash components?

Contrast that with a fiberglass section that is exposed to water on the interior glazing side of the sash?

Yes, they do have a storm. but i have seen many older wood windows without storms do quite well with zero maintenance . Condensation is a killer even if they are vinyl . It will reek havok on the glass pack itself but wood can iften be the first signs if visable problems. That being said I agree triple panes are Great product for my climate but it is not close to being the norm.

Storms do help in this case as the condensing surface is the storm window at that point. They will frost up like crazy, but are a better sacrificial substrate.

Sure...condensation is bad for any IGU, but there is a reason that even high end clad wood windows have a 10 year warranty. They are just that much more sensitive.

I wouldn't say "NEVER wood", or "ALWAYS triple pane", but I do think that in that climate (similar to my own) both are solid advice in most cases.

@Todd, what RH levels do you have in this home if you aren't seeing condensation in single digits and subzero weather? Sheesh.

Do you not receive a rash of condensation calls from your customers anytime the weather gets frigid?

While condensation can cause issues with windows of any material depending on severity and a variety of factors, are you insinuating that wood units DON'T have issues far more frequently, and to a much higher degree of damage (ie: complete loss)?

Are you also comparing older (old growth) wood windows to modern units in terms of their susceptibility to moisture damage?

In a couple of decades, I can't remember the last time that I serviced a seal failure due to condensation accumulation, but we most certainly replace 8-25 year old wood windows rotted due to condensation damage on the daily.

Seems like you are being a little coy and/or contrarianistic (if thats a word?) with some of these answers... most of this stuff is common knowledge for folks around the replacement window business.

All I am saying is I have seen many wood windows survive my climate with zero maintenace. I am referrring to ” modern“ wood windows with rapid growth treated wood. I have also seen many fail . A lot has to do on house design, window design, conditions in and out. Each situation has there own circumstances and I judge them one by one. Clearly vinyl has an andvatage being inert. To be honest I have not had a condensation field call going on a quite a few years and I rarely install triple pane. I do get thank you’s frequently on lower heat bills though.