Efficient at what?

Able to heat or cool an area more evenly? I understand it's capacity, depending on how many wall units to regulate different temps. We had a gas furnace w/duct and I just had an HVAC quote for 24k for a ductless mini split + heat pump for upstairs and 2 wall units + heat pump for downstairs.

You must know your fuel rates, both electric cost/kWh and nat gas cost/therm. Insulate basement. Basements at or partially below grade have low heating and cooling load. Depending on your location , you may want to have zoning control for basement.

IMO

What makes a heat pump efficient isn't the same as providing the same amount of heat for a specific cost.

Efficient in this sense means less waste. Not necessarily less cost or more heat for that matter. These things can be highly dependant on your climate. While heat pump technology has greatly improved over the years a heat pump is still (IMHO) a moderate climate appliance.

Furnaces these days can achieve very close to the same efficiency as a heat pump. (97%) However, in this sense I am talking about waste, not cost. At 97% efficiency, 3% of the heat goes out the flue. The furnaces capable of such feats cost more. If you don't live in a cold climate, the cost rarely is worth the savings.

Mini splits are incapable of even temps, because they are spot heating and cooling. You would need a heating and cooling head in every room. That will greatly increase equipment and maintenance costs of the life of the equipment. Mini splits came from over seas where buildings (units or apartments) are typically very small as compared to USA homes.

Alot of this is due to the globalization of HVAC manufacturer's.

Many will try to sell you something in the real of high efficiency -- but this doesn't translate very well to the actual cost. Efficiency in this sense is directly reference as less waste.

If your electric rates are high and your gas rates are low then it may cost you more to heat the house with a heat pump. A mini split can potentially save money on cooling costs compared to a split system HVAC system. The savings are much less than just comparing SEER values.

Did the heat pump salesman explain why you should abandon your duct work and install mini split heads? Your duct work would have to be in terrible shape to consider going that route. If you are down to the studs then it would be relatively easy to install duct work and create a separate zone of the basement. I think you can spend much less than $24K and get an efficient HVAC system that will keep you comfortable.

The walls in European homes do not use 2 X 4 wall studs. There is no 3.5 inch void to run a duct. For the climates that need cooling ductless mini splits are cost effective solution even in large homes.

It's hard to generalize because of construction differences from country to country but for residences with "modern conveniences" (the majority but not all and not everywhere) heating is normally by hot water radiators, there are no HVAC ducts and AC is unknown. Most structures are "old" anyway and of masonry (stone, brick, concrete) construction and it's not uncommon to see that central heating was a retrofit. Visible pipes along baseboards and through walls are very commonly seen.

In the more populace countries - France, Germany, Benelux, UK, really hot days don't go on for weeks as is common here and A/C is not considered necessary. I lived nearly three years in that region and can attest to that but the hot days do come and it can be miserable. Only the rim around the Mediterranean has more consistently hot summers and that's where you find minisplits to be common.

Since you A. Have a basement and B. Didn't ask about cooling,you are probably in cold climate. Air to air heat pumps are not really efficient in heat mode when outdoor temperatutre are far below sub-freezing. That mean's it will operate on electric heat strips much of the time. Natural gas is probably your best choice.

need to know rates if deciding on equipment and different fuel choices!...

Elmer, My comment was not meant as a slant toward foreign made products. I was merely stating the difference in design as to how how real estate in those countries tends to be much smaller foot print than an american home.

The larger the home, the more mini splits will be required. They are more or less spot cooling systems.

What happens when you only cool a spot? An easy example is a window unit air conditioner.

This is only about design and working properly for the 'design' of an American home.

If you're living in a single hotel sized room, that is a completely different design and a ducted system is more or less unnecessary. (That's my point)

Holly, the best thing is to bring in a competent HVAC contractor and have them do a load calculation, what I think in the industry is called "Manual J". It takes the guessing and guesswork out of what is needed. Then you can compare alternatives.

Austin, with apartments in buildings, there is less flexibility. I recently visited a few detached homes in a foreign country, a warm weather area where minisplits are in use. One, a 3 bedroom ranch style house, had three heads- one in the great room (all "public" spaces), one in the master bedroom, and one on a hallway exterior wall, located near to the other bedrooms. The other, newer construction, had so-called "ductless" minisplit with 6 zones. Perhaps a cross between a ducted system and high velocity air conditioning. All kept the interiors comfortably cool on a hot day.

Thank you to all who took the time to write in. I appreciate the different perspectives.
I believe I should have prefaced we are in the PNW and cooling will only be a need for 2 months out of the year. We have a moderate climate with rare below freezing temps.
We have natural gas capacity with better rates than electric.
So many decisions!

Hi Holly,

You don't have an easy problem.

So here are a couple of points:

1. You want to be careful with "efficiency" - it's really difficult to compare that across gas vs electric.

2. It's not really efficiency that you are after - it's about cost.

So, just for example:

-Electric resistance baseboard heat is about 100% efficient

-A typical condensing gas furnace is about 92% efficient

-The electric resistance heat will cost about 2.5 times as much money to run as the gas furnace in my area.

I understand you aren't talking about electric resistance heat - you are talking about a heat pump. But the example still is an appropriate illustration of how this can be misleading.

You do not have a big heating or cooling load (I'm guessing given the climate). I think that you could be well served by either a mini-split system or a central system with gas heat. If you were in the south, for example, it could make more sense to be concerned about the efficiency of the AC.

In your climate a .92 furnace and 14 seer AC unit (I think that's minimum there) would probably be just fine. You probably wouldn't ever see the payback from anything more efficient.

Your quote on the minisplit seems kinda high... I'm saying that without knowing anything about the equipment, the installation, labor rates, etc.. but seems like a big chunk of change.

Marc Well - I'm not sure where you came up with these generalities but they aren't really helpful.

-We've already dealt with the "efficiency" issue - and in this install there's likely not to ever be a payback from ultra-efficient systems.

-Operating costs: I don't know anywhere in US where natural gas is more than electric rates. Propane perhaps, Natural gas no.

-Quietness: perhaps - or not. A ducted heating system is usually located in a basement, garage, or attic.

Safety: That's pretty much FUD

Size: not a big issue usually

Some mini splits don't require ductwork - but to hide the butt-ugly indoor units can require substantial installation costs. If you are installing in new construction it's a lot easier than retrofitting. You must have missed the shocking $24k pricetag that the OP got.

Look, I think that the mini-splits have a lot of potential - esp in new construction or in old construction where you don't care about the appearance of the indoor unit.

But the list you came up with looks like cut and paste propaganda.

So, I don't think it applies in this case - but there are some things that could sway the decision more strongly in favor of mini-split:

1. If the home is using Solar PV with the goal of the panels providing a significant portion of the energy needs.

2. If there's an opportunity to avoid gas service altogether - which would also eliminate the "facility charge" which is a base rate if you use any gas or not that pays for the infrastructure. Also if you are building new and could avoid the cost of installing gas to the property. Ditto if there's a chance of avoiding propane - which is really expensive.

3. If you are in a climate that has high cooling demands and moderate heating demands (south, for example).

I think its about time we start flagging these minisplit spam posts as just that - spam.

visually, mini splits can be objectionable to many home owners. I would recommend getting a reference and going to see a recent install.

TD